TS55-REQ and MFT-3 Not Cutting Square

[tjbnwi]

Maybe not a good an analogy Tom. Just saying a known accurate square to calibrate the table vs a known squared table to validate a square. And with that I'll stop creating background noise so the OP can get his MFT squared away.  [oops]

How do you know the square is accurate? The manufacture told you so? I send all of my calibration out to a calibration lab once a year to be certified. I know my measuring devices are accurate down to 0.0005". Had one company I worked for we had to send our 25' tape measures to the cal lab to be checked.

With the 5 cut method, if you get the rail to fence set where the difference between the two ends of the 5th cut is 0.0005" or less you have a square piece to check your square against. The 5th cut on my MFT is out 0.0000 in just under 24", so I know my MFT is as square as possible. I can check any square against the cut piece. If the square does not align perfectly the square is off, can't be anything else.

I would like to see someone with 4 dogs do a 5 cut to check the accuracy of the hole pattern on the MFT, we all assume it is perfect. A test would be nice to confirm that is the case. I'd do it but I don't own any type of dogs for the MFT.

A simple 5 cut test will identify the problem quickly and allow the OP to begin to make the proper adjustments. By using only the MFT to set itself you have removed the square from the equation.

By the way, I do build from the ridge down. Supporting the roof properly is the most important part of framing layout.

Tom

 

[crookedcutter]

Hi Shane.  Please see below.  The lines lined up perfectly.  Thanks,

Ok, good.

So, it looks like your square isn't the issue.

And, we ruled out the saw being the issue.

I'd like to rule out the guide rail next. Can you repeat scribing a line on your rail on side of the rail OPPOSITE the side you checked before, flip and repeat. See if those align. If they do, your rail appears to be the problem because it aligns on one side and not on the other. If they do not, then your rail is not the issue.

And, for those wondering, I come from an IT background. So, my methodology is to troubleshoot by systemically removing potential causes.

Shane

Hi Shane.  Please see below.  I scribbed a line down each side of the track, flipped it 180 degrees and did it again.  Both lines were right on.  I think where you're going with all this is that my MFT is out of alignment...

[attachimg=#]

[attachimg=#]

 

[Administrator_JSVN]

Hi Shane.  Please see below.  I scribbed a line down each side of the track, flipped it 180 degrees and did it again.  Both lines were right on.  I think where you're going with all this is that my MFT is out of alignment...

I'm not going in any particular direction. I'm just asking questions to try to find the source of the problem. My last test was actually to make sure your guide rail was straight and parallel on each side. Had there been a taper to the rail or the spline that the saw rides on, those lines would have been trapezoidal.

But, wait a second. Back in reply #9, you checked one side of the rail for me using this method and got different results. You showed a 3/16" difference over 22". What has changed? This test actually seems to show that the issue is potentially resolved. What has changed to make that 3/16" error go away?

Shane

 

[crookedcutter]

Hi Shane.  Please see below.  I scribbed a line down each side of the track, flipped it 180 degrees and did it again.  Both lines were right on.  I think where you're going with all this is that my MFT is out of alignment...

I'm not going in any particular direction. I'm just asking questions to try to find the source of the problem. My last test was actually to make sure your guide rail was straight and parallel on each side. Had there been a taper to the rail or the spline that the saw rides on, those lines would have been trapezoidal.

But, wait a second. Back in reply #9, you checked one side of the rail for me using this method and got different results. You showed a 3/16" difference over 22". What has changed? This test actually seems to show that the issue is potentially resolved. What has changed to make that 3/16" error go away?

Shane

I this case I didn't press the plywood against the fence.  I drew the two lines, and then lines up ONE SIDE ONLY, and then drew the other two lines.  (I lined it up against the splinter guard side, since you were checking the back side.)

 

[Administrator_JSVN]

Ok, makes sense.  [embarassed]

So, not the saw, not the rail, not the square.

Do you have something to check the fence to make sure it's perfectly straight? A long straight edge that you know it accurate? Your guide rail could serve as a straight edge, if necessary.

If the fence is perfectly straight without any bow, then I'm running out of ideas on things on the table itself that could be a potential problem.

The only other potential issue that I can think of is if there's a taper to the side of the square you're referencing off of. Since you used the inside edge to check the square for accuracy and you're using the outside edge for checking the calibration on your table. If you have some calipers, you could check it to make sure it's equal width at both ends.

Using a 12" square, you would only need to have a ~3/32" gap for it to end up 3/16" at 22".

Would you like me to see if our guy on the ground in your area would be able to swing by your place to have a look and see if he can help sort out the cause of the issue?

Shane

 

[tiralie]

Crookedcutter:
What were the results of your 5 cut test?
Tim

 

[tjbnwi]

Check to see if the non-hinged end of the rail support is on plane with the MFT top. Any pitch will throw the MFT out of square.

