smorgasbord
Member
OK, I hadn't realized that, and that explains a lot. Thanks.
To Domino or not to Domino? That IS the question....
- Thread starter Stevenski
- Start date
mino
Member
And .. I have to agree .. though you are an experienced user. As am I. Today.
What the TPC /would have/ done for me, had I bought my DRC early on - or at least when I first eyed in back in 2010 or so - it would have fundamentally changed how I approached countless small projects. And, by far, not /just/ the woodworking ones.
About speed ... the thing is .. did you ever consider using it as a free-hand grinder/spindle? Yeah, it can be done, barely, but it *can* be done with it. For a newbie without a spindle around, that can be a godsend /it would have been for me/ etc. etc.
Then there is the standard drill collar, making it usable /unlike most cordless drills/ in a drill press. As a lathe or as a sander. Then there is the super-fine trigger, another enabler. Then there is the selection of chucks, not the least the "dry-walling/decking" one. Etc. Etc. none of those features are special or unique. It is the presence of all those capabilities in one tool that makes it special.
That is why I put it along DOMINO because it is the same type of a value - a tool which is an enabler for things a greenhorn is not even aware are possible. As one moves on with the "career", the relative value of those tools actually goes down as one tend to specialise/optimise workflows. They are still valuable, just not as much as for the "no tool chest or skills" folks.
And that is where you are wrong. Per above, the TPC/TDC and (analogues) are MORE than "just drills".
They are also:
- fine-control drivers /most drills, even drill drivers, do not have the fine trigger that enables this function/
- capable lathe/drill press motor /speed + standard collar, most drills have not the speed, most cordless have not the collar/
- face-sanders /the collar allows fixed mounting + speed/
- knife sharpeners /the collar allows fixed mounting + speed/
- drywall drivers /speed + chuck/
- straight grinders/'Dremel's /speed/
There are no corded drills that can do all that in one tool. And very, very, few cordless ones.
And to repeat, you are touching all the capabilities, and how /no individual of those/ is special. And you are absolutely correct in that. What IS special is the presence of those capabilities in one tool.
Getting some 18 yo 'his' TPC, along with all the chucks, a compatible lathe/drill stand, the drill guide and a some consumables and you have essentially enabled the fella to handle stuff one would get 10+ single-use tools "normally".
Last edited:
Yes, those are very nice festures, but they aren't necessary for most beginners when they start up, are they?
"The thing is, you are actually those who would have benefited from a TPC/DOMINO in your tool chest when you were starting up, the most."
My whole point is that the Domino Joiner offers a tenoning and mortising capability in one body like no others, but a Festool rill, no matter how advanced or rich in features it is, is the same drilling tool as any others. As such, the Festool drill cannot be viewed as in the same one-of-a-kind category or class the DF.
mino
Member
Actually, they are very much necessary/useful. Especially for beginners.
Once one has the skills and the tool chest to rely on, these capabilities are still useful/nice, but no longer all that valuable as one would have other means to accomplish the tasks/projects.
Ref the second point - I do not disagree, not at all.
I have presented a lateral, additional, reason to purchase DOMINO sooner than it "seems economical" for a novice user. That reason is it is an enabler and an education tool. And the more "green" a user, more it is so. And from this perspective, the TPC is the only other tool /from Festool/ that has the same dynamic to it - the less one is skilled/the less of a tool chest one has, I argue, the more the tool is valuable to one.
Last edited:
MacBoy
Member
Let us have some fun with AI; I posed this question to various AI platforms (ChatGPT, Copilot, etc.): Is Festool TPC a game-changing tool for beginners? These are some of the responses:
- "While the Festool TPC drill is a highly advanced, versatile, and high-quality tool, it is not generally considered a "game-changing" tool for a beginner, and most experienced users advise against it as a first purchase."
- "The Festool TPC drill is an excellent, versatile, and high-performance tool, but it is not generally considered a "game-changing" tool for beginners. Its premium price, advanced features, and proprietary system are typically overkill for a new user's initial needs, who would be better served by more budget-friendly options."
- "The Festool TPC 18/4 cordless percussion drill is a powerful and versatile tool, but whether it's a game-changer for beginners depends on several factors.
