Understanding Festool Dust Collection

davidaz

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Jan 14, 2009
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I have several Festool tools and love each of them dearly. I do not have a Festool Dust Collector and that is where I need help. I have a 2HP canister Dust Collector that works wonderfully on all my tools and rated at 1500 CFM. I have a 27mm grey Festool hose that I use on my Festool products, such as my saw, routers and sander. I clearly understand the mechanics behind air flow and air pressure, so when moving large quantities of chips in a routing operation for example, the suction has to generate enough pressure to move the debris from the tool to the collector. The reduction of 90 degree elbows, flex piping, are all obvious problems that restrict performance.

Question: When attaching the 27mm hose to a 4" or 6" duct with a reducer fitting the air speed is so drastically reduced it acts as if there is an obstruction in the smaller diameter 27mm hose.  It seems that Festool has designed something in their collectors to account for this problem, thus providing the ability to increase air flow in a smaller diameter pipe and that is what I am trying to understand. Obviously, others on this board who are not using Festool Dust Collectors have encountered this problem and I would love to hear what methods were used to over come this.

 
Large Dust collectors are designed to to move a large quantity of air at a high speed in large diameter tubing 4" and up, vacuums like CT22 are designed to move small quantities of air at high speed through small diameter tubing 1" to 2 1/2". That's why if you try to hook your vacuum up to a 4" hose it doesn't work too good and vice versa with the dust collector. For in depth reading and info go here: http://billpentz.com//woodworking/cyclone/index.cfm. If you have time to read, all will be explained.

John
 
John - Thanks so much for responding and I have been reviewing much of the information on Bill's Site previously and there is a lot of great information there. But what I was hoping to find is two things:
1) A technical explaination by Festool that would give more insight into the concept used in their vac units. That might even spur more sales of these units. People in stores demo'ing this units are clueless. Seems the industry is also clueless as most tool ports are 2 1/2 on non Festool products and the collection equipment in general requires a min of 4" ports to work.
2) Looking forward to hearing from others who have encountered this issue and if anyone has come up with alternate ways to deal with this? We all have invested in equipment and we use what we have on hand. Physics is Physics....

http://billpentz.com//woodworking/cyclone/index.cfm
 
Larger dust collectors like you cyclone have a large impeller that spins relatively slowly and moves a large amount of air.  This comes at the cost of losing the ability to move air as the restriction increases.  Shop vacs and Festool vacs are designed with a small impeller that spins really fast.  These don't move nearly as much air but are able to continue moving air even with high restriction.

An analogy is a go cart in 1st gear (festool vac) versus 5th gear (cyclone).

When there is no restriction - driving on a flat surface with no wind - then your go cart does just fine in 5th gear going 40 mph.  Once you start adding some restriction - 6% grade and 40 mph headwind which is the equivalent of more narrow hose and bends - 5th gear doesn't work so well - you start slowing down a lot and can easily stall.  But in 1st gear, the cart has no problems.
 
Tim Sproul said:
An analogy is a go cart in 1st gear (festool vac) versus 5th gear (cyclone).

When there is no restriction - driving on a flat surface with no wind - then your go cart does just fine in 5th gear going 40 mph.  Once you start adding some restriction - 6% grade and 40 mph headwind which is the equivalent of more narrow hose and bends - 5th gear doesn't work so well - you start slowing down a lot and can easily stall.  But in 1st gear, the cart has no problems.
I like this analogy, it's the first one that has helped me understand this issue, thanks.
 
Davidas, like you my shop has a dust collection system, designed to meet the needs of large and powerful fixed equipment. Hoses connecting the fixed equipment range from 100mm (4") upward. Each machine has an electric damper which only opens when that particular machine is in use. These fixed machines are designed for very high volume and fairly low velocity collection.

Festool takes a different approach to design, in which dust extraction is a basic requirement. Also Festools are designed to be used on job sites as well as in the shop. Therefore the Festool dust extractors, such as the CT22/26, are designed so they can use hoses as small as 27mm for improved flexibility. This works well so long as the hose is fairly short and it is dust being extracted. Chips are more effectively extracted at lower velocity. The trade-off is that better chip extraction requires larger hoses. The planers are designed to use 36mm hoses, although it is possible to attach a 27mm hose. It is more prone to clogging than the bigger hose. The Kapex also works best when connected with a 36mm hose.

An important feature of Festool extractors is the variable speed. For example with sanders excessive velocity hinders the tool. It is so convenient to have the speed control of the extractor close so you can adjust the speed by trial while working.

