The BBC on Apple's Broken Promises

[andy5405]

So here's a project for anyone who still has some old Apple hardware kicking around.

Emulate this (pun fully intended!):

http://www.pcworld.com/article/237878/can_you_do_real_work_with_the_30_year_old_ibm_5150_.html

I used a 1984 128k Mac for real work for many years through college, and for many years since much of the computing world has been trying to emulate the work of Apple, mainly while under the leadership of Steve Jobs. I get that you don't like fanboys, I've been an Apple user for 30 years and I kinda laugh at the fanboys myself, but it takes a certain amount of contempt to not recognize how Steve Jobs influenced the world. It was about 2 years or so until I opened my manual on that '84 mac, took me about an hour or so to get up and running with nothing but a simple how to card while my college roommate spent days flipping dips and God knows what else to get his IBM running. While he memorized his DOS and got those keyboard overlays to keep track of his software command keys I clicked icons and used pull down menus. My 128k mac got upgraded to 1 meg and a external hard drive made a huge difference with the floppy swapping. It's still in the garage today and was working fine until the day I finally retired it, no idea if the floppies are still good but if so I suspect it would fire up just fine today. No time though to try, I've got nothing to prove. The ongoing pursuit by Windows of Macs OSs has proven the point that in many respects Apple was the innovation leader even when not the market leader. It happened as well with ipod, iphone, ipad, maybe not the first to market but leaped way ahead of the predecessors and redefined their categories. Apple and Steve had plenty of flops too, fanboys try to block them out of their memory but no one bats 1,000.

Have others also changed the world in the same timeframe as Steve and Apple? Of course, anyone suggesting otherwise has their heads firmly inserted in their backsides. And while the relative value can be debated, Steves contributions are unmistakeable. And the fanboys will be surprised to learn that the world of technology will continue to change without Steve Jobs. In those 30 years I've never once stood in line on the first day of an Apple product release, never understood that mentality in any tech products. But those fanboys exist with all popular products, xbox and playstation, Warcraft, and even Windoze comes to mind. Oh well, if buggy first releases makes some people feel special then so be it.

A sensible outlook at last. Everybody plagiarised everybody, always did and always will. Apple have played their part undoubtedly but all this Jobs changed he world routine is beyond ridiculous. The explosion in the information age happened when Apple were in their own Dark Ages. I was there at the heart of it dealing with businesses ranging in size from tiny to large corporates. Apple just didn't feature apart from the graphic design side of things but none of that shaped the revolution and the explosion of LANs and WANs that predated the information sharing world the public are aware of now.

I really don't care who uses what machine but attempts at rewriting history are always misguided and I hope it's only the user base. If Apple buy into it, it's the same arrogance that saw them fall from grace first time round. Jobs came back once but he can't come back from the dead. I bet there's even fanboys that would disagree with that one!

 

[AlexThePalex]

With Apple, you either "get it", or you don't.  Just like with Festool.

Uhm, no.

 

[andy5405]

With Apple, you either "get it", or you don't.  Just like with Festool.

Uhm, no.

Why does the analogy break down for you? I have always thought Apple is a premium well designed  product. My beef has always been that their place in tech history and it's influence on our lives is so often exaggerated or misunderstood by many of it's users to the detriment of other important players.

 

[andy5405]

As I said before, the individual products are good, but it's the whole system that make Apple (& Festool) great.

There are many many times that I have wanted to buy into the Apple system approach. I have had so much grief over the years trying to get a PC to share information with a smartphone. I like using Outlook as it satisfies my requirements in many ways and I have always been happy with my Android phones. However getting them to sync has never been easy. I've finally got it nailed after lots of failed attempts over the years at using third party software to bridge the gap.

However I simply couldn't afford an all Apple solution. I've stretched myself over the years to afford my Festool tools and spent way beyond my means at times to buy Festool stuff. I couldn't afford two premium products in my life and Festool always got priority. It's so easy for me to "get" software for a PC too and that would be much harder for me in the Apple world. I didn't ever want to get into running a virtual machine either.

It is the fact that IBM and Gates made their products cheap that had the biggest contribution to shaping the information age. Yes they ripped off a lot of Apple ideas in doing it but I guess Henry Ford copied somebody but he had the vision to bring his product to a mass market and influenced far more people than Rolls Royce ever could.

