Upcoming CXS / TXS 18

[Cheese]

Here, quick grab from an analyzer app on the phone, showing the distinct sound signature at 2500 Hz.
This is not full throttle, but somewhere at 2/3rds of the trigger, I would estimate.

Interesting... [member=63474]grobkuschelig[/member] ...what phone app is that?

 

[squall_line]

Here, quick grab from an analyzer app on the phone, showing the distinct sound signature at 2500 Hz.
This is not full throttle, but somewhere at 2/3rds of the trigger, I would estimate.

Interesting... [member=63474]grobkuschelig[/member] ...what phone app is that?

Looks like it's Spectrum Analyzer RTA, from ONYX Apps, $20 on the Apple App store.

 

[Imemiter]

Loudness is the next dust collection and I'd love to see Festool get out in front of this.

 

[grobkuschelig]

Looks like it's Spectrum Analyzer RTA, from ONYX Apps, $20 on the Apple App store.

Spot on. [emoji1303]

 

[mrboult]

Loudness is the next dust collection and I'd love to see Festool get out in front of this.

Spot on

I’m pretty sure I’ll be buying the new CXS12 when it arrives.

If festool were clever they’d sell a ‘basic’ version,  without a systainer,  with one battery,  for around the usual cost of a ‘basic’ festool drill. I think that would shift a lot of drills.

 

[squall_line]

If festool were clever they’d sell a ‘basic’ version,  without a systainer,  with one battery,  for around the usual cost of a ‘basic’ festool drill. I think that would shift a lot of drills.

Maybe in Europe, but North America will get a Plus or Set.  The only tool I can think of that has been sold consistently in the US without a Systainer was the RAP and then the Vac-SYS pump after all of the rigamarole with UL listing the Systainerized model.  Otherwise, there hasn't really ever been much choice for us to get or not get a Systainer.

I've noticed Festool USA cutting way back on SKUs recently, too, especially as it concerns different accessory or battery offerings.  I don't have access to their sales data, so I can't say for sure whether it's reasonable or not.

 

[mrboult]

If festool were clever they’d sell a ‘basic’ version,  without a systainer,  with one battery,  for around the usual cost of a ‘basic’ festool drill. I think that would shift a lot of drills.

Maybe in Europe, but North America will get a Plus or Set.  The only tool I can think of that has been sold consistently in the US without a Systainer was the RAP and then the Vac-SYS pump after all of the rigamarole with UL listing the Systainerized model.  Otherwise, there hasn't really ever been much choice for us to get or not get a Systainer.

I've noticed Festool USA cutting way back on SKUs recently, too, especially as it concerns different accessory or battery offerings.  I don't have access to their sales data, so I can't say for sure whether it's reasonable or not.

Didn’t realise that. However NA has been blessed more than Europe in recent years, with competitive industry pricing on the 18v drill line. 

 

[Mr Speaker]

Update 1: Toolnation.nl (the vendor that is refusing my return), answered me. I looked everything up and I reported the noise issue within a day and requested a return in 10 days, so well withing the 14 day trial period. So no they are offering to "do a check". That rubs me the wrong way because it is another way to tell me they will not be taking back the CXS 18.

Update 2: Festool reached out to me and tomorrow I will be measuring a bunch of tools, including other CXS 18 models. With my NTI XT2, which is a class I device. It also does spectral analysis, but they are difficult to export and that is why I posted Arta screen shots. I will report back what the findings are. The feedback above of around 2.5/2.7 kHz whine at around 2/3 trigger depression is consistent with my experience. That means I will likely not be using this hardware version of the CSX 18

I also want to say I agree that noise control is the next "dust control". I work in audio, and noise control. With some equipment you expect to need hearing protection, like routers and cicular saws. But nobody will use hearing protection with an electric screwdriver. And working with the noise levels the CXS 18 now produces you run a risk. I know all about the calculation (8 hours at 80 dBSPL and half that for each 3 dB louder), that would mean 48 minutes a day. That would be at 1 meter. But how many of us use these at inches away from our head? And inside say, a kitchen cabinet?

 

[Mr Speaker]

Update. Festool is kind enough to take the discussion out of it and I can return the CXS 18. I measured a bunch of equipment and confirmed that  the CXS 18 is just louder. It is what it does. I think the issue is solvable though, so I will be looking out for hardware version 2.

