The new Festool parallel guides are great!

[honeydoman]

steve,

thanks for the information I do basically the same thing ripping up sheets for units so repeat is often. 

 

[john ferri]

This product looks great for accurately dimensioning large format sheet goods.  One topic I have not seen addressed is kickback--the workpiece looks to be trapped in the jig. I frequently use the Festool longitudinal stop (45 bucks) to accomplish many of these tasks on a smaller scale, but the stop must be raised to prevent kickback.  Is this not an issue with these new guides?

JF

 

[FestoolMike]

I thought that these would allow me to sell my table saw.  However, it doesn't appear that these would be a good alternative if you are ripping pieces for 2" face frames from 8" wide cherry boards.  Is my assumption not based in reality?  Are these really only suited to working on sheet goods?

Thanks in advance for you opinions.

Mike

 

[fshanno]

Well, I've had a set from before the release date (get loaned a set for evaluation and don't plan on returning them)

I have tried them pointing in pretty much every compass direction and haven't found any discernable advantage to that concept.

Still impressed with them in fact, every time I need to make more than one cut I use the guides, and for most cross cuts I put one guide in place to ensure a right angle cut, (this device is also the "T" square for a guide rail that so many have wished for).

Are they worth it? like so many (maybe all) Festool products, there is no one size fits all answer to that question. For me (still cutting plywood all day despite having sold the custom cabinet business)  I am using them constantly, they are a bit of a PIA to install and remove from the rail with a minimal clearance opening which must be slid on from the end of the rail and two locking clamps to secure it once it's mounted, (one on top, and one underneath the rail). it's not quite as slick as one would hope for, but then all that mounting hardware is probably required to get the level of accuracy as a square.

The ideal would probably be to leave one guide attached to a short rail for crosscuts and add the second (or move both to a longer rail when needed)

However, in my experience I usually need to cut some piece of plywood to a particular width (which the guides do perfectly on the long rail - it's as accurate as running the sheet over a tablesaw without the strain and discomfort of hauling full sheets around).
Then I need to cross cut that strip into lengths, usually at least two, sometimes more - again the guides excel at providing the accuracy and consistency that is otherwise difficult to obtain.

Still love these things, they are not perfect, but ARE always better than the alternative method of doing the task.

Steve,

My dealer has a set waiting for me but I've got cold feet.  I have a few questions if you have time.

It looks like the FS-PA is basically built for 3/4" material.  Ripping 1/2" and 1/4" looks impractical.  Is that a fair assessment?

What's the widest possible rip?

Is the t-square application accurate enough for cabinet carcasses?

Do you think it would be possible to splice the two arms together some way enabling long stopped crosscuts? 

 

[Steve Jones]

Fshanno,

"It looks like the FS-PA is basically built for 3/4" material.  Ripping 1/2" and 1/4" looks impractical.  Is that a fair assessment?"
They would probably work ok for 1/2" (that's about the thickness of the rails) less than that and they would be holding the guide rail off the material.
Ideally your support or table would be the same width as the piece you want to cut, it would be easy to use these on a stack of sheets of any size, a couple of scrap pieces under the top sheet would prevent damage to the next piece down in the stack and allow one or more pieces of scrap to support the end of the guides. (my first suggestion for an improvement to the design would be to add a tab to the movable stops that would sit on top of the target piece to stop the rails (which sit outside the edge of the sheet) from simply hanging in space)

"What's the widest possible rip?"
about 25 1/2"

"Is the t-square application accurate enough for cabinet carcasses?"
Yes, I spent the first few days scribing a line with a very accurate square and then using the guide as a "T" square on the rail - it never missed being spot on once.
(all that twaddle about setting the adjustment screws is to entertain the anal - I haven't touched the screws the connector to the rail is so solid and locks into place over the rail track dead on with no movement I found no need to fiddle with them)

"Do you think it would be possible to splice the two arms together some way enabling long stopped crosscuts?  "
Since the quides have what appears to be a standard "T" track on the inner face (which the stops slide in) it should be pretty simple to arrange some kind of extension to move the stops further out, I seem to remember my old Incra jig fence used to have an extension piece that ran inside a "T" track with a stop - something like that would be light and simple to add.

On re-reading your question I think you intended to simply add the two quides together for more reach - maybe that could be done with the standard guide rail connectors (since they fit inside the "T" track on the rails) but you'd have the heavy and bulky rail connector at the other end getting in the way and adding to the weight unless you unbolted it which is probably more trouble than it's worth.