 

[Wuffles]

There are many many times that I have wanted to buy into the Apple system approach. I have had so much grief over the years trying to get a PC to share information with a smartphone. I like using Outlook as it satisfies my requirements in many ways and I have always been happy with my Android phones. However getting them to sync has never been easy. I've finally got it nailed after lots of failed attempts over the years at using third party software to bridge the gap.

It's sometimes quite hard work getting Apple "ithings" to communicate too (if it makes you feel any better), but the great thing is that when they don't, due to the closed architecture nature of some of their products, it's relatively easy to rectify.

I've stretched myself over the years to afford my Festool tools and spent way beyond my means at times to buy Festool stuff. I couldn't afford two premium products in my life and Festool always got priority.

That pretty much makes you a Festool fanboi, by your own admittance. That's funny. [wink]

You'd argue that Festool tools hold their value no doubt, and when the time comes to move on to something else (obviously Festool in your case) you will easily get decent money for the item you are shifting?

Just like Apple products really.

It is the fact that IBM and Gates made their products cheap that had the biggest contribution to shaping the information age.

No. IBM and Microsoft have never made their products cheap, ever. Never ever. Not once. Never. Goes against their ethos entirely. Although IBM did perhaps do a sweet deal for Messrs Hitler and Co.

However, IBM "compatible" devices made the business world sit up and take notice during the dalliance with local system architecture, before it all went backwards again.

I used to sell Philips computers, when everyone and their dog were making IBM compatible machines. I even sold Lucky Goldstar & Commodore IBM compatible machines.

Yes they ripped off a lot of Apple ideas.

No, they all ripped off Xerox, for most of the good stuff.

There's a quality "straight to video" film with Carter from ER playing Jobs from years ago, it's called Pirates of Silicone Valley and it a good watch. I reckon it's factually not far off the money, and this was made before the real resurgence in Apple too, so it's less glossy.

 

[Paul G]

....
It is the fact that IBM and Gates made their products cheap that had the biggest contribution to shaping the information age. Yes they ripped off a lot of Apple ideas in doing it but I guess Henry Ford copied somebody but he had the vision to bring his product to a mass market and influenced far more people than Rolls Royce ever could.

Funny you mention Ford, yes he changed the world and used that success and influence for some despicable things, but that doesn't change the fact he changed the world  http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/interview/henryford-antisemitism/

 

[andy5405]

I've stretched myself over the years to afford my Festool tools and spent way beyond my means at times to buy Festool stuff. I couldn't afford two premium products in my life and Festool always got priority.

That pretty much makes you a Festool fanboi, by your own admittance. That's funny. [wink]

You'd argue that Festool tools hold their value no doubt, and when the time comes to move on to something else (obviously Festool in your case) you will easily get decent money for the item you are shifting?

Just like Apple products really.

I've already admitted to the similarity but my Festool stash pales into insignificance compared to many I have seen. So I'm guessing I'm not a fanboy but that's what a fanboy would say anyway so my views on myself count for nothing! However it does seriously worry me how much I feel I need certain tools at certain times and that desire is fuelled by some strange maybe subconscious notion that this next purchase is going to make everything right. I'm not sure what everything or right is in this context but I'm sure that myself and many others get them both very wrong in the anticipation that leads to either a purchase or slapping yourself and stepping back from the brink.

Either way I'm sure the allegiance of both Apple and Festool fans is very similar and all the time that is associated with quality I'm comfortable. However if the Festool community picked out a figure amongst the Festool bigwigs and started elevating their status towards that of a deity then I'd ebay the lot tomorrow and buy Dewalt. Or join the cult, who knows, it would depend what else was going on at the time. I do have heroes, two in fact, and one of them is Spike Milligan. I love so many of his quotes but one that stands out is: "When I look back, the fondest memory is not really of the Goons, it's of a girl called Julia with enormous breasts."

There's more to life to than tech gadgets and tools.

 

[Paul G]

If you've bought a Festool (or Apple) wearable and wear it with pride of your brand choice you might be a fanboy.

 

[wow]

If you've bought a Festool (or Apple) wearable and wear it with pride of your brand choice you might be a fanboy.

Yes for Apple - but not in the last decade.

No for Festool - but I've only been a fan/customer for a little over a year. I do have a T-shirt that I was given at a Demo, but I can't decide if I want to wear it or save it. Does that ALSO make me a fanboy?

