Thinnng for HVLP

[frodo]

I know there are variables when thinning material for spraying. I have a viscosity cup that came with my Apollo 1035, 4 stage turbine and when I follow the directions it seems like I am thinning way too much to spray latex paint. My question is for you guys that spray latex, what percentage are you thinning? I used Floetrol today and it reccommends a 50/50 mix. Is this what you guys are doing??

I am pretty new to HVLP and appreciate any advise. Thanks

 

[Scott B.]

Frodo

I use the Apollo 1050vr 5 stage for latex. You shouldn't have to thin much with 4 stage. 10% or less, I would guess. And never 50/50 on fluotrol, it will destroy your sheen.

 

[frodo]

Thanks Scott. I thought 50/50 was quite high. Even the Apollo manual for the 7500 gun says 20-50% so I was concerned. I guess I was looking for a real world answer from you guys that do it all the time. Thanks for the advise. I will try 10% and see how that works.

Does the thinning agent have to be something like Floetrol or is water good enough for water base paint?  I am using Target EM6505 water base laquer.

 

[Scott B.]

Thanks Scott. I thought 50/50 was quite high. Even the Apollo manual for the 7500 gun says 20-50% so I was concerned. I guess I was looking for a real world answer from you guys that do it all the time. Thanks for the advise. I will try 10% and see how that works.

Does the thinning agent have to be something like Floetrol or is water good enough for water base paint?  I am using Target EM6505 water base laquer.

I use water for the wb paints we use (if necessary). I have not used Target lacquers. You should find out what they recommend, or maybe one of the spray guy here (Tim R or Tom B) would know.

Overall though, you shouldn't have to do any excessive thinning with that machine.

 

[RDMuller]

I attended a presentation by one of  the HVLP companies recently and latex spraying was addressed.  The rep said the latex is like strands of spaghetti that are being "splattered out".  He strongly urged that the paint be agitated with a drill with a "propellor" type of mixing attachment, not with paddle type of device or auger type of device.  The propellor action literally chews the spaghetti strands up to shorter lengths that spray very well.  Only minimal water should be added, Floetrol should not exceed label directions.  The needle should be much larger to work correctly (2 mm if I remember right).  Supposedly all of this will result in a great experience with latex.  Does anyone else out there agree or disagree with these thoughts?

 

[tjbnwi]

Floetrol is not a thinner, it is a flow agent.

There are thinners for latex, I use water. Never had to go 50/50.

Tip sizes of your Apollo in thousandths please.

My Fugi, Q4 through the cup with a #6 tip, 15%, max. If I'm shooting with the pressure pot 10% max.

I'm a big fan of the Ford 4 cup, it gives you an actual number to work from. I know that 36-38 seconds with a #6 tip is where I need to be for the material to spray properly through the gun with a cup on it. Check the manufactures PDS, it may give you the factory Ford 4 number.

Tom

 

[tiralie]

I am using Target EM6505 water base laquer.

I agree with Scott, thinning 50% is too much.
You can spray 6500 right out of the can (remember to stir it) with a 4 stage turbine and get good results...if you can pay attention for that long. I have done it but my ADD kicks in and I loose interest real fast.
You can use water to thin and have I used distilled water to 10-15%. The latex always seems a bit "flat" after it dries with regular tap water, probably my imagination.

When I spray (Benjamin Moore) latex paints I have used  their extender 518 which works very well. It does take longer to dry. Because EM 6500 has an acrylic base, so it should be compatible with the 518 extender which has acrylic/latex base. Do some tests for yourself to see how the coating flow. It's a much different animal than thinned. I have tinted EM6500 with BM tints and it worked well.

I am not aware of Target 6505, I think you are referring to Target 6500. If so, Jeff at target (Target forum) says it is too viscous to be measured by a Ford #4 cup or a #2 Zahns.
Here is a link to their Tech sheet for 6500

If I have to use my Fuji turbine (small job) to spray thinned latex or 6500 (rarely) I use a #5 cap set (1.8mm). While this (supposedly) puts extra stress on the turbine, I find the smaller tip and cap gives me better atomization and the coating lays down a lot nicer than the recommended #6 which seems to trap the occasional bubble.
Tim

 

[frodo]

I went right out of the Apollo instruction manual which recommended a 2mm tip (.079) for spraying latex paint. It came with a Zahn #2 viscosity cup which according to the manual should be 24-35 seconds. Problem was, to get it that low took a whole lot of thinning. I estimate 25-30%.  But this is what the manual stated, 20-40%

It seemed to me that the atomization was a little coarse. I expected the finish to be smoother but that could just be my lack of experience.

 

[frodo]

Thanks everyone for the advise.

Tim, I believe the 5 at the end of the 6505 was just to signify that it was a 5 gallon bucket. You are right, the product is em6500. Very interesting to hear you have had good results without thinning.

Do you guys always use the viscosity cup method prior to spraying?

 

[tiralie]

I went right out of the Apollo instruction manual which recommended a 2mm tip (.079) for spraying latex paint. It came with a Zahn #2 viscosity cup which according to the manual should be 24-35 seconds. Problem was, to get it that low took a whole lot of thinning. I estimate 25-30%.  But this is what the manual stated, 20-40%

Did you actually spray the thinned (25-30%) latex?