*Key Features:* (snipped)
While these features are impressive, some users have noted that the drill's power might not be on par with other high-end options ¹.
For beginners, the Festool TPC 18/4 might be a great choice if:
- You're looking for a high-quality, versatile drill for general-purpose use
- You're willing to invest in a premium tool
- You value features like the KickbackStop and FastFix interface
However, if you're a beginner on a budget or prioritize raw power, you might want to explore other options.
Ultimately, the Festool TPC 18/4 is a solid tool, but its game-changing potential for beginners depends on your specific needs and priorities ² ³ ⁴."
- "The Festool TPC 18/4 drill is a premium, high-performance tool, but it may be overkill for most beginners due to its complexity and price."
- "While the Festool TPC drill is a highly advanced, versatile, and high-quality tool, it is not generally considered a "game-changing" tool for a beginner, and most experienced users advise against it as a first purchase."
- "The Festool TPC drill is an excellent, versatile, and high-performance tool, but it is not generally considered a "game-changing" tool for beginners. Its premium price, advanced features, and proprietary system are typically overkill for a new user's initial needs, who would be better served by more budget-friendly options."
- "The Festool TPC 18/4 cordless percussion drill is a powerful and versatile tool, but whether it's a game-changer for beginners depends on several factors.
*Key Features:* (snipped)
While these features are impressive, some users have noted that the drill's power might not be on par with other high-end options ¹.
For beginners, the Festool TPC 18/4 might be a great choice if:
- You're looking for a high-quality, versatile drill for general-purpose use
- You're willing to invest in a premium tool
- You value features like the KickbackStop and FastFix interface
However, if you're a beginner on a budget or prioritize raw power, you might want to explore other options.
Ultimately, the Festool TPC 18/4 is a solid tool, but its game-changing potential for beginners depends on your specific needs and priorities ² ³ ⁴."
- "The Festool TPC 18/4 drill is a premium, high-performance tool, but it may be overkill for most beginners due to its complexity and price."
Last edited:
mino
Member
Well, lets just say I am not going to argue with 'AI'.
Instead I shall try to explain why, for those not familiar with the inherent characteristics of an LLM-base 'AI':
The thing is, for any rational discussion, both sides need the capability of an analysis. An LLM-based AI lacks that by definition of what it is. An LLM is a glorified library search engine at its core. If something is not present/or prevalent in the library it uses, it cannot conceive of it. Thus arguing with an LLM is like Copernicus "discussing" with the priests /aka their interpretation of The Book/ at his time. Pointless.
ChuckS, I have not dissed, nor am I dissing, any of -your- points noted earlier, ignoring the AI junk for the moment. All I state is those are lateral to the position I set out to convey in the original comment.
To put it in a few words - I believe and have observed in practice that:
* The less knowledgeable/skilled one is, and the more universal the tool the more it opens one's mind. This characteristic is not dependent on the given tool being good/optimal for the task in question. capability is enough.
* I observe this aspect of a tool's/instrument's value diminishes as one gets more skilled/knowledgeable for the knowledge it could impart/enable was already imparted at that point.
Lastly, I state, with my life experience, that the two tools this applies to /that Festool makes/ are primarily the TPC 18, the DOMINO, and now, come to think of it, also the AGC 18. Basing on what things one usually starts tabbing at in a hobbyist 'carreer', a natural progression comes to mind in the form of the TPC, the AGC, the DOMINO, in that order. Some single-task tools in between notwithstanding.
Instead I shall try to explain why, for those not familiar with the inherent characteristics of an LLM-base 'AI':
The thing is, for any rational discussion, both sides need the capability of an analysis. An LLM-based AI lacks that by definition of what it is. An LLM is a glorified library search engine at its core. If something is not present/or prevalent in the library it uses, it cannot conceive of it. Thus arguing with an LLM is like Copernicus "discussing" with the priests /aka their interpretation of The Book/ at his time. Pointless.
ChuckS, I have not dissed, nor am I dissing, any of -your- points noted earlier, ignoring the AI junk for the moment. All I state is those are lateral to the position I set out to convey in the original comment.