Mike,
"I thought that these would allow me to sell my table saw.  However, it doesn't appear that these would be a good alternative if you are ripping pieces for 2" face frames from 8" wide cherry boards.  Is my assumption not based in reality?  Are these really only suited to working on sheet goods?"
I think they are primarily intended for sheet goods, but they could do the job you have in mind - You'd use the extension guides but would be adding extra boards behind the one being cut to support the rail, and your capacity (length-wise) would be limited to less than your longest rail.
I think if you need to do a lot of ripping of boards I'd make some kind of jig like an 8" wide 1/4" thick strip of plywood with a fence of wood 1" high glued and screwed to the back edge, then carefully rip some pine or cheap material (could even be 3/4 ply) into 2"+2.2mm spacer strips - place your board into the jig, drop the rail on top with the back edge against the wood fence (which would have 1/4" sticking up above the board) clamp in place and run a strip (cutting your board to a straight, known edge) then drop in a spacer strip between the board and the fence and you'll cut off 2" exactly (2.2mm being the kerf of the blade) repeat until your board is cut and start again on the next one.

John,

The only time I ever had the slightest sign of kickback was when in a hurry I did not let the saw get up to full speed before plunging. the guides do lock the piece pretty much in place but I think that adds to the safety rather than detracts from it. I'm not sure what you mean by "Longitudinal stop"

Hope this helps everyone

Steve

 

[FestoolMike]

Thanks Steve...  That did help me immensely.  I like your idea of the jig in order to speed up the cutting of the thinner strips for face frames.  I am really new to Festools and just new to woodworking in general.  Always looking for ways to speed things up.  Now, if I could figure out a way to put things back where they are supposed to be in my shop/ garage so i don't spend 30 minutes searching!

I am going to be building a good number of frameless cabinets for our basement to house all of the toys and crap our kids have accumulated.  I think I could justify (to the boss - you know) the parallel guides as I will be building them out of one type or another of material that will come in 4'x8' dimensions.

Thanks again for taking the time to respond!

Mike

 

[fshanno]

Thanks for the reply Steve. 

I hadn't though about the guide connetor thing on the other end.  Oh well can't throw away my tape but it's not the end of the world.

Wouldn't it be possible to rig a bridge piece that would let the arms hang off the end of the sheet unsupported so material thickness wouldn't matter?

Like this.

[attachimg=#]

 

[Frank-Jan]

Good idea Fshanno, but I think it would only work for wider cuts, because you would have to mount it towards the guiderail from where you set your stop (or else there wouldn't be any material it can rest on.
For use with the VL attachment (the bridge thing for the thin rips) it will probably work great. (and it looks easy enough to make)

 

[fshanno]

Good idea Fshanno, but I think it would only work for wider cuts, because you would have to mount it towards the guiderail from where you set your stop (or else there wouldn't be any material it can rest on.
For use with the VL attachment (the bridge thing for the thin rips) it will probably work great. (and it looks easy enough to make)

You're right, that's a pretty severe limitation.  I don't think it would be useful for upper cabinet parts at all.  It would still be worth making a couple because they're so simple.

Ok, how about this.  Who says we have to stick to the stops that came with the FS-PA.  We make our own.  How about a fence that runs between the arms.  You could even add an extender for rips wider than 25 1/2".  You could mount the arms at the ends of a longer guide and not have to move them.

[attachimg=1]

This arrangement allows you to rip any length between the arms without moving the arms on the guide.  A true fence.  I've shown it with the arms reversed to allow ripping perhaps a 30" wide rip from a 4x8 sheet using a 106" guide.  All sorts of possibilities here.

 

[john ferri]

Thanks Steve,

By longitudinal stop I am referring to MFT-LA 488 564. I purchased this with my 1080 as a repeatable stop for routing profiles or grooves in panels .  It could also be used to cut consistently pieces of wood smaller than the guiderail. Trapping wood, especially solid wood against this stop is a no-no--you butt the wood against the stop (i..e. on the right side of the guide rail) to position the work. Once positioned, the stop is no longer needed, so you flip it up and cut the wood.

I'm curious, was the kickback with sheet material or with solid wood--my guess is that sheet goods have little or no tension in them and are less likely to kick back, but solid wood is less predictable.