 

[sae]

I've always made it a rule that I don't wear the brands that I own.

Not because I don't like supporting them, but because it gets tacky quickly.

This mostly stems from my disdain of BMW owners clad head-to-toe at car shows, seeing Ducati owners wearing the full Ducati leathers, etc.

I have a McLaren F1 shirt though, and don't mind nerding out every now and then, because it's pretty clear I don't own a Formula 1 car.

 

[andy5405]

All this means I'm not a fanboy of any brand and have my feet on the ground. ;D

I'm actually against wearing any branding or logos completely. Part of this is something to do with my own form of snobbery. I think we're all snobs in some way even if we don't admit to it. Some of it is because it would make me feel silly and I do remember receiving two complimentary Festool caps with a large purchase. There was no way in a million years I could wear one as I would have felt such a knob. I don't know why exactly but I wouldn't have been comfortable. The other big part is what I see as exploitation of the masses by paying premiums to wear company logos. People definitely pay premiums to wear certain logos on their clothing and often the price in now way reflects the value of the item of clothing the logo is on. If you're paying  £20 for an item that would have a value of £5 unbranded that's an awful lot of money to pay a company to use your body as free advertising. The company would actually be paying in all other circumstances to get their brand displayed. I'm more than aware that an advert on my body wouldn't be as effective as one placed on a Formula 1 driver but I would still expect some tiny payment. I would therefore be looking at paying £4.95 for a £5 T-shirt if I'm displaying their brand on my body and would no way entertain a £15 premium.

 

[AlexThePalex]

With Apple, you either "get it", or you don't.  Just like with Festool.

Uhm, no.

Why does the analogy break down for you? I have always thought Apple is a premium well designed  product. My beef has always been that their place in tech history and it's influence on our lives is so often exaggerated or misunderstood by many of it's users to the detriment of other important players.

People here, the Apple fans, are always so quick to put Apple and Festool in the same league. And it's not true. The only thing they have in common is the premium price point.

Festool asks a premium price and then proceeds to deliver a premium experience for both demanding and less demanding users. Tools that not only give you more possibilities than the competition, but also last longer.

Apple asks a premium price and then delivers a premium experience for the less demanding customer but leaves the more demanding customer in the dark. The ease of accesibility comes with a price, lacking advanced features and putting severe restrictions on what can be done with their products compared to other platforms such as Windows or Android. To top it all off, Apple expects you to pay the same money next year for the same product that can fit one extra icon on the screen. That means, if your Apple product made it to next year, unlike Festools that are meant to serve you decades.

 

[AlexThePalex]

The other big part is what I see as exploitation of the masses by paying premiums to wear company logos. People definitely pay premiums to wear certain logos on their clothing and often the price in now way reflects the value of the item of clothing the logo is on. If you're paying  £20 for an item that would have a value of £5 unbranded that's an awful lot of money to pay a company to use your body as free advertising. The company would actually be paying in all other circumstances to get their brand displayed. I'm more than aware that an advert on my body wouldn't be as effective as one placed on a Formula 1 driver but I would still expect some tiny payment. I would therefore be looking at paying £4.95 for a £5 T-shirt if I'm displaying their brand on my body and would no way entertain a £15 premium.

It's not advertising, it's a gang sign.

 

[Roseland]

Alex, I hate to say it, but you clearly don't get Apple.

Yes, there is software for PCs that's not available for Macs, but it's true the other way round too.

The only difference is that if you just have to have that piece of PC software, you can run it on a Mac, using BootCamp, Parallels, Fusion or WINE.

You can't run Mac software on a PC.  Now whose limited?

And yes, the average PC costs less than the average Mac, and PCs have 90% market share.  But did you know that for computers costing over $1000, Mac have 90% market share?

And every cost of ownership analysis I've seen shows that over the lifetime, Macs cost no more to run because of the savings in antivirus etc.

Andrew

 

[CrazyLarry]

I'm sure if we looked at Makita or DeWalt forums there would be similar comments where people laughed at Festool being 2x the price etc etc.  And probably didn't understand the enthusiasm on this forum.

With Apple, you either "get it", or you don't.  Just like with Festool.

As I said before, the individual products are good, but it's the whole system that make Apple (& Festool) great.