Tim, I'm guessing he isn't going to do a 5 cut test. So far that there is nothing wrong with anything-----------------but the cut results. A 5 cut shows my MFT is out 0.0000 in 24", I guess thats close enough.

Tom

 

[crookedcutter]

Check to see if the non-hinged end of the rail support is on plane with the MFT top. Any pitch will throw the MFT out of square.

Tim, I'm guessing he isn't going to do a 5 cut test. So far that there is nothing wrong with anything-----------------but the cut results. A 5 cut shows my MFT is out 0.0000 in 24", I guess thats close enough.

Tom

Sorry fellas...I've been crazy busy at work lately.  I haven't taken the time to do the cut test - I'll get 'er done and let you know the results.  I truly do appreciate all the help everyone has offered.

 

[tjbnwi]

If/when you get around to the test cut, mark the fence end then post the width of the fence end and start end. The distance from fence to the rail support bracket, post that also.

Tom

 

[Stone Message]

Ok, makes sense.  [embarassed]

So, not the saw, not the rail, not the square.

Do you have something to check the fence to make sure it's perfectly straight? A long straight edge that you know it accurate? Your guide rail could serve as a straight edge, if necessary.

If the fence is perfectly straight without any bow, then I'm running out of ideas on things on the table itself that could be a potential problem.

The only other potential issue that I can think of is if there's a taper to the side of the square you're referencing off of. Since you used the inside edge to check the square for accuracy and you're using the outside edge for checking the calibration on your table. If you have some calipers, you could check it to make sure it's equal width at both ends.

Using a 12" square, you would only need to have a ~3/32" gap for it to end up 3/16" at 22".

Would you like me to see if our guy on the ground in your area would be able to swing by your place to have a look and see if he can help sort out the cause of the issue?

Shane

I am sorry but unless I have missed it - you must check that the reference edge of the piece of plywood is straight.

If the OP has not got a reliable straight edge he could use the rear fence of the MFT but would have to use it twice. Once using one side of the fence and the second time using the opposite side and halve the difference.

Again going back to the work I am doing right now. I had some dodgy results after cutting a drawer side and eventually checked the reference edge of the piece with my straight edge. It was very slightly convex which meant that when it went on the Kapex and I pushed it against the fence (using my let hand) the cut was not square to the part of the edge nearest the cut (on the right) - which is precisely where the square goes when checking the cut. A couple of swipes with my Jack plane and the problem was solved.

Check the reference edge of that piece of ply before you tear your MFT apart or start exchanging gear at the retailer's store.

Peter

 

[tiralie]

. A 5 cut shows my MFT is out 0.0000 in 24", I guess thats close enough.

Tom
Your standards are falling, I would have thought you could have achieved 0.00000 in 24" for sure... [wink]
Tim

 

[tjbnwi]

Ok, makes sense.  [embarassed]

So, not the saw, not the rail, not the square.

Do you have something to check the fence to make sure it's perfectly straight? A long straight edge that you know it accurate? Your guide rail could serve as a straight edge, if necessary.

If the fence is perfectly straight without any bow, then I'm running out of ideas on things on the table itself that could be a potential problem.

The only other potential issue that I can think of is if there's a taper to the side of the square you're referencing off of. Since you used the inside edge to check the square for accuracy and you're using the outside edge for checking the calibration on your table. If you have some calipers, you could check it to make sure it's equal width at both ends.

Using a 12" square, you would only need to have a ~3/32" gap for it to end up 3/16" at 22".

Would you like me to see if our guy on the ground in your area would be able to swing by your place to have a look and see if he can help sort out the cause of the issue?

Shane

I am sorry but unless I have missed it - you must check that the reference edge of the piece of plywood is straight.

If the OP has not got a reliable straight edge he could use the rear fence of the MFT but would have to use it twice. Once using one side of the fence and the second time using the opposite side and halve the difference.

Again going back to the work I am doing right now. I had some dodgy results after cutting a drawer side and eventually checked the reference edge of the piece with my straight edge. It was very slightly convex which meant that when it went on the Kapex and I pushed it against the fence (using my let hand) the cut was not square to the part of the edge nearest the cut (on the right) - which is precisely where the square goes when checking the cut. A couple of swipes with my Jack plane and the problem was solved.

Check the reference edge of that piece of ply before you tear your MFT apart or start exchanging gear at the retailer's store.

Peter

This is why a 5 cut test is the best way (should be the only way) to test and square any table saw, miter saw, radial arm saw, swing saw, MFT........................

You've removed any outside influence/tool and every reference face is created by the same "machine". Any other procedure or method is a lesson in futility (as witnessed in this thread) and will not produce the desired results.

As I stated earlier, once you get the "machine" set up properly you have a test piece to check your squares.

An extra feather key really helps when setting up the MFT.