JF

 

[Deke]

Hey, I am a little confused by what these can help me with. I was thinking they were primarily for setting up repeatable cuts and that is what they do, but can they do repeatable wide cuts? Say for example I was ripping a 4 x 8 sheet into a few 21" wide pieces. Would the new guides let me set up cuts that are square and repeatable?

 

[honeydoman]

deke,

yes they can and as long as the sheet is square to begin with then you are fine.  because these make parallel cuts to the edge that the guides are set up againt.

 

[Sean_C_G]

Hello, I've decided to give these a try, as I don't have a table saw, and don't have any plans to get one. With regard to the issue of using this guide on panel stock less than 3/4", could you take say, three 1/4" panels, lay them on top of each other, and then use the guide to cut through all three panels at once? Or would this not be accurate enough? If this would be accurate enough, would this solve the problem (assuming that one's project required that many panels of 1/4" material)? Thanks.

 

[Brice Burrell]

Hello, I've decided to give these a try, as I don't have a table saw, and don't have any plans to get one. With regard to the issue of using this guide on panel stock less than 3/4", could you take say, three 1/4" panels, lay them on top of each other, and then use the guide to cut through all three panels at once? Or would this not be accurate enough? If this would be accurate enough, would this solve the problem (assuming that one's project required that many panels of 1/4" material)? Thanks.

Well, I believe that will work. In fact I'll tell you how it works because I'm going to try it in the next week or two. I ordered the guides for a wainscoting job that is using 1/4 ply in an apartment building.

 

[nate858]

I have been us a piece of  4 by 8  by 3/4  plywood as a backer for thinner material. On side I have a strip of baltic ply to keep it square, so far so good.

 

[tbellemare]

My micrometer got dropped and doesn't work so I'm estimating, but it looks like the stops are about 5/8". It should work.

Tom

 

[Tinker]

I have been looking at these parallel guides since they first came on the scene.  Looking and then avoiding further study>>> but quickly   With each peek, i realize some applications possible i had not thought of yet >>> and then move on >>> but quickly
and i had been quite successful in avoiding further interest.  That is until I looked at fshanno's idea.  I hate you man
i had thought of the same thing and very quickly moved on to another subject >>>but QUICKLY :-\ :-\

I have been making repeatable and very thin cuts for some time.  each time I have to do so, it takes considerable adjusting and clamping of stop pieces (most time is spent in the accurate adjustments needed).  With fshanno's plan, a whole new set of complications are removed/simplified.  He is just forcing me to take a closer look at those banana peels >>> er ah instruments :

I won't even tell THE LOML the next time I head for the toy store.  er, maybe I will wait til next time she heads for her own toy store.  Those sewing machines can realy make Festoys look quite inexpensive 8)
Tinker

 

[kfitzsimons]

I'm still a bit confused about how this thing works.  Does the waste cut off piece just fall to the floor after the cut? What keeps the last part of the cut from just breaking off because of the weight just before the end of the cut?  It looks to me that it's still easier to cut on top of a table with full support than to suspend the piece between two MFT's or similar supports.  I also like the idea of the ruler type of measuring devise that was shown in a photo.  Needs some tweeking, but I think it could work as well or better than the Festool guides for way less money.

 

[fshanno]

I have been looking at these parallel guides since they first came on the scene.  Looking and then avoiding further study>>> but quickly   With each peek, i realize some applications possible i had not thought of yet >>> and then move on >>> but quickly
and i had been quite successful in avoiding further interest.  That is until I looked at fshanno's idea.  I hate you man
i had thought of the same thing and very quickly moved on to another subject >>>but QUICKLY :-\ :-\

I have been making repeatable and very thin cuts for some time.  each time I have to do so, it takes considerable adjusting and clamping of stop pieces (most time is spent in the accurate adjustments needed).  With fshanno's plan, a whole new set of complications are removed/simplified.  He is just forcing me to take a closer look at those banana peels >>> er ah instruments :

I won't even tell THE LOML the next time I head for the toy store.  er, maybe I will wait til next time she heads for her own toy store.  Those sewing machines can realy make Festoys look quite inexpensive 8)
Tinker

Tinker,

Get her a surger or a new embroidery rig or something because the FS-PA/VL is a must have.  I got a set and all my reservations are gone.  Festool hit it out of the park.