It seemed to me that the atomization was a little coarse. I expected the finish to be smoother but that could just be my lack of experience.

Yes, I experienced that as well. Try holding the gun closer to the surface and back off the volume of paint you are spraying and see if that works. It worked better for me if I had the gun 4-5" away which is closer than I usually use it at 6".

Very interesting to hear you have had good results without thinning.

It can be done, but it is very slow. You will be happier if you thin the 6500 a bit.

Do you guys always use the viscosity cup method prior to spraying?

I have never used one. Most of the coatings I use have a recommended tip size from others who have used it and I test from there. Or I guess and get it close and fine tune with testing. I do a fair amount of testing varying tips, pattern size and distance away from surface being sprayed.
Tim

 

[tjbnwi]

I use a cup when I work with a product for the first time. It gives me baseline information to work from.

Tom

 

[frodo]

I did spray the 25-30% thinned material. I was spraying a large built-in closet organizer that had a couple of small cubbies where it was impossible to maintain an even distance due to the size of the quart cup under the gun. No fun on those little cubicles!

Also noticed that the semi gloss sheen is kind of flat. I guess that is due to over thinning as Scott had said.

 

[Michael Kellough]

I did spray the 25-30% thinned material. I was spraying a large built-in closet organizer that had a couple of small cubbies where it was impossible to maintain an even distance due to the size of the quart cup under the gun. No fun on those little cubicles!

Also noticed that the semi gloss sheen is kind of flat. I guess that is due to over thinning as Scott had said.

That's where a conversion gun fed by a pressure pot really shines.

 

[tiralie]

Do you guys always use the viscosity cup method prior to spraying?

I have never used one. Most of the coatings I use have a recommended tip size from others who have used it and I test from there. Or I guess and get it close and fine tune with testing. I do a fair amount of testing varying tips, pattern size and distance away from surface being sprayed.
Tim

I do use a thickness gauge. It gives me more feedback on how much coating I am applying.

I did spray the 25-30% thinned material. I was spraying a large built-in closet organizer that had a couple of small cubbies where it was impossible to maintain an even distance due to the size of the quart cup under the gun. No fun on those little cubicles!

As Tom has suggested, get a pressure pot. It's so much easier to spray in tight spaces without that cup in the way. With your siphon gun, it is relatively easy to convert over. I believe any fluid line connector can be attached to the cup connector, (after removing the cup) at least my CAT fluid line connector works.
You will also need to either replace the hose connector at the base of the handle to the 8065 hose connector or block the pressurizing nipple.
All this information is in the Fuji users manual shipped with your system.
Tim

 

[tjbnwi]

I attended a presentation by one of  the HVLP companies recently and latex spraying was addressed.  The rep said the latex is like strands of spaghetti that are being "splattered out".  He strongly urged that the paint be agitated with a drill with a "propellor" type of mixing attachment, not with paddle type of device or auger type of device.  The propellor action literally chews the spaghetti strands up to shorter lengths that spray very well.  Only minimal water should be added, Floetrol should not exceed label directions.  The needle should be much larger to work correctly (2 mm if I remember right).  Supposedly all of this will result in a great experience with latex.  Does anyone else out there agree or disagree with these thoughts?

I did not know about the mixer. I have one so I'll have to try it. My number 6 tip is 2 mm I believe. I do end up thinning some.

Tom

 

[tjbnwi]

I did spray the 25-30% thinned material. I was spraying a large built-in closet organizer that had a couple of small cubbies where it was impossible to maintain an even distance due to the size of the quart cup under the gun. No fun on those little cubicles!

Also noticed that the semi gloss sheen is kind of flat. I guess that is due to over thinning as Scott had said.

The problem you had with the cubbies is one of the reasons I prefer the Fugi gravity feed gun (why anyone would buy a bottom cup gun now a days is beyond me). With the side mount cup I can rotate the cup around on the fitting, the gun will be upside down, cup right side up, or any combination of angles to keep the cup upright.

Yep, you over thinned it.

Tom

 

[tiralie]

The problem you had with the cubbies is one of the reasons I prefer the Fugi gravity feed gun (why anyone would buy a bottom cup gun now a days is beyond me).

LOL, so emphatic Tom!
The gravity is very easy to work with for sure. I can't comfortably spray a cubby or small (< 15" square) with a cup. I think there is a place for both and the siphon is easier to convert to a pressure pot. I like the siphon cup for some projects and I don't have to be as fussy about filtering because of the filter attached to the bottom of the siphon.
Sometimes you just need a bit more material than the small cup on the gravity feed can hold and a bigger cup on the gravity feet is really top heavy.
Of course there is the PPS system.
Tim

 

[frodo]

Well, I guess I learned a few lessons. That is why I started off my hvlp experience with a closet organizer. Figured it would not be so out in the open.
Thanks to everyone for the tips. They will be put to use soon on a bathroom vanity and bookcase. Made with Festools of course!