Upcoming tool purchase

[lemonade]

Hi all,
I've been coming here for a lot of my information for the last 2 years - so thanks to all of you! This is just my first time where I have needed advise and haven't found it in my searches.

I've just completed a bit of side work where I promised myself to acquire something nice, My tool purchases till now have been to further my capacity as a very amateur carpenter. I have a TS55 with varying track lengths, RO150, Carvex jigsaw, dust extractor, CXS, and some other nick knack clamps and such. I have a lot of non-Festool stuff too.
I have about $2k to play with and I'd like to make the most of it. On the "want list" are the Kapex, Domino 500, OF1010, or MFK700 set.

I have a 15 year old Hitachi miter saw. It does really nothing well except for cut things. I'm not impressed with the miters or bevels and the cuts leave much to be desired (even with a new blade). A Kapex looks nice to have, but that's a lot of cash for a miter saw.

A domino would expand my capability greatly and would be a welcome addition to the collection. I have some cabinet projects lined up.

I have a Bosch plunge/fixed base router that I use on a limited basis. The setup is difficult for me and I try to avoid using a router because of the setup complexity. I recently built a small router table that I intend to start using the fixed base in. All that said, I'm entertaining an OF1010 or MFK700 set. I have done a fair bit of laminate, veneer, and edge banding so I have a keen eye on the MFK - especially b/c the Bosch is huge and difficult to balance on the side without tipping (yes, I've made an offset base but it's still a pain). It sounds like the 1010 or the 700 would do this task well. The 1010 has more options with regard to LR32 or using the guide rail but also may take the burden off the setup of the Bosch.

So, what are some things that I haven't considered? I'm in no hurry to make the decision and I often start projects just to realize what is needed or what might make the job easier. Sell me something!

 

[DynaGlide]

When I have cash to burn I usually tackle purchases in order of most expensive to least expensive. Reason being I find it easier to save up for smaller buys (couple hundred) versus larger purchases (500 and up).

That said, you'd do well to get a solid Dewalt miter saw and a Domino. I had the DWS780 with the XPS light for several years and it was a wonderful miter saw. I have the Kapex now and from a cut quality standpoint I can't tell a difference. Spencer Lewis (Insider Carpentry) uses Dewalt saws mainly and turns out some incredible trim work.

You could probably fit one of the routers in as well with this approach.

Matt

 

[sancho57]

all personal preferance based on your needs/wants

 

[Packard]

At the risk of sounding like a heretic, the table saw is the one piece of equipment that can accomplish the most. It can accurately rip, cross cut, dado, miter, make finger joints, cut tenons, make raised panels for cabinet doors and more. 

I am using my track saw more and more, but it will never quite take the place of a table saw. 

So, in my opinion, get a table saw, preferably with a 48" fence system.

 

[MikeGE]

That said, you'd do well to get a solid Dewalt miter saw and a Domino. I had the DWS780 with the XPS light for several years and it was a wonderful miter saw. I have the Kapex now and from a cut quality standpoint I can't tell a difference.

I did the same.  I miss the shadow light on the DeWalt, but the greatly improved dust and chip collection on the Kapex makes up for it.

 

[DynaGlide]

That said, you'd do well to get a solid Dewalt miter saw and a Domino. I had the DWS780 with the XPS light for several years and it was a wonderful miter saw. I have the Kapex now and from a cut quality standpoint I can't tell a difference.

I did the same.  I miss the shadow light on the DeWalt, but the greatly improved dust and chip collection on the Kapex makes up for it.

Same. The laser is a toy compared to that shadow line.

 

[ChuckM]

At the risk of sounding like a heretic,  Snip.

Heretic? Not at all.