To put it in a few words - I believe and have observed in practice that:
* The less knowledgeable/skilled one is, and the more universal the tool the more it opens one's mind. This characteristic is not dependent on the given tool being good/optimal for the task in question. capability is enough.
* I observe this aspect of a tool's/instrument's value diminishes as one gets more skilled/knowledgeable for the knowledge it could impart/enable was already imparted at that point.
Lastly, I state, with my life experience, that the two tools this applies to /that Festool makes/ are primarily the TPC 18, the DOMINO, and now, come to think of it, also the AGC 18. Basing on what things one usually starts tabbing at in a hobbyist 'carreer', a natural progression comes to mind in the form of the TPC, the AGC, the DOMINO, in that order. Some single-task tools in between notwithstanding.
Last edited:
mino
Member
Unfortunately, you will not find most of that on any 'tuber video .. there are almost no youtubers that are novices and/or tool-chest-constrained when they come across it ..
This is the same case with those folks proclaiming how the DOMINO is 'expensive' and the dowells etc. /having pre-existing tooling for/ are cheaper and better...
Cases in point:
Will I use my DRC 18/4 as a metal grinder now that I have an actual grinder on hand? Nope.
Do I carry a couple steel/metal grinding bits in my "go to" tool box to go along my DRC? Absolutely. Would those be useless with a T18? Yup.
Will I use my DRC in my drill press now that I have a DR20-2 for it? Actually, yes when I need 3000+RPM ..
Would I not hesitate to bring *only* my DRC and the drill press should I need to go do something remotely with no power available? Without a thought.
Stevenski
Member
wow - what an interesting exchange - and I'm not being sarcastic. It's been fun to observe how the discussion has moved sideways from the original, core domino subject 
Since this is "my" thread let me just say:
Since this is "my" thread let me just say:
- I can't wait to get my hands on my shiny new DF 500
- I am frustrated with DHL that it still hasn't arrived. I bought it on Monday morning and was hoping to have it to play with by the weekend. Right now I am not feeling too optimistic - it's still 750km away in Germany
- I think you are all putting too much stock in the role of a drill for a "noobie"
What he needs to do is "just do it", make mistakes and learn from them. - If I were to recommend a versatile, forgiving and good quality Festool drill to a newbie, it would be the lighter but still powerful CXS + installers kit. I have the 10v cxs and rarely reach for my bigger T18. I looked at the new 18V CXS series but found no compelling reason to upgrade. I also looked at the 18/4 and almost bought it but found it too heavy and bulky for joinery work and for punching holes in walls, my ryobi SD is unbeatable. Just sayin'....
- I still consider myself a relative newbie (despite my age) and I am definitely a new-ish convert to the world of Festool. Personally I have found the most value in the areas of cutting and routing - the ease and GUARANTEED accuracy of the machines keeps astounding me. Balls on accurate straight out of the systainer, PhD levels of adjustment ability, built like tanks, astonishingly good after sales support... There are very good reasons why they are not cheap and it makes me sad when I see people trashing the brand just because it is more expensive than eg DeWalt/Makita/Bosch without really trying to understand what that extra money is buying. Of course, I totally accept that the value proposition is not right for everyone and we all make our own choices. But to trash talk the brand just because it costs more than you are willing to pay? It says more about that person than Festool in my opinion
MacBoy
Member
It will be very interesting to see how your mind adjusts and contorts once you start using the Domino, @Stevenski
Especially since you’ve been comfortably using dowels.
Alignment-wise, dowels and I never got along.
As an average hobbyist DIY and woodworker, the Domino is absolutely a game-changer for me.
It also turned me into a lazy man.
Every joint on my projects are viewed from the perspective of a Loose Tenon, and designed accordingly.
I’ve sung the praises of the Domino to my woodworking and DIY neighbors.
I’ve also told them: I will lend any of my tools to you, and the Festool ones have been trained to stay home
Especially since you’ve been comfortably using dowels.
Alignment-wise, dowels and I never got along.
As an average hobbyist DIY and woodworker, the Domino is absolutely a game-changer for me.
It also turned me into a lazy man.
Every joint on my projects are viewed from the perspective of a Loose Tenon, and designed accordingly.
