The BBC on Apple's Broken Promises

[CrazyLarry]

Kirk Sorensen the ex NASA FLiBe guy.

IF it happens the world will change in a million ways.

 

[elfick]

So if I were to agree that Apple products are the greatest thing since sliced bread, would anyone care to debate the human rights issues that apply to Apple and many others? Is it only me that is concerned when they see what can only be described as blind faith and religious fervour when new Apple products are launched? It seriously scares the **** out of me as I see it as an indicator of how broken a fundamental part of our society has become. I feel that the more secular a society becomes the bigger the void there is to fill in providing meaning for the masses. It scares me to see capitalism filling that void and what that can lead to.

With respect, why do you feel the need to turn the discussion to a religious tone using terms like "blind faith" and "religious fervor"?
I enjoy apple products and I know quite a few "fanboys" (perhaps I'm one, but I'd like to consider my enjoyment of their products tempered by realism), but I've never seen any action or reason that would have me use those terms. Excitement about new products is far from "religious fervor". Once people are murdered in the name of Apple products as they have been in the name of religion I would consider "blind faith" and "religious fervor" appropriate terms.

And pleeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaase, just for the sake of this argument, don't say Steve Jobs. Worship him privately in your own shrine and metaphorically knock on out over all your wonderful Apple products if you really have to. Oh and please no more techie talk, it's useful but much more of it and I will have to stick pins in my eyes.  [eek]

I've never heard anyone calling Steve Jobs a philanthropist. It could well be that I don't travel those circles or haven't read enough about him. I've heard him called a visionary. Maybe, maybe not... I do think he was a smart businessman and, at times, a charismatic speaker. Worship though? I haven't seen it.

Yes, I didn't address the original issue of human rights. Mainly because I'm not sure what you would debate. The vast majority of tech company products are made in China. Apple is different how?

 

[greg mann]

Whenit comes to taking advantage of Third World workers there is plenty of blame to go around. Chalk it up to 'the uneven development of capitalism.' developing countries never go from abject poverty to being on par with developed countries in one fell swoop. When I was younger, and not all that long ago, it was 'how are we ever going to compete with all that cheap labor in Japan?' Truth be told, I am old enough to remember when cheap was equated with post-war Europe! It took about two generations to change the paradigm with Japan, will probably take a couple with Mexico starting one behind Japan, and probably two at the most with China because technology is moving at a more rapid pace. Millions of Chinese families still cook over coal but as pointed out in the info I read about Sorensen they are trying to jump past us in energy technology. The bigger questionwill be whether the Chinese people wll accept the autocratic control of their government over the long term. Capitalism does not automatically equate with democracy and human rights. In fact, many would argue it is somewhat antithetical to them. You can all make your own choice on how you feel about that.

It is a conundrum for sure for those amongst us, probably most of us if not all, who prefer to support companies that treat their workers well. I do remember many years ago talking with some folks who were active in Spanish movements to get rid of Franco. We had recently bought a Spanish machine and I was feeling somewhat guilty about that. I asked if boycotting Spanish products would be a meaningful way of helping anti-Franco factions. His response was that folks there still needed to make a living regardless of the political suppression going on and a boycott would only make that more difficult. The sad fact is the child who makes 25 cents in a Blangedeshi sweatshop probably needs that 25 cents to avoid starvation. There is no way around the fact that those of us in the developed world benefit greatly from the accident of our birth. While i have quite a few Apple products I also have a great deal  of sympathy for what the OP is trying to say. The problem is that you could substitute WalMart for Apple, or many others as well. I just take some solace from the knowledge that as these societies develop, as in Europe and Japan, life has the potential to get better.

 

[SittingElf]

Apple gets the most attention BECAUSE it is so big, but for those who rail on about how terrible the employees at the Asian high-tech factories are treated, and how Apple should be spreading the wealth (implied socialism), I would suggest that those individuals look at the shirts they are wearing and the shoes on their feet....and read the labels. Many of the factories that make those products are TRULY virtual slave sweatshops....MUCH worse than any clean room factory environment and working conditions that manufacture for the tech industry. I haven't been to the Chinese factories, but I HAVE visited factories in Malaysia, Thailand, and Singapore, and the employees are generally happy and consider themselves very lucky to have jobs in those factories.