The table saws (of one type or another) are the most popular machines for hobbyists in at least North America. When I listed my Ridgid contractor table saw after installing the SawStop, I was inundated with an unbelievably large number of inquiries and offers within hours. That told me so many people out there were looking for used table saws. As per my sales rule, I sold it to the first buyer who answered my ad, who happened to be a high school fellow. (Higher bidders didn't sway me from my rule.) I threw in a cross-cut sled, blades and some table saw jigs, which I needed to make new ones for the new saw.

 

[afish]

Hi all,
I've been coming here for a lot of my information for the last 2 years - so thanks to all of you! This is just my first time where I have needed advise and haven't found it in my searches.

I've just completed a bit of side work where I promised myself to acquire something nice, My tool purchases till now have been to further my capacity as a very amateur carpenter. I have a TS55 with varying track lengths, RO150, Carvex jigsaw, dust extractor, CXS, and some other nick knack clamps and such. I have a lot of non-Festool stuff too.
I have about $2k to play with and I'd like to make the most of it. On the "want list" are the Kapex, Domino 500, OF1010, or MFK700 set.

I have a 15 year old Hitachi miter saw. It does really nothing well except for cut things. I'm not impressed with the miters or bevels and the cuts leave much to be desired (even with a new blade). A Kapex looks nice to have, but that's a lot of cash for a miter saw.

A domino would expand my capability greatly and would be a welcome addition to the collection. I have some cabinet projects lined up.

I have a Bosch plunge/fixed base router that I use on a limited basis. The setup is difficult for me and I try to avoid using a router because of the setup complexity. I recently built a small router table that I intend to start using the fixed base in. All that said, I'm entertaining an OF1010 or MFK700 set. I have done a fair bit of laminate, veneer, and edge banding so I have a keen eye on the MFK - especially b/c the Bosch is huge and difficult to balance on the side without tipping (yes, I've made an offset base but it's still a pain). It sounds like the 1010 or the 700 would do this task well. The 1010 has more options with regard to LR32 or using the guide rail but also may take the burden off the setup of the Bosch.

So, what are some things that I haven't considered? I'm in no hurry to make the decision and I often start projects just to realize what is needed or what might make the job easier. Sell me something!

There is A LOT to consider for starting cabinet work and I hate to see someone drop a lot of money upfront to learn money was better spent elsewhere.  I will warn you I do not by Festool because its Festool I only buy Festool when I feel its the best option for the cost.

1. IMO the Kapex isnt worth the the price over something like the 780 or nice Makita. Not trying to ruffle feathers and I know some love it but for most its not worth the price.  You can get beautiful cuts from a 780 it lacks slightly behind the Kapex for dust collection but only slightly. IMO the best thing the Kapex has over the 780 is the bevel adjustment and the flush to wall feature.  95% of my cuts dont require me to adjust the bevel. If this will be a shop saw then you can get the Makita that will back tight to a wall as well. My feelings are the same with festool routers I would rather have 3 routers than 1 festool.

2. For cabinet building it really depends on the material, hardware and volume you plan to do. Things to consider:

A. will boxes be mostly plywood or melamine? plywood boxes I say skip the domino and get a 1/4" crown staple gun. If you are using something else wood dowels and confirmat screws work really good. You can staple melamine boxes together too but I would still dowel it. The domino works here too however the consumables are more so its a volume issue

B. What type of drawers (wood or metal) ? wood drawers is where the domino shines for me.  I love the look of exposed domino drawers.  They look like a modern version of dovetail to me.  Most non woodworkers think there cool and unique too.  However a exposed or hidden dowel drawer looks cheap. I used to build all my drawers with exposed Dominos till BB hit $200 a sheet and I switched to metal drawers (i have posted about them before if you search) but I love the ease of them compared to building wood drawers and they are cheaper than comparable custom wood drawers.

C. type of edge banding? there are lots but pvc and wood are most popular.  Wood can be attached with an Iron the pvc is really hit or miss with any manual method.  If anyone is serious about cab's some type of EVA edgebanding system is almost a must.  The Iron is a nightmare.  If your building face frame cabs then this is less of an issue. Frameless cab's a good edgebander will be your biggest time saver.