I can also confirm the rumors that the CXS 12 is coming. I held one in my hand today. Alas the drive frequency is the same as the 18 V version, so the sound produced is the same. The battery can be charged by the standard charger and the size and weight are perfect, even better than the CXS 18. It is the same size as the legacy CXS. Setting the max torque to about makes this tool acceptable in noise levels btw. So there is a workaround. Coming in september.

 

[squall_line]

I can also confirm the rumors that the CXS 12 is coming. I held one in my hand today. Alas the drive frequency is the same as the 18 V version, so the sound produced is the same. The battery can be charged by the standard charger and the size and weight are perfect, even better than the CXS 18. It is the same size as the legacy CXS. Setting the max torque to about makes this tool acceptable in noise levels btw. So there is a workaround. Coming in september.

It's somewhat exciting to hear that the CXS 12 that was shown in California isn't just vaporware.  I don't think it bodes well for the longevity of the CXS 10 if it's the same size or smaller than the CXS 10 and uses a battery that fits on the standard TCL/SCA charger.  I wouldn't be surprised if the CXS 10 left the catalog for 2024 in that case.  Which is a shame because of the noise.

 

[Cheese]

It's somewhat exciting to hear that the CXS 12 that was shown in California isn't just vaporware.  I don't think it bodes well for the longevity of the CXS 10 if it's the same size or smaller than the CXS 10 and uses a battery that fits on the standard TCL/SCA charger.  I wouldn't be surprised if the CXS 10 left the catalog for 2024 in that case.  Which is a shame because of the noise.

I'm all in on the CXS 12 if it's everything it's supposed to be because of the 1600 RPM drill speed. But if it's noisy, heavy, cumbersome and clunky, count me out and I'll be the first to purchase another of the remaining CXS 10.2 drills. They are nice...my go to despite the fact I like Milwaukee equipment.

 

[Mr Speaker]

It's somewhat exciting to hear that the CXS 12 that was shown in California isn't just vaporware.  I don't think it bodes well for the longevity of the CXS 10 if it's the same size or smaller than the CXS 10 and uses a battery that fits on the standard TCL/SCA charger.  I wouldn't be surprised if the CXS 10 left the catalog for 2024 in that case.  Which is a shame because of the noise.

I'm all in on the CXS 12 if it's everything it's supposed to be because of the 1600 RPM drill speed. But if it's noisy, heavy, cumbersome and clunky, count me out and I'll be the first to purchase another of the remaining CXS 10.2 drills. They are nice...my go to despite the fact I like Milwaukee equipment.

Not sure about bean containment policy here.. The CXS 10 will go end of life. The CXS 12 will have a proprietairy battery that is smaller, and will not fit on other 18 V equipment, but will be charged bij the existing charger. The picture I doubted, was a real picture. I like it a lot, save for that noise. If they fix that, I will buy it. I would love to work on the noise problem.

 

[Mr Speaker]

So Festool was kind enough to contact me directly and they solved the issue, great customer service. Yesterday Toolnation contacted me, and apologized profusely. They offered to remedy the situation and gave me a gift card. Great, and appreciated.
They also said something weird. They said the associate I emailed with was no longer with the company and that they looked at my purchase history. (I had bough something like two dozen Festool tools plus other stuff in the past years with them). They said: “Now if you were a small customer that would be one thing, but you are not and so we want to make it right”. I think they should make it right regardless of the size of the customer. Or am I nitpicking here? Or what the Germans call Ameisenbumsen.

 

[squall_line]

So Festool was kind enough to contact me directly and they solved the issue, great customer service. Yesterday Toolnation contacted me, and apologized profusely. They offered to remedy the situation and gave me a gift card. Great, and appreciated.
They also said something weird. They said the associate I emailed with was no longer with the company and that they looked at my purchase history. (I had bough something like two dozen Festool tools plus other stuff in the past years with them). They said: “Now if you were a small customer that would be one thing, but you are not and so we want to make it right”. I think they should make it right regardless of the size of the customer. Or am I nitpicking here? Or what the Germans call Ameisenbumsen.