I had questions and doubts too.

1.  Thin rips from sheet goods?  

The photo below shows 50mm rips done with the VL attachment.  They're being used as form parts for concrete counter tops.  No tool on Earth could have done them as fast.  Cut and bump.  Done before you could have booted the software on a CNC.  Before you could have hauled the sheet over and set the stops on a slider or panel saw.  Just slide the melamine out of the back of the pickup onto Styrafoam and pow, to the moon Alice, ...to...the...moon.

[attachthumb=1]

2.  Supporting the arms?  

For full sheet rips I just let the PA arms dangle and I don't find that to be a big problem.  Doesn't seem to affect accuracy.  I just leave the VL part on to counter balance and the weight of the saw flattens the guide out anyway.   If it does become a problem it can be remedied in a number of ways.

3.  Thin material?  

I cut 1/4" MDF melamine for draw bottoms.  I didn't start out with a full  sheet so I had to set the whole thing up on top of the Styrofoam.  The guide wasn't sitting flat on the material, not the best arrangement in the world but the MDF stayed tight against the stops and the cuts were accurate and the panels have happily fulfilled their destiny as drawer bottoms.  In other words, don't worry about it, just make the cut.  

4.  Rips wider than 650mm and long stopped crosscuts?  

Not a problem, simply extend the arms.

[attachthumb=2]

[attachthumb=3]

This is just a piece of t-track and a plastic stop that picks up at the 650mm point.  Notice that the stop includes a flange that sits on top of the material and supports the arm.   This arrangement is for crosscutting, a shorter t-track piece could be used on both arms to extend ripping width.  I made another stop out of beech, works just as well.  I'm debating now whether to rip off the mm rule and go all imperial.  One other thing.  An ideal situation would be to have an  FS-PA/VL attached to a long guide for ripping AND a single PA arm attached to a short guide for crosscutting.  Anybody out there interested on going halve-sies on an FS-PA?  Do a wishbone type thing?  $112.50?

5.  TS55/75 with an FS-PA/VL vs. the table saw for ripping hardwood lumber?  

You've got me there.  Table saw still wins.  A disclaimer, I enjoy cutting lumber at the table saw so you have to factor that in.  A lot of people don't, they have legitimate and justifiable concerns about safety and a track saw is unquestionably safer than any table saw, even a SawStop or a slider.  Lots don't have a table saw and don't want one, again a completely legitimate attitude.  Therefore many will have greater motivation than me to make this work.  But all the fiddling and faddling to support the cut  is just too much of a pain.  The FS-PA/VL certainly must help, but not enough.  Just look at the hoops Jerry had to jump through to size and square that little glue up at the beginning of this thread.  Don't get me wrong, straight lining 8' long rough cut lumber is something I can now do myself thanks to the TS55 and that is nothing short of miraculous.  But I won't be using the VL to rip rails and stiles.  Routine ripping of standard, random width hardwood boards?  I'll will still go to the table saw.

6.  FS-PA vs. the two ruler method?  

This is crucial.  If the two ruler method is better then whats the point?  Crosscuts?   In practice I find that initial setup is faster and repeat cuts are much faster with the FS-PA.  It's a sweet rig really, it's not clumsy at all.  It's a smoother process than the rulers.  Still, it will take time to get ROI here.  Also the two ruler method may actually be a little more accurate.  But I give the nod to the FS-PA.  I store the arms attached to my 106" guide, one of them never moves from it's attachment point at one end of that guide.  For a session I'll do all my ripping with the 106" guide first then I'll move one arm to my 55" and do the crosscutting.  When I'm done crosscutting I'll move the arm back on the 106 and put things away.

7.  Crosscuts?

Square right out of the box.  Dead square crosscuts of a 23 1/4" rips.  Does it replace a good crosscutting table?  No.  But for the first time Festool provides reliable 90 deg. crosscutting in a portable arrangement.  That is awesome.

Final thoughts.  6 out of 7 is not too shabby.  When I first heard about the FS I was thrilled.  Then I saw it and heard initial reports and my enthusiasm cooled.  Oh ye of little faith.  Then I when ahead and bought a set and the thrill is back.  Get out your wallet, time to pony up.  They saw us coming on this one.

 

[Brice Burrell]

Fshanno, thanks for posting your thoughts. The UPS man delivered my set today and I can't wait to check these puppies out. Thanks again.