And while we're at it, please take note that Apple raises millions of dollars each year for Aids research by donating a percentage of the proceeds of the "Product Red" campaigns. This year the total was more than $70 million. They also have a donation matching program with their employees up to $10,000 per match to non-profits and charities.  Further, from an environmental standpoint, their new spaceship headquarters will be one of the most energy efficient and clean operations ever built.

Now clearly, Apple has some catching up to do on their charitable giving and grants compared to other majors, but Tim Cook is definitely on board with improving Apples philanthropy. (Started with a $50 million grant to Stanford University Hospitals recently).

While Steve Jobs was not known for being concerned about the company's charitable footprint, the OTHER Steve (Woz) was, and still is very active on a number of social and philanthropic fronts.

While Steve Jobs was the "front man" and "visionary", and given full credit for the reanimation of Apple, there is one individual without whom Apple would just be another run of the mill computer company. Without this individual, Apple product would simply not have any "mojo".  Losing this person would be a bullet in the head to Apple.... and that person is......

Sir Jonathon Ive (Joni) -- Knighted by the queen, and Senior Vice President of Design.
[attachimg=1]

Cheers,

Frank

 

[wow]

To add to Sitting Elf's comments:

Steve Jobs was the pitchman - the visionary, the ultimate definer of the product.

Jonathan Ivy is the designer who makes it all look cool, sleek, and elegant. As Sitting Elf said, no small task.

Tim Cooks genius - and yes, I think that's an appropriate word - was and is supply-chain management. He has been very active in pushing the safety and pay aspects for the employees of Apple's suppliers, as well as monitoring the environmental issues.

Like any CEO of a large multi-national corporation, he has the un-enviable task of protecting profits while still furthering the safety and living standards of the workers who build the products. I am not smart enough to know if he has done enough, or just the right amount, or what...but it does appear that they are doing something right.

And I can't answer the question on philanthropic giving. I do know that Steve Jobs often said that he would spend his fortune as needed to make sure Apple products were visionary and game changing. He didn't really seem to care about the money...

 

[andy5405]

So if I were to agree that Apple products are the greatest thing since sliced bread, would anyone care to debate the human rights issues that apply to Apple and many others? Is it only me that is concerned when they see what can only be described as blind faith and religious fervour when new Apple products are launched? It seriously scares the **** out of me as I see it as an indicator of how broken a fundamental part of our society has become. I feel that the more secular a society becomes the bigger the void there is to fill in providing meaning for the masses. It scares me to see capitalism filling that void and what that can lead to.

With respect, why do you feel the need to turn the discussion to a religious tone using terms like "blind faith" and "religious fervor"?
I enjoy apple products and I know quite a few "fanboys" (perhaps I'm one, but I'd like to consider my enjoyment of their products tempered by realism), but I've never seen any action or reason that would have me use those terms. Excitement about new products is far from "religious fervor". Once people are murdered in the name of Apple products as they have been in the name of religion I would consider "blind faith" and "religious fervor" appropriate terms.

And pleeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaase, just for the sake of this argument, don't say Steve Jobs. Worship him privately in your own shrine and metaphorically knock on out over all your wonderful Apple products if you really have to. Oh and please no more techie talk, it's useful but much more of it and I will have to stick pins in my eyes.  [eek]

I've never heard anyone calling Steve Jobs a philanthropist. It could well be that I don't travel those circles or haven't read enough about him. I've heard him called a visionary. Maybe, maybe not... I do think he was a smart businessman and, at times, a charismatic speaker. Worship though? I haven't seen it.

Yes, I didn't address the original issue of human rights. Mainly because I'm not sure what you would debate. The vast majority of tech company products are made in China. Apple is different how?