My take, working in customer relations for far too long (it's eating my soul):

Big customers always want to feel like they receive increased attention because they are big.  The thing is, there is likely always going to be someone bigger.  I have worked with clients who, in their respective state of the United States, are in the top 3 size-wise.  Nationwide, though, they don't even break the bottom 25%.

As you pointed out, it's one thing to treat bigger clients that way, it's another to say the quiet part out loud and respond in a way that can be interpreted as neglecting smaller clients.  Personally, I'm much more likely to remain loyal to a business who treats me as their most important client during every interaction rather than one who treats me as if I could disappear tomorrow and they wouldn't even notice (which, let's be clear, is absolutely true).

Similar story to a repair/remodel project I had done at my house recently: the general contractor treated me with a ton of respect, always kept me in the loop on schedule changes, complications that arose, progress, etc.  This is while they were also working on a major full-building restaurant overhaul/fit out, house additions, and other projects much bigger than mine.  Their flooring subcontractor treated me like a number: left out important details at every turn, assumed that I had industry knowledge that I had no business knowing, and when I DID have knowledge about a subject (namely dust control while grinding concrete), acted like I had no idea what I was talking about.  I was disposable to that subcontractor because I was a first-time client tightening instead of loosening my budget, and residential instead of commercial.

I will continue to do work with the general, who has always treated me like one of their most important customers, but the flooring sub will never darken my foyer entry again.

 

[mino]

Not sure about bean containment policy here.. The CXS 10 will go end of life. The CXS 12 will have a proprietairy battery that is smaller, and will not fit on other 18 V equipment, but will be charged bij the existing charger. The picture I doubted, was a real picture. I like it a lot, save for that noise. If they fix that, I will buy it. I would love to work on the noise problem.

I presume the (new) 12V packs will be fully compatible with the (still sold) original 12V "big" packs.

This also means these 12V(10.8V) packs would work with the PS(B)C 420, the DRC/PDC drills etc. Basically with all the "bigg battery" tools which are 10.8(-18V) capable. That is not a small selection, even if most are not made anymore. This would form an excellent platform for a cordless trimmer ...

I for one have the C12 Li, DRC 18/4 and the PSC 420. All of which work on the 10.8/12V pack which came with the C12 Li.

For PSC 420 that is even preferred as the 10.8V pack is about 100g lighter then my 3.1Ah 18V packs.

 

[mrboult]

Not sure about bean containment policy here.. The CXS 10 will go end of life. The CXS 12 will have a proprietairy battery that is smaller, and will not fit on other 18 V equipment, but will be charged bij the existing charger. The picture I doubted, was a real picture. I like it a lot, save for that noise. If they fix that, I will buy it. I would love to work on the noise problem.

I presume the (new) 12V packs will be fully compatible with the (still sold) original 12V "big" packs.

This also means these 12V(10.8V) packs would work with the PS(B)C 420, the DRC/PDC drills etc. Basically with all the "bigg battery" tools which are 10.8(-18V) capable. That is not a small selection, even if most are not made anymore. This would form an excellent platform for a cordless trimmer ...

I for one have the C12 Li, DRC 18/4 and the PSC 420. All of which work on the 10.8/12V pack which came with the C12 Li.

For PSC 420 that is even preferred as the 10.8V pack is about 100g lighter then my 3.1Ah 18V packs.

The cxs 12 definitely won’t work with the original 12v liIon packs. The design of the new cxs has the handle sticking down behind the ultra compact battery pack. There wouldn’t be room to slide a full size pack on.

Hopefully your other dream is a reality, and these new ultra compact 12v batteries do work on the bigger 18v tools.

And finally, i believe that the current 18v line is more compatible with 12v (from the c12) batteries than your listed items. The t18 and c18 will work with 12v packs, also i believe the newer TPC and TID drills, plus syslite & sysrock.
I don’t know about the new kapex, table saw or the TSC? And the new vacuums surely won’t work.