Currently my shop has two CT22, one with a Festool boom arm. That is so handy at an assembly table where I do spot hand sanding. Moving that vac a few feet brings it to another work table where I use guide rails and TS55 or routers for jobs where they are more efficient than using the beam or slider saw.

The shop Kapex has another CT22, which can be disconnected when it is needed on sites. Tomorrow a third CT22 is expected, which I purchased near new from a friend who expects his CT36 on Friday. I also have pre-ordered a CT36, but told my dealer he was welcome to fill other urgent orders ahead. That CT36 will be my future on-site vac/extractor.

I confess that I do use a 100mm hose from the shop DC system to empty bags from the CT22s. I swap bags long before they are full.

 
Everyone - Thanks so much for the info, I am sure this has helped the forum in general.
I will continue monitoring the thread to view any other contributions.

David
 
It's pretty simple, moving air through vacuum sources is measured two ways, cfm and static pressure. Shop vacs have very high static pressure in order to move air forcibily but a low cfm. Dust Collectors move large amounts of air with a high speed draft of course high cfm.

Look at the diffrerence a DC has in hp compared to a shop vac, a 2.0 hp shop vac has 84" of static pressure with 95 cfm. A DC at 2.0 hp can have 1500 cfm...
 
First, forget the HP rating on my small dust collection products, it's mostly marketing hype.  Such as the Borgs 5hp dust collectors that run on a 120v 10amp circuit...  defies all laws.... but regardless...

Total vacuum force is mostly a function of power. (of course you can tailor a design, but can never overcome the power issue which is the over-riding limitation)  A large Cyclone Dust collector will draw 4 - 20x the power of a Festool Vac.  Since most motor efficiency ratings are 90% range, the motor eff. is not much of an issue in a general discussion as this. 

Next is the issue of restrictions.... smaller openings create greater restictions.  Restrictions limit vacuum force / pressure.  Smaller hoses create added friction, because the air moves at higher speeds....same as an automobile... when you travel at 80mph, fuel economy is greatly reduced due to MUCH greater air resitance vs. traveling at 20mph.  Of course, there is always the restriction size vs. hose size.  Once a restriction is put in place, you can not reverse its losses with a larger hose, although the larger hose will still reduce total resistance, so all is not wasted.  If you ever want to see this play out, put a 50mm hose on the Festool, you will see what resistance is all about...

As mentiones previously, Festool vacs are unique mainly due to their specific features they designed in, for the market they serve, which are:

1)  portability (in shop and bringing to job site)

2)  Quiet... vs. other dust collectors, often important on job sites

3)  HEPA filtration as the final filtering system.  Very important on job sites and in shop.

                The first two are self explanatory.  We know Festool is limited in power by the available power in most 15 amp circuits, so they can not create the ultimate sucking machine.  As matter of fact, you will notice Festool vacs suck much less than a cheap Borg unit.  Which brings up the most overlooked issue, #3 above.  A dust bag is a very crude filtration device, it traps relatively large dust particles.  In most cases, large enough where you can see them with the naked eye.  The more crude the collection, like a Borg unit, the less resistance, the greater suction. 

However, the dangerous dust particles are invisible, under 10 micron in size.  The most deadly are in the  1 - 5 micron size, as they seat perfectly in the lungs.  Unfortunately, the lungs do not have a cleaning cycle, like the kidneys cleaning the blood 24/7.  These foreign objects often stay in the lungs, creating all types of reactions.  Some obvious, like allergic, some less obvious, some barely noticeable, all humans differ to foreign particles in their lungs, hence why some smokers die of lung cancer at 35 and others at 95.

Festool Hepa filters (last filter on system) captures dust particles down to 1 micron.  The more aggressive a filter, the greater the restriction on air flow.  Remember, a vac pulls air, and then must exhaust the air after filtration.  The greater the filtration, the less suction.  The system runs from point of suction, to point of exhaust.  To maximize efficiency, (or to minimize suction loss) the fine filtration (HEPA filter) should be designed with the largest possible surface area.  This is the key to minimizing the filters restriction on suction.  This is where Festool Vacs shine.... they designed a Vac from the ground up, to maximize the amount of suction with the available power from standard 120V receptacles and at the same time, maximized filtration to prevent the deadly small particulate from re entering the work space where we can breathe them into our lungs, long after the cut is made.  And yet, all this in a portable, lightweight and quiet unit.  Festool knows their market very well...