D. System holes. I was a huge fan of the LR32 system before cnc.  I tried all the cheaper jigs but nothing compared to the LR32 IMO if funds are tight look to adapt a dewalt/makita etc router and skip the 1010.  If you go with dowels the DDF40 can do both but mafell jig isnt cheap either. Either way you will need some type of way drill all the system holes accurately and reliably.

E. Trimming Unless you already have everything above locked down and money to burn save your money on a MFK.  Unless your a pro doing a ton of trimming you will be much farther ahead with a cordless trimmer and a lil' lipper from fast cap.  it wont have dust collection but for trimming edgebanding there isnt much "dust" it is messy but since the cuttings tend to be bigger and heavy it falls to the ground not floating in the air.

If I was just starting out and already had a good way to produce accurate cuts. I would get DF500, LR32 with dewalt router, conturo or some other EVA edge bander, plus some misc. hand tools

 

[afish]

At the risk of sounding like a heretic,  Snip.

Heretic? Not at all.

The table saws (of one type or another) are the most popular machines for hobbyists in at least North America. When I listed my Ridgid contractor table saw after installing the SawStop, I was inundated with an unbelievably large number of inquiries and offers within hours. That told me so many people out there were looking for used table saws. As per my sales rule, I sold it to the first buyer who answered my ad, who happened to be a high school fellow. (Higher bidders didn't sway me from my rule.) I threw in a cross-cut sled, blades and some table saw jigs, which I needed to make new ones for the new saw.

Cant agree more. I have bought and sold several Unisaws.  If you watch and buy right you can make or use the saw for free for all the time you have owned it.  The last one I bought was newish version that the guy had in storage and unprotected so the top looked really rough along with the front rail.  He told me his highest offer had been 300 so I gave him 400 which he happily accepted and I smiled all the way home.  Took about 4-5 hours to clean it up.  I used that saw for years and easily sold it for $1400.  As long as you keep it around the 1500 mark the saw will most likely still be worth $1500 5-10 years from now. Its just like having money in the bank.  Backhoes are the same way but thats a different forum.

 

[Birdhunter]

I’ve got a ton of Festool stuff including the TS55 and a slew of tracks. That said, my SawStop is the last tool I would give up. Mine is the Industrial model (big and solid). For power and high precision, it is perfect.

I’m building a large dresser and I’m using Baltic birch for the drawer bodies. I’m trimming the drawer edges with 1/4” oak strips. The SawStop is ideal for ripping off a bunch of strips just by setting the fence. The TS55 with the long rail was ideal for breaking down the big sheets. Both tools have a sweet spot.

 

[woodbutcherbower]

+1 on the DeWalt DWS780. Hard to beat for the price, and frees up $$$$ of your budget for other tools.

 

[lemonade]

Wow, these are really good responses! Thanks!

I Had a table saw but had to sell it when I downsized the single car garage to make a mudroom. Now I'm left with a very small garage to work in. I started down the road with a track saw and some tracks. I've had to rethink all my storage and work methods to fit things into my space. The systainer system is really nice to have in this instance. Especially the dust extractors - I can stack working tools on top and still have room for the task at hand.  I am not married to a Festool purchase. I mostly started in the Festool world because I was tired of having to make tools to use my tools. Turns out, since I started in this (admittedly more expense) route, my carpentry game has increased significantly and I am able to pump out projects quickly with less aggravation. My wife and I consider that a win.

I believe I share the overall opinion of the Kapex here. I had already struck it from the list but my WIFE asked me to CONSIDER IT! For now, it's off the list. I'll look more closely at the Makita (due to space savings) and the DeWalt.

I don't know how to build cabinets, doors, or drawers as of yet. I have a Kreg pocket screw jig that I had intended to use for my cabinet construction. Those will be of 3/4" plywood. Many of the projects I tackle are more for learning how to do something and less of cost restraints.