I used those terms to perhaps over-emphasise my point but I think they still have some relevance. If I were to say the over-excitement created around Apple products I don't think it would capture what is going on because it is so much more than that. I see very clever marketing people filling a void in people's lives that could be filled by something else. That's why I would like to see the emphasis change on who we "worship" from the business world. Then maybe at a grass roots level people would start to give back into the communities they live in, enriching the lives of others and themselves in the process.

Re the Steve Jobs and worship thing I would like to respectfully disagree. The outpouring of grief at his death was entirely disproportionate to what he achieved in life IMO. If you take out the business success, which is what so much of it was about, then I'm not sure what we were left with. Whatever it was didn't warrant the reaction and there are people who die everyday far more worthy of the adulation Steve Jobs got. 

 

[wow]

Re the Steve Jobs and worship thing I would like to respectfully disagree. The outpouring of grief at his death was entirely disproportionate to what he achieved in life IMO. If you take out the business success, which is what so much of it was about, then I'm not sure what we were left with. Whatever it was didn't warrant the reaction and there are people who die everyday far more worthy of the adulation Steve Jobs got.

Please contrast that to - say - the death of Michael Jackson?

 

[CrazyLarry]

Re the Steve Jobs and worship thing I would like to respectfully disagree. The outpouring of grief at his death was entirely disproportionate to what he achieved in life IMO. If you take out the business success, which is what so much of it was about, then I'm not sure what we were left with. Whatever it was didn't warrant the reaction and there are people who die everyday far more worthy of the adulation Steve Jobs got.

Turtleneck sweater promotion?

His plain black sweaters struck me as the most scintilating and / or positive part of his personality.

 

[andy5405]

Re the Steve Jobs and worship thing I would like to respectfully disagree. The outpouring of grief at his death was entirely disproportionate to what he achieved in life IMO. If you take out the business success, which is what so much of it was about, then I'm not sure what we were left with. Whatever it was didn't warrant the reaction and there are people who die everyday far more worthy of the adulation Steve Jobs got.

Please contrast that to - say - the death of Michael Jackson?

He appears to me to have been a much much nicer guy. He wrote and performed the Thriller album.

I think adulation for pop stars is more acceptable though as I don't think we are kidding ourselves in the same way. An Englishman once said "If music be the food of love, play on". Music is a much more emotional thing and it could be argued that Steve Jobs has facilitated sharing that joy more than any other. Perhaps he's not such a bad guy after all. 

OMG, did I really say that?  [scared]

 

[sae]

Many of the factories that make those products are TRULY virtual slave sweatshops....MUCH worse than any clean room factory environment and working conditions that manufacture for the tech industry. I haven't been to the Chinese factories, but I HAVE visited factories in Malaysia, Thailand, and Singapore, and the employees are generally happy and consider themselves very lucky to have jobs in those factories.

That's the thing though.

No one on this planet has their buying power. No one has their ability to affect change down the supply chain because of their size and focus on a handful of products.

So while they champion human rights and ethics, instead of affecting change and giving these workers internationally accepted working conditions, they go ahead and load everyone's iTunes with a U2 album that no one wanted, to the tune of $150 million.

The repeated lip service is patronizing and is what really grinds people's gears.

 

[SittingElf]

It is disingenuous to allude that Apple is not working to improve contractor's employees work conditions.

Two years ago, they were already working on the issue...as related below:

By Katie Marsal
Thursday, December 27, 2012, 12:42 pm PT (03:42 pm ET)
After intense scrutiny of its factory working conditions, Foxconn — which builds most of Apple's products — has made significant changes for its workers in China.

The improvements made by Foxconn were highlighted in a story published this week by The New York Times. Authors Keith Bradsher and Charles Duhigg revealed that a high-ranking official from Apple held a "critical meeting" with Foxconn's top executives in March to discuss working conditions in the company's Chinese factories.