 

[Crazyraceguy]

So Festool was kind enough to contact me directly and they solved the issue, great customer service. Yesterday Toolnation contacted me, and apologized profusely. They offered to remedy the situation and gave me a gift card. Great, and appreciated.
They also said something weird. They said the associate I emailed with was no longer with the company and that they looked at my purchase history. (I had bough something like two dozen Festool tools plus other stuff in the past years with them). They said: “Now if you were a small customer that would be one thing, but you are not and so we want to make it right”. I think they should make it right regardless of the size of the customer. Or am I nitpicking here? Or what the Germans call Ameisenbumsen.

I think this is a case of an inexperienced associate saying "the quiet part out loud". It's one thing for that to be a policy, but entirely different to tell the customer.
The real failure in this thinking is that if a guy doesn't have a "purchase history", it doesn't mean he wouldn't in the future. You may have just alienated him with bad service from the beginning.

Personally, my history is a mixed and not dedicated to any one supplier. That's for a few reasons.
All of my first go-round with Festool was through my local woodworking store. They are pretty big and sort-of an industrial supplier too.
This would have been 2014-2019. At that point a shop-fire melted it all.
The first round of re-purchases was at another retail/industrial store that was the supplier of the big machines for the company. They made an exception for us and opened on a Saturday. The company President, shop foreman, and I had free-rein. Between Festool and Bessey, I dropped 10k that day alone. The problem is, they are 125 miles away and not open Saturdays, so I never bought another thing from them.
The rest has been from the local place, Amazon (which ends up being Hartville hardware most of the time) or Toolnut. I have used Toolnut for new items as they were being released, mostly because they do pre-orders. They did well, most of the time, and screwed-up badly twice. To their credit, they fixed it, but it never should have happened in the first place. I'm a bit mixed on them since.
All that to say, I don't know if anyone would call me a big customer? That's all very relative anyway.
Total volume, maybe? but I'm just one person, buying for myself. If it all came from the same place? again maybe?  I would guess that "big" customers are buyers for companies who are supplying several people. So that begs the question, "What is a big customer"?
To the original question, yes, they should want to make it right for a first-time purchaser too. You might push away a future big customer by failing to do that.

What is making these so loud? Is this a side-effect of the brushless motor?
I have both brushless and brushed Makita drills and impact drivers and notice no difference in them as far as noise? IIRC, the Makita trim routers are brushless? again no "electronic frequency" noises.
The TS60 definitely sounds different from the TS55, but it is AC powered and it's "different" not necessarily louder. Certainly not annoyingly loud

 

[mino]

...
What is making these so loud? Is this a side-effect of the brushless motor?
I have both brushless and brushed Makita drills and impact drivers and notice no difference in them as far as noise? IIRC, the Makita trim routers are brushless? again no "electronic frequency" noises.
...

My 2c is this is the consequence of the youtube ****posters culture of today. The raw power is put on the unequivocal piedestal simply because it is easy to show in that 15-miute joke of an "objective" review.

After all the complaints (and lost sales) all around - even here - how weak the C18 and the CXS are, hell, even the TPC (!) which is a power moster otherwise. It is clear that Festool chose to go for power ahead of acoustics.

Now why it does apply to some and not others - you will see this in all tools which are "after" maximum torque from a small motor. The trim routers do not need torque and the saws have the space/wight budget to not need pushing the motors to their limits.

I am confident the original C12/15/18 line *could* have been 20-30% stonger IF they made the same choice then. When one looks at the motor size, it is comparable to 40-50% stronger drills of the time while using cutting edge tech - for the time.

The good thing for us is we know this, so can vote with our feet.

For me this means not parting with my C12 - with the 1.5Ah battery it is only 90g heavier than the CXS 18 - and instead getting the original CXS to complement. I should into a T18+3 as well, the way this is going ...

 

[woodferret]

BLDC motors make 'unusual' noises.  Some of it is mechanical resonance from the quick changing of the magnetic fields that drive it.  Annoying enough that TI has a driver specific to noise reduction...
https://e2e.ti.com/blogs_/b/industr...the-noise-about-sensorless-bldc-motor-drivers

Unfortunately, drills are small => makes high pitch resonance.  The smaller the package, the worse it seems to get. 

edit: I ended up like mino.  I just grabbed the existing CXS because it doesn't suffer from this problem.

 

[gharel2]

Spotted the CXS 12 and the TXS 12 in the recent EXO 18 cordless family pic!

[attachimg=1]