Andrew

There's no comparison at all, Apple isn't systemic in an amplifying sense but in a sales and marketing optimisation sense... Festool may want to go there but it's not gong to work because it's all about atoms not bits and if company X makes a better planer / sander / drill than festool does for that piece of wood or concrete then it will be evident in the sales straight away because there is no lock in. The only area I can see that is like that is centrotec and look how hard a job they have convincing people it's worth it for the premium...

When an Apple product goes wrong replacement is the default option whether new or old because if something is returned under warranty as like as not a new replacement is lower cost for Apple than the technician time to fix the return. That economic argument may well be entirely true but it is driven by the design.

Now take say a track saw and look at how much can be user serviced in the field, I've had an occaision where a Festool tech talked me through way more disassembly than I would have jumped into on my own not because I couldn't but because of 'warranty fear' but he clearly knew the design was good enough, simple enough, robust enough that I'd have to be quite a muppet not to follow the built in clues on reassembly.

Try that with an Apple device other than a desktop Mac!

That doesn't mean Festool are perfect but they have Fein and Hilti and Mirka and Bosch and even Dewalt product in some areas as good as or better than theirs, which is probably why from what I've seen even the most ardent Festool fans are realists and pragmatic where their living is concerned; Festool kit gets a place in the shop or van IF it deserves it not because of the label.

 

[andy5405]

And every cost of ownership analysis I've seen shows that over the lifetime, Macs cost no more to run because of the savings in antivirus etc.

Andrew

Buying a PC and not visiting dodgy porn sites is an effective low cost of ownership strategy then. I had no idea what the real attraction behind Apple ownership was until now!

 

[andy5405]

The other big part is what I see as exploitation of the masses by paying premiums to wear company logos. People definitely pay premiums to wear certain logos on their clothing and often the price in now way reflects the value of the item of clothing the logo is on. If you're paying  £20 for an item that would have a value of £5 unbranded that's an awful lot of money to pay a company to use your body as free advertising. The company would actually be paying in all other circumstances to get their brand displayed. I'm more than aware that an advert on my body wouldn't be as effective as one placed on a Formula 1 driver but I would still expect some tiny payment. I would therefore be looking at paying £4.95 for a £5 T-shirt if I'm displaying their brand on my body and would no way entertain a £15 premium.

It's not advertising, it's a gang sign.

Are you saying that if I saw 4 guys, who are all grandparents, hanging out somewhere all wearing Festool merchandise that they may have recently been involved in a drive by shooting?  [scared]

 

[CrazyLarry]

Alex, I hate to say it, but you clearly don't get Apple.

Yes, there is software for PCs that's not available for Macs, but it's true the other way round too.

The only difference is that if you just have to have that piece of PC software, you can run it on a Mac, using BootCamp, Parallels, Fusion or WINE.

You can't run Mac software on a PC.  Now whose limited?

And yes, the average PC costs less than the average Mac, and PCs have 90% market share.  But did you know that for computers costing over $1000, Mac have 90% market share?

And every cost of ownership analysis I've seen shows that over the lifetime, Macs cost no more to run because of the savings in antivirus etc.

Andrew

Name some major software that isn't recompiled for the PC market?

There's little sense in not cross compiling to PC's when they are such a huge marketplace unless it's a historically closed shop such as music (which was previously an Amiga patch) or less so lately graphics where linux clustering has blown a hole in the Apple grasp (also previously an Amiga patch)

History and market penetration has more to do with buying trends than some all incompasing capabilities those linux clusters doing huge rendering and compositing jobs could be PC hardware or Mac or Unix specific hardware but almost always it's generic PC hardware because of price.

The Mac advantage is 1) it's what you already know 2) it's what your customer (supplier) knows 3) it fits your image or her image or both.

Notice how all three of those lend themselves to a premium price no additional engineering required!

Is that a coincidence?

 

[CrazyLarry]

"When I look back, the fondest memory is not really of the Goons, it's of a girl called Julia with enormous breasts."

Lesson of the Day methinks

Worth AT LEAST 24 hours reflection, possibly it's own topic!

 

[andy5405]

And yes, the average PC costs less than the average Mac, and PCs have 90% market share.  But did you know that for computers costing over $1000, Mac have 90% market share?

I read a very interesting book called Thinking Fast and Slow by Daniel Kahneman. He is a Nobel prize winner. The book reveals how we all think irrationally so much of the time and even well trained statisticians completely misinterpret statistics. On that basis would you like to add to the party what your quoted statistics mean?