As a result of those meetings, Foxconn promised to implement a number of "wide-ranging reforms," including reducing workers' hours and significantly boosting wages. Other minor changes focused on employee safety and comfort: protective foam on low ceilings in stairwells, automatic shut-off features on machines, and cushioned seats for assembly line workers.

They continue to establish rules and guidelines for their manufacturers. I'm not exactly sure what you expect them to do. It appears that many think that just because Apple is the second most valuable company in the world, that they should be dictatorial to the companies they contract with. They are putting an extreme amount of pressure for improvements, if for no other reason than they don't like the bad publicity that occurs when their suppliers are treating their employees like dirt.

Oh... and Apple HAS tried to move manufacturing to the USA. Unfortunately the latest endeavor, financed by Apple, but not owned by them, failed miserably and declared bankruptcy even before getting the first materials out the door.  Apple has started U.S. assembly of some products, beginning with the new Mac Pro. They promise more to come. I believe them.

Cheers,
Frank

 

[Roseland]

"Steve Jobs was not known for being concerned about the company's charitable footprint".

Under SJ, Apple matched employee contributions to charities.  I believe this still goes on.

And to those that continue knocking Apple for their suppliers' working conditions:

The conditions at Pegatron/Foxconn are, I gather, much better that at other employers; that's why they have huge queues every time they announce they are hiring.

Can anyone name another company that it the least bit concerned about its suppliers' working conditions?

No, I thought not.

Andrew

PS:  I'm not an Apple fan boy; I only bought my first iPhone last year.  But I do recognise quality when I see it.

 

[wow]

Re the Steve Jobs and worship thing I would like to respectfully disagree. The outpouring of grief at his death was entirely disproportionate to what he achieved in life IMO. If you take out the business success, which is what so much of it was about, then I'm not sure what we were left with. Whatever it was didn't warrant the reaction and there are people who die everyday far more worthy of the adulation Steve Jobs got.

Please contrast that to - say - the death of Michael Jackson?

He appears to me to have been a much much nicer guy. He wrote and performed the Thriller album.

I think adulation for pop stars is more acceptable though as I don't think we are kidding ourselves in the same way. An Englishman once said "If music be the food of love, play on". Music is a much more emotional thing and it could be argued that Steve Jobs has facilitated sharing that joy more than any other. Perhaps he's not such a bad guy after all. 

OMG, did I really say that?  [scared]

You just - finally - summarized Steve Jobs. He didn't care greatly about money. He didn't care greatly about charities (although he did set up the corporate matching program - probably at some else's suggestion). He didn't care greatly about making employees happy, UNLESS they contributed to a product that he was championing.

What he DID care about was making "insanely great" products. He insisted that they be friendly, elegant, and 'just worked'. He demanded only the best, without compromise. And in doing so, he changed the world.

 

[Paul G]

You just - finally - summarized Steve Jobs. He didn't care greatly about money. He didn't care greatly about charities (although he did set up the corporate matching program - probably at some else's suggestion). He didn't care greatly about making employees happy, UNLESS they contributed to a product that he was championing.

What he DID care about was making "insanely great" products. He insisted that they be friendly, elegant, and 'just worked'. He demanded only the best, without compromise. And in doing so, he changed the world.

And that pretty much sums up Steve Jobs IMO, he was about the products and changed the world in the process. Whether or not he was nice or an ahole, philanthropist, buyer of cheap labor, etc is a distraction from his contribution.

 

[andy5405]

Well, I think I'm going to agree and wonder whether or not I'm in a glass house. I will still remain worried about the tendency of people to over emphasise the importance of technology products in their lives. At the same time I have to recognise that I'm a FOG member and I do it myself. My Festool tools are great, no doubt about that, but I'm probably doing a very similar thing at times in the way I engage with the Festool brand as some Apple enthusiasts do with their preferred brand.

 

[greg mann]

Well, I think I'm going to agree and wonder whether or not I'm in a glass house. I will still remain worried about the tendency of people to over emphasise the importance of technology products in their lives. At the same time I have to recognise that I'm a FOG member and I do it myself. My Festool tools are great, no doubt about that, but I'm probably doing a very similar thing at times in the way I engage with the Festool brand as some Apple enthusiasts do with their preferred brand.

