Using Kapex to cut V-notches on stair balusters?

[tk21769]

For wooden porch railings around my house, I'm using a design that features a sloped-top bottom rail to shed water. I buy the railing parts from a firm in Texas that will cut v-notches in the baluster bottoms they deliver. However, they don't offer this service for stair railings, which require compound mitre cuts.  My insurance company is giving me until April to install railings along the concrete steps to my porch. A local contractor will do the job ... for $2598.  That's for labor only.  For that price, I figure I may as well invest in  the right tools to do it myself.

So ... what's the right tool?  For years, I've been getting by with hand tools, a track saw (Festool TS55), and a MFT 1080 (the old version of this table).  This is one of the first cases where I've come to the conclusion my tools (or my skills?) aren't quite up to the job. I can do it crudely like so:
1. set the saw depth to 1/2 the width of the baluster (1.25 inches divided by 2)
2. set the saw bevel angle to 30 degrees (to account for the bottom rail slope
3. set the miter fence to 35 degrees (to account for the stair slope)
4. cut half the notch; flip the work piece over 180 degrees; reset the miter to -35 degrees; cut the other half of the notch.

Doing this on the MFT  is very awkward, inefficient, and imprecise. Probably the biggest problem is getting the bevel angle and the depth to match exactly on both cuts, then repeat this exactly for 26 balusters.

How about the Kapex 60 or Kapex 120? I definitely could use a SCMS for lots of jobs around my place.  Would they offer the precision, accuracy, repeatability, ease of use, etc., for a job like this?  A Kapex 60 (cordless) with the mobility cart and extension wings would run $2300 + tax.  I could set it up right under the porch, where there is no electrical outlet.

 

[Crazyraceguy]

Maybe gang a bunch of them together, clamp them with the clamping elements for the MFT, and cut them all at once with the TS55?
That would eliminate the one-at-a-time and indexing on the Kapex

 

[cdconey]

I would just get a 120 degree v bit for the router and build a jig to cut the V-Notch in the bottom. Cut the balusters at the slope of the stairs, make a fence to align the balusters in the jig, clamp baluster in jig, use router to cut V-notch against end stop to prevent blow-out on exit pass. 

Or if you have a router table, make a sled to hold the baluster and run it thru. 

Depending upon the length of your baluster you could probably attach the jig to the side of the MFT.

 

[Crazyraceguy]

[member=514]cdconey[/member] that would definitely work, assuming you can find such a bit (and are willing to pay that price) but you are still running one piece at a time. Plus, you would have to pre-cut the angled ends on the mitersaw before routing. That's a lot of handing and you need to make the fixture too.

With the tracksaw method, all you would need to do is figure out the angle and offset the balusters accordingly. Cut halfway through, flip the whole mees over and do it again. I would assume that the top end is the same angle, but a flat/straight cut? Do that on the mitersaw against a stop and you are done.

 

[Packard]

I thought I had mentioned this, but I don’t see that I did.

Use your router to flat notches in the bottom rail exactly the width of the vertical staves.  Adjust the depth of the cut to yield a “square” on the bottom rail that is the exact size as the staves. 

At that point you can use a simple butt joint with a single screw to affix it at the bottom.  Spacing the notches and the depth of cut can be automatic with a simple router jig. 

Though note that the V-notches will yield a stronger joint, though usually, if the upper rail does not fail, it will prevent a fall. 

 

[cdconey]

[member=514]that would definitely work, assuming you can find such a bit (and are willing to pay that price)

They do exist and are far less costly than a kapex.

How much handling will be required to clean up the intersecting point if you cannot cut to the exact depth with the tracksaw? This will be the biggest challenge, depth of cut on the 30 degree angle is 0.7217".  If you over-cut, then you will have two kerfs which will allow water to infiltrate the joint.

It's only 26 peices. Make a mistake on one, just correct it.  Make a mistake on a gang, correct them all.

 

[Crazyraceguy]

[member=514]that would definitely work, assuming you can find such a bit (and are willing to pay that price)

They do exist and are far less costly than a kapex.

How much handling will be required to clean up the intersecting point if you cannot cut to the exact depth with the tracksaw? This will be the biggest challenge, depth of cut on the 30 degree angle is 0.7217".  If you over-cut, then you will have two kerfs which will allow water to infiltrate the joint.

It's only 26 peices. Make a mistake on one, just correct it.  Make a mistake on a gang, correct them all.

