Vac fried again, will this be the last?

[Jaybolishes]

Hi guys, been years since I’ve been on here.  My Ct 36 AC had the electronic module fail 2 years into the warranty.  I was using an anti static hose and a festool sander when it abruptly turned of.  Sent it in, got it back and the module was the failure.  I bought a smaller vac and used it almost exclusively, so the ct36 ac stayed at home and rarely saw use.  I’d say it had less than an hour run time and it abruptly shut of again.  I was vacuuming the house of dust bunnies in fact, nothing crazy.  I knew what it was, the electronic module again.  I waited over 3 or 4 years and this vac has sat under my Paulk workbench  and I was reluctant to send it in, but I finally did and it was fixed for only about $250 with shipping and what a fast turn around, incredible repair service.  I do wonder, why in the world did it fry the module twice? It’s always grounded to proper plug and I always use an anti static hose which know only minimizes shock.  The electronic module is dipped