This may be one of the most honest examples of self-assessment I have read in quite some time. [not worthy]

 

[andy5405]

Well, I think I'm going to agree and wonder whether or not I'm in a glass house. I will still remain worried about the tendency of people to over emphasise the importance of technology products in their lives. At the same time I have to recognise that I'm a FOG member and I do it myself. My Festool tools are great, no doubt about that, but I'm probably doing a very similar thing at times in the way I engage with the Festool brand as some Apple enthusiasts do with their preferred brand.

This may be one of the most honest examples of self-assessment I have read in quite some time. [not worthy]

I don't think it's that honest. It was an olive branch certainly but it doesn't change my view that Apple could be doing so much more. They are talking the talk whilst countless thousands of individuals do more to change the world on a daily basis than Apple could ever conceive. Millions walk the walk everyday and go the extra mile to enrich other's lives in so many ways and don't need adulation for it.

Anyway, it was IBM who changed the world. (I'm laughing so hard thinking of the fanboys choking on their cornflakes!!) Nonetheless it's true and I have no allegiance , it's just a well documented fact. So here's a project for anyone who still has some old Apple hardware kicking around.

Emulate this (pun fully intended!):

http://www.pcworld.com/article/237878/can_you_do_real_work_with_the_30_year_old_ibm_5150_.html

 

[Wuffles]

Anyway, it was IBM who changed the world.

They certainly did...when they leased their calculating machinery to a certain German government in 1933.

 

[Paul G]

So here's a project for anyone who still has some old Apple hardware kicking around.

Emulate this (pun fully intended!):

http://www.pcworld.com/article/237878/can_you_do_real_work_with_the_30_year_old_ibm_5150_.html

I used a 1984 128k Mac for real work for many years through college, and for many years since much of the computing world has been trying to emulate the work of Apple, mainly while under the leadership of Steve Jobs. I get that you don't like fanboys, I've been an Apple user for 30 years and I kinda laugh at the fanboys myself, but it takes a certain amount of contempt to not recognize how Steve Jobs influenced the world. It was about 2 years or so until I opened my manual on that '84 mac, took me about an hour or so to get up and running with nothing but a simple how to card while my college roommate spent days flipping dips and God knows what else to get his IBM running. While he memorized his DOS and got those keyboard overlays to keep track of his software command keys I clicked icons and used pull down menus. My 128k mac got upgraded to 1 meg and a external hard drive made a huge difference with the floppy swapping. It's still in the garage today and was working fine until the day I finally retired it, no idea if the floppies are still good but if so I suspect it would fire up just fine today. No time though to try, I've got nothing to prove. The ongoing pursuit by Windows of Macs OSs has proven the point that in many respects Apple was the innovation leader even when not the market leader. It happened as well with ipod, iphone, ipad, maybe not the first to market but leaped way ahead of the predecessors and redefined their categories. Apple and Steve had plenty of flops too, fanboys try to block them out of their memory but no one bats 1,000.

Have others also changed the world in the same timeframe as Steve and Apple? Of course, anyone suggesting otherwise has their heads firmly inserted in their backsides. And while the relative value can be debated, Steves contributions are unmistakeable. And the fanboys will be surprised to learn that the world of technology will continue to change without Steve Jobs. In those 30 years I've never once stood in line on the first day of an Apple product release, never understood that mentality in any tech products. But those fanboys exist with all popular products, xbox and playstation, Warcraft, and even Windoze comes to mind. Oh well, if buggy first releases makes some people feel special then so be it.

 

[Roseland]

I'm sure if we looked at Makita or DeWalt forums there would be similar comments where people laughed at Festool being 2x the price etc etc.  And probably didn't understand the enthusiasm on this forum.

With Apple, you either "get it", or you don't.  Just like with Festool.

As I said before, the individual products are good, but it's the whole system that make Apple (& Festool) great.

Andrew