I’ve sung the praises of the Domino to my woodworking and DIY neighbors.
I’ve also told them: I will lend any of my tools to you, and the Festool ones have been trained to stay home
luvmytoolz
Member
@Stevenski Since you're getting the Domino, no doubt you'll be buying the tenon/cutter starter set if you haven't already, but also check out findbuytools for the dirt cheap matching mortise, as well as the tenon cutters so you can make your own tenons if you have a router table.
MacBoy
Member
Other than for exposed mortises, why is there a need to have matching Tenon Cutters?
As long as there is long-grain to long-grain glue-up, will a Rectangle-shaped loose tenon be plenty fine?
luvmytoolz
Member
A: Because they're pretty!
B: Because they match the glue-groove profile of the Festool tenons
C: Because you can make them in any timber up to the max width of the wide setting
D: See A
Seriously though, being able to make them to suit the widest mortise setting is amazingly useful, especially so for the DF500 as there's quite a bit of difference between narrow and the widest settings.
I use mine for alignment and strength, greatly increasing the glue surface area, so if you only really cared about alignment then square tenons will do perfectly fine. My miniscule level of OCD would never allow me to do that though unless under exceptional circumstances. ;-)
Attachments
onocoffee
Member
Reminds me of a conversation I had with a LaMello dealer a couple days ago about the Zeta P2 - which jumped to $1800 in April and is now priced at $2000. I noticed the price increased and asked him if that had affected sales. He replied that it hadn't because the guys who buy those are the pro cabinet guys. When it's Mission Critical, people will spend the money.
The guys that complain about the Domino price, just don't know. It's expensive but I have yet to regret the purchase.
luvmytoolz
Member
I can't recall if I've ever heard of anyone regretting buying a Domino. Maybe not using it as much as they thought yeah, but that's about it.
Stevenski
Member
so no pressure then.....?
Well... the Pumpkin Spirit made it in time! tada - delivered 30 minutes ago
Just upload one on printable. Designing an ergonomic handle has been more time-consuming than expected:
The handle is not retained by the back screw (it is not designed to be screw/unscrew many times). After testing existing designs, a 2 part solution, one replacing the back cover of the domino with a 3d-printed part with threaded insert is an overkill. The handle gives more control when plunging.
"...no long tables with gargantuan frames requiring deep mortises into thick legs"I am a traditionalist, that is, preferring traditional mortise-and-tenon joinery over mechanical fasteners. I created a number of ways to cut these, both by hand and machine. 10 years ago I purchased the DF500 to aid in building a kitchen. Once done it returned to its sustainer and the shelf. About three years ago I decided to give it a second go as a mortising machine. It is fine in this regard as the furniture I build is medium-sized - no long tables with gargantuan frames requiring deep mortises into thick legs. A few beds, but then I return to my router. For frame-and-panels and the average carcasses (when not dovetailed), the DF500 is great. Note that it is not limited in width of mortise since one can cut as wide as one chooses. There are set widths for standard dominos, but you can make custom dominos if you prefer (I do) when loose tenons are the aim.
Many, many mortises here for a bed head. The rounded ends squared with a mortise chisel ...
In a workshop, a battery or power version makes little real difference. The battery version is one less cord to connect, but a dust collection hose is still required.
What I will point out is that the Festool warrantee is not valid from one country to another. I purchased my Domino new from the UK and live in Australia as it was considerably cheaper this way. I trusted the reputation of Festool not to get me into trouble. It worked out.
Regards from Perth
Derek
I recently bumped into a YT channel maintained by a fellow countryman from Canada. He builds many custom tables that are big and heavy by any standard. He shows that it's a myth that we need a DF700 to build big furniture projects:
Taitlin Studio
Handcrafted custom woodworking, custom furniture, urban timber reclamation, epoxy river tables, and live edge art. Located in Canada. For more info, visit us at: https://taitlinstudio.com
youtube.com
I also know a custom furniture maker locally who has the DF500, and he takes on anything that is thrown at him by his clients, including institutional customers. When asked why he didn't get a DF700 (which is tax deductible for his business), he said why, when he could do almost anything with the DF500.