My edge banding has consisted of the iron on PVC. What a pain. I have done a lot of hardwood banding as well. I do a lot of surface refinishing with different veneer. It'd be nice to be able to flush trim without a hassle. I'd be ok using a typical trim router but sometimes it's worth buying into a system where you don't have to reinvent the wheel every time you want to use it.

My initial want was the MFK700 and then I looked some more and wrote it off the list due to plunge restrictions. I'm not sure where I stand with it now - which is where you guys come in. I have a few small projects to tackle before I start my cabinet project so I have plenty of time to figure things out.

 

[afish]

Any which way you cut it getting into building cabinetry gets expensive.  Table saw isnt a must but a nice to have.  The only tablesaw I have now is a Bosch jobsite saw.  You can get it done with just a tracksaw a good sized MFT bench will be very very helpful.  Im not a fan of the MFT/3 either (sorry festool) but there are some good options. If you are wanting to do cabinets on a regular basis I would take the money from the Kapex, MFK and put it towards conturo and lr32.  If its a one time deal your better off seeing if there is a place near by to rent time on their edge bander or cnc.

 

[Packard]

You can build cabinet boxes using just the track saw and a pocket hole jig.  If you add face frames, then a chop saw is handy.  You can make cabinet doors using just the track saw and a table-mounted router.

Indeed, I have seen videos of people building cabinet boxes using a circular saw and a straight edge.  I cannot imagine that I would be happy with the results though.

An 18 gage pin nailer is handy for alignment if you are using pocket holes.  It keeps the boards from shifting during assembly.  I switched to dowel construction and that is not an issue for me.  I do use pocket holes for face frames (unless they would show, then a Rockler dowel jig works fine).

I find picture framing clamps handy when building the boxes.  I use 8 of them to hold the box square as I assemble.  I have never had to use diagonal clamps when I use these.  They are very cheap and work better than the newer options.

They are four for $15.00 on Amazon.  You really need 8.

 

[ChuckM]

Picture framing squares -- make it 10, if you have dividers to do as well. The extra pair comes handy when dry fitting.

[attachimg=1]

Edit: If you own a Domino Joiner, you don't need any of them. [tongue]

 

[jeh]

At the risk of sounding like a heretic, the table saw is the one piece of equipment that can accomplish the most. It can accurately rip, cross cut, dado, miter, make finger joints, cut tenons, make raised panels for cabinet doors and more. 

I am using my track saw more and more, but it will never quite take the place of a table saw. 

So, in my opinion, get a table saw, preferably with a 48" fence system.

I like to call it reality. Nothing can touch the accuracy and repeatability of a properly dialed in table saw. The track saw is a great tool (I have a Mafell) and I regularly use it and it is worth noting there are things it can do that a table saw cannot. The easy example is when you need to bring the saw to the material because you cannot move it to a table saw. Another is being able to cut any angle you want without requiring a sliding table like you would on a table saw.

There is very little you cannot do with a track saw, however the penalty is time. I can be setup and ready to cut in under 10 seconds and know when I slide the fence to 8.5" I am going to get an 8.5" cut every single time. This applies even if I change to a different cut width and then back. No futzing with a tape measure and nudging the rail every time I need to change cuts (I realize the parallel guides are helpful and alleviate some of this when repeatability is needed).

If you ever decide to get a table saw spend the most you can and I'd strongly suggest a SawStop though there are plenty of great saws that can be had for less. Stay away from the cheap ones as they are ticking time bombs. The build quality is just not there and cannot be there in a saw that is a few 100 dollars.

 

[serge0n]

I like to call it reality. Nothing can touch the accuracy and repeatability of a properly dialed in table saw.

I wholeheartedly agree. Just yesterday I had to make a cut that is precisely 535.4 mm. It took me 10 seconds to set it up on my table saw. How do you achieve that with a track saw when thickness of the pencil line alone is 0.5-0.7mm?
With a table saw you can easily get the fence to 535 mm and then use shims to move it 0.4 mm. Or use a DRO. No marking required.
Track saw is a wonderful tool, but is not a replacement for a proper table saw.