Tom

 

[tjbnwi]

. A 5 cut shows my MFT is out 0.0000 in 24", I guess thats close enough.

Tom
Your standards are falling, I would have thought you could have achieved 0.00000 in 24" for sure... [wink]
Tim

My test tools are not certified to that decimal place, so I cannot in good conscience state the MFT is that accurate.

I used to test and set an EDM that had a tolerance of 0.0005 in the X,Y and Z axis @ 36". You had to place the tools in the climate controlled room 24 hours prior to checking the machine. If you held the tool for more than a minute you had to set that one down and let it stabilize. Setting the upper blade on the stainless steel sheer was fun also, had to set a 0.0015" curve in the 6' long blade, the 12' meal sheer was easy, that was a 0.005 curve in 12'.

Tom

 

[grbmds]

So this 5-cut test will work with the size you can work with on the MFT table? Your responses talk about squareness within 24", but I don't believe you can safely cut a piece 24" across the MFT with the fence mounted. I believe it's less than that. You guys have me concerned now. I've always been satisfied with squaring the fence to the holes in the MFT with dogs (I have Parf dogs. ) and then squaring the rail to the fence with a small engineer's square. So far I haven't found that to be off enough that I would notice in any project I've done to date. I want to try the 5-cut method to see if mine is square, but, of course, want to do it right and with a piece that is sufficiently large to show up any out of squareness.

 

[tiralie]

... but I don't believe you can safely cut a piece 24" across the MFT with the fence mounted.

I currently have mine set up to cut 24". My Fence is about as far back as it can go and I have about 1" in front of a 24" panel. The saw rests on the leading edge of the rail supported by the guide rail supports.

I've always been satisfied with squaring the fence to the holes in the MFT with dogs (I have Parf dogs. ) and then squaring the rail to the fence with a small engineer's square. So far I haven't found that to be off enough that I would notice in any project I've done to date. I want to try the 5-cut method to see if mine is square, but, of course, want to do it right and with a piece that is sufficiently large to show up any out of squareness.

Sounds like you are good, so no worries.
A small engineers square makes it more time consuming to set up the rail. When adjusting the rail to 90 degrees to the fence against a small surface of the square you can sometimes introduce small errors in square because of leverage in the rail can move it out a couple degrees.

It is irrelevant where the fence is in relationship to the table, what is important is the relationship of the rail to the fence. As long as the rail is 90 degrees to the rail fence, you will get a square cut.
So in other words the rail can be a 30 degrees to the table or dog holes but as long as the fence is 90 degrees to it you will make a square cut.

fixed rail to rail circular argument...

 

[gkaiseril]

This must be the woodworkers theory of Relativity!

 

[grbmds]

... but I don't believe you can safely cut a piece 24" across the MFT with the fence mounted.

I currently have mine set up to cut 24". My Fence is about as far back as it can go and I have about 1" in front of a 24" panel. The saw rests on the leading edge of the rail supported by the guide rail supports.

I've always been satisfied with squaring the fence to the holes in the MFT with dogs (I have Parf dogs. ) and then squaring the rail to the fence with a small engineer's square. So far I haven't found that to be off enough that I would notice in any project I've done to date. I want to try the 5-cut method to see if mine is square, but, of course, want to do it right and with a piece that is sufficiently large to show up any out of squareness.

Sounds like you are good, so no worries.
A small engineers square makes it more time consuming to set up the rail. When adjusting the rail to 90 degrees to the fence against a small surface of the square you can sometimes introduce small errors in square because of leverage in the rail can move it out a couple degrees.

It is irrelevant where the fence is in relationship to the table, what is important is the relationship of the rail to the fence. As long as the rail is 90 degrees to the rail fence, you will get a square cut.
So in other words the rail can be a 30 degrees to the table or dog holes but as long as the fence is 90 degrees to it you will make a square cut.

fixed rail to rail circular argument...

I actually find that there is an advantage to squaring the fence to the holes. It means I can use dogs (like Parf dogs) as the fence for 45 degree cuts without changing fence and checking squareness again later. Sinc I don't do that many 45s this is an easy way to do them. I did a larger picture frame late last year using the dogs as the fence and the mitered corners were the most accurate I've ever done.

 

[tjbnwi]

Any size piece you can comfortably work with will be okay.

Ultimately when I'm done with the 24" piece ends up about 23-3/4" in length and I cut off about 3/4" to measure. Once you get the MFT dialed in it should not come out of square.

Tom

 

[tiralie]

This must be the woodworkers theory of Relativity!

...Well maybe just my theory of relativity... [big grin]

 

[jafenske]

I also recently got a mft/3 and I was having a difficult time getting a square cut. I followed the information in this thread and I pleased to report that I am 1 thousandth out of square over 24 inches. I used the 5 cut method and the Half inch shy method to get there. Thanks.