A small caveat though.... the weak link in this chain is often at the point of collection... its not easy to collect all the dust where its generated.  And while Festool does a better job than any maker in this regard (Fein being the other), with dust collection designed in every tool, there is some tools such as the saws which will allow some dust to bypass dust collection, hence why a dust mask is still required if you are concerned about lung health.

If portability is not an issue, and you have multiple areas where you need dust collection, the Festool vacs are clearly not the best choice.  The BEST and healthiest solution is a large cyclone (large relative to the task) with the exhaust air blown outside the shop.  The CFM at the tool will be much greater, capturing a higher % of dust at the point of generation, and the invisible < 10 - 20 micron fine particles the cyclone does not catch, "can" be exhausted to outside air, making the safest working environment. 

Of course, exhausting vac air is not always feasible, since every cubic foot of air you exhaust,  will introduce one cubic foot of fresh outside air.  Not always good when its below freezing outside or dealing with summer heat.    The main problem being varying inside tempertatures and high utility bills.  When not possible to exhaust waste air, using the largest and finest filtration collection bags is the next best option.  When I use my cyclone with Festool tools, the capture rate is much greater, as the suction is much greater.... but no surprise there, my cyclone pulls 40 amps at 240V, about 8x more potential than the Festool.  If 60% of suction is lost in the duct runs and filtration bags,  you are still way ahead of the game vs. using Festool.  For some tools, like the routers, with the proper accessories, the dust is so well contained in the dust shrouds, there is little difference between the two dust collection system. 

  The max. efficiency and safety of a dust collection system resides in the exhaust air.  By avoiding the very restrictive  final "fine" filtration increases suction and avoids re circulating the very fine particles that can even escape the fine bags.  IMO, this was one of Bill Pentz's excellent contribution to this field.  By not utilizing this "100% exhaust" method in his woodworking years, has led to his health ills today.  Bill is an incredibly kind, inteligent, articulate and gracious person who has taken a tremendous amount of his time and nrg helping fellow ww's avoid the health ills he must deal with on a daily basis.  Thank you again Bill Pentz for your contribution and your tireless work towards helping yoru fellow ww's... 

And remember, a dust mask should still be used when you are very close to the source of dust generation....mainly when there is a lot of dust generation,  such as cutting sheet goods.

 

 

 

 
Tim Sproul said:
Larger dust collectors like you cyclone have a large impeller that spins relatively slowly and moves a large amount of air.  This comes at the cost of losing the ability to move air as the restriction increases.  Shop vacs and Festool vacs are designed with a small impeller that spins really fast.  These don't move nearly as much air but are able to continue moving air even with high restriction.

An analogy is a go cart in 1st gear (festool vac) versus 5th gear (cyclone).

When there is no restriction - driving on a flat surface with no wind - then your go cart does just fine in 5th gear going 40 mph.  Once you start adding some restriction - 6% grade and 40 mph headwind which is the equivalent of more narrow hose and bends - 5th gear doesn't work so well - you start slowing down a lot and can easily stall.  But in 1st gear, the cart has no problems.

Will the motor of a cyclone last a lot longer than the motor of a shop vac?  Does anyone know how long a regularly-used Festool Vac can last for before it needs repairs?
 
 
Agree completely, and as Willy said, very well stated. Only quibble and it is more literal, than actual - that by definition HEPA's filter particles down to .3 microns with 99.97 % efficiency. Bill Pentz has done probably more than anyone, or at least as much as anyone, in advancing the cause for truly improved dust collection.

Bob
 
>  Will the motor of a cyclone last a lot longer than the motor of a shop vac?

                       
                                              Unfortunately, the variance in motor quality is so great for both applications, its hard to answer without more details regarding the quality of the motor.    A good Baldor motor can run 5 - 10 years under heavy use on a cyclone, easily...less use = greater life.  In general, start / stops and load is what dictates motor life..... oh yeah,  also, proper heat removal increases longevity...

>  Does anyone know how long a regularly-used Festool Vac can last for before it needs repairs?

Good Question...  You never hear of any complaints or failures... 

Thx for the correction on the .3 micron particle size for Festool Hepa filters...  The 1 micron I was quoting is about the very best you can do for the cyclone cloth bags...which is usually only when the bags get clogged...when the bags are new,  2 - 3 micron is more realisitc.  This is a huge difference.  Of course, they make large HEPA like filtration for the cyclones as well..... but more often you see the bags in use.  $$

 
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