Oh yeah, agreed 100%. You have to have your wits about you.....and make test cuts [big grin]
Plus, the OP already owns the TS55. Depending on how you fixture the gang, you could cut the tops at the same time.
That's how I would do it, if this was presented to me at work. My dumb ass would probably try to put a Domino in there too  [eek] but that's kind of beyond the sense of normal thinking. (everything I build has to be shipped and handled by who knows who. I frequently have to build extra bracing into things for just that reason.
That high section of wall in my avatar pic was built too support part of a reception desk. It would only be mounted to a wall on the jobsite, so I needed a wall for it to attach to in the shop. After it was over, it became part of the back wall of my work space.
Oh, I forgot that I changed pics.
Here, this one

 

[peter halle]

I'd think about the router table / spline type jig approach.  Otherwise you could come up with something to use the MFT by clamping to the side an d making a jig to index.

Peter

 

[Michael Kellough]

Good opportunity to buy a table saw.

With that machine you just need to make a sliding sled and mount a 70 degree triangle fence next to the blade (perfectly set to 35 degrees to the blade on both sides).

Make the first cut with the baluster on the front of the triangle and the second cut on the back side of the triangle.

Then add a wooden fence and stop to the sled to cut the balusters to final length.

 

[RJNeal]

I recently did a job of replacing rotten rails and balusters on an old home.
The previous replacement only lasted 15 years or so. North exposure, two story house. Always in the shade.
I also saw the Stock from Texas,
I notice their idea about the rail having the taper on it as opposed to having a groove and small taper top blocks in between balusters.
I did order the new balusters and 2 newel post from them.
I did make my own rail with a tapered top.

I cup the balusters to length with my Kapex both the top with a rake and the bottom with a compound rate to accommodate the angled top rail.
48 balusters for the Stairs. No real problems.
The only small issue I had was the the balusters were sometime 1 7/16 x1 7/16 or 1 1/2.
So my set up with the stop block were off a little bit. I just centered them on the bottom rail. Set them with stainless steel bards and caulked them in.
The property owner loves them.
It really not and issues cutting them out once you know your angles.

Rick.

 

[Steve1]

...and don't forget the least expensive alternative

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[tk21769]

Use your router to flat notches in the bottom rail exactly the width of the vertical staves.  Adjust the depth of the cut to yield a “square” on the bottom rail that is the exact size as the staves. 

At that point you can use a simple butt joint with a single screw to affix it at the bottom.  Spacing the notches and the depth of cut can be automatic with a simple router jig. 

Though note that the V-notches will yield a stronger joint, though usually, if the upper rail does not fail, it will prevent a fall.

That might be a good approach if these were interior stairs, but they are exterior. The purpose of the sloped top bottom rail, plus the v-notched baluster bottoms, is to shed water.  Mortising the balusters into the bottom rail would create water traps and invite rot.

And by the way [OP here] some of you guys are making it awfully hard to justify buying a Kapex. Fortunately, I don't think my wife ever reads this stuff!

 

[peter halle]

Well then take RJNeals post as gospel and get a Kapex.  You could use the miter, bevel, and trenching aspects all at once once you built the positioning jig to handle the bottoms.  You could attach that jig to the Kapex with double side tape.  I might even pull out my Kapex today to look at this.

Happy holidays and happy purchases!

Peter

 

[ChuckM]

If you ask me, it's hard (very hard) to justify buying a Kapex given its cost for the prime reason of cutting those V-notches. Other much much cheaper miter saws can do those notches, too, with the proper jig.

But it's your plan to use the miter saw for all other future woodworking projects, right? Especially projects that call for precision results. That'd make the decision to get a Kapex a no-brainer, budget allowing.

I didn't know how or where the Bosch and DeWalt miter saws were deficient when using them until the Kapex was in my shop and got used in several projects. When I used the non-Kapex again on a couple of occasions (in other shops), I found myself struggling with the operation and the results

 

[tjbnwi]

As CRG mentioned. Easy peezy....

To get the coumpond angle you'll need to know the stair pitch, set up the baulsters accordingly.

The rails were also bevelled using a TS-55 and rail.

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Tom

 

[tk21769]

Nice!
So I'm thinking a good approach would be to cut the tops of the balusters at 35 degrees (my stair slope), then register those cut ends against a stop running parallel to the track saw's guide rail (as in the first picture above, but with the cut ends facing the camera). Then set the saw to a 30 degree bevel and cut; flip the balusters and cut again.  This should result in the correct compound miter for the V-notches.

 

[RJNeal]

That should work.
I rip out some balusters out of some 2x4 so I could use as sample pieces.  Worked like a charm
Rick

 

[smorgasbord]

Hope I don't get kicked off FOG for suggesting that a tablesaw with decent sled or even miter gauge is the way to go. If you have a tablesaw, that is.

 

[Crazyraceguy]

Hope I don't get kicked off FOG for suggesting that a tablesaw with decent sled or even miter gauge is the way to go. If you have a tablesaw, that is.

Certainly not. All techniques are fair game. Though Festool does make a table saw too  [big grin]