Regarding the topic, I agree with others on getting a DF500 and a DWS780. Dewalt's miter is obnoxiously loud, jerky (no soft start) and takes a ton of space, but it's very accurate and built like a tank. Shadow line is also way better than lasers.
DF500 is a game changer.

 

[Crazyraceguy]

The MFK700 is effectively an edgeband trimmer. It can do other things, but it is somewhat of a struggle. There are other routers, even fairly cheap trim routers, that can do those other tasks without the hassle. The MFK700 excels in its place, if you need that "place", it is really the way to go. If your needs are more general, other offerings can save you some money to put in other tools.

A hobbyist in a small shop may benefit from not having a tablesaw. The TS55 can replace it and take a lot less space doing so. The exception to this is if you need to cut small parts, where a sled on a tablesaw would be better. Personally, I think you need both, they each have their strengths and work together well, but you could very well build cabinets with a tracksaw only.

I build cabinets, drawers, and plenty of other things with my DF500. I use it constantly. It was in fact my first Festool purchase and I would have a hard time doing without it.

As afish stated "I would rather have 3 routers than one Festool", couldn't agree more. One of those 3 would be a multi-base kit, because at least one of those routers needs to be a plunge router. You may not need it to be that way all of the time, but be sure to have it available. My pick there is Milwaukee 5615. As a fixed-base model, it is the most ergonomic thing available. I comes as a 2 base set too.
Multiple routers are very much a convenience though. They speed things up a lot, but that may not really be a concern for a hobbyist?

Mine is a rather extreme experience though, space does not matter to me at all, speed and convenience are the most important things. Since I make my living with them, the cost works out over time, so that is not really a thing either, unlike a hobbyist.

Edited to add.
I see everyone recommending the DWS780, which is a 12" saw. Personally, I am not a fan of 12" saws unless you actually need that capacity. (like cutting 4" x 6") The 12" models, of any brand, do not gain any real capacity (as far as cross cut) in the thinner materials we mostly cut. The deflection of a 12" blade is always a problem for me. I have never used any brand mitersaw that can overcome this, it's a blade problem, not the saw specifically.  I much prefer the 10" Dewalt (DW717) with the added benefit of being able to share blades with the tablesaw too. When you get into specialty blades for things like metal or solid surface, it is especially nice to need only one to cover both machines.

 

[ChuckM]

Snip.
DF500 is a game changer.

It cost me a lot more money than I realized...it has made my dado stack cutter, SawStop dado ZCI and SawStop dado safety cartridge redundant!  The dado trio isn't cheap.

But it's worth it. Here in an antique restoration assignment, I used the machine to elongate screw holes to allow the top to move:

 

[afish]

keeping in mind 1 car garage is really really tight.  If money is not an issue then yes table saw.  One of my unisaws had a good mobile base and outfeed rollers that collapsed down allowing it to be pushed into a corner.  It also makes a great storage bench to stack systainers on the problem is the set and put away time each night.  I always had at least a 2 car garage so it wasn't as big of an issue.  In a one car you are going to be working in the driveway part of the time.  You always need space to stack parts and there tends to be lots of different parts dont even get me started if you are going to spray them too.  Drying time becomes a real issue.  It really comes down to budget and space.  If the budget is not unlimited look for tools that will improve the slowest part of the process first.  Or make the least enjoyable more enjoyable.  I'm scarred for life from that stupid Iron the worst part is the newer ones have all these auto shutoff safety features so its always turning off and good luck finding an old school one to buy.  Good edge banding is a hallmark of good cabinet building I can spot diy stuff a mile away but most of the general public probably dont notice.  Good ceilings in restaurants is another for me.  If the ceiling tiles look older than me I walk out. This thread is making me want that mafell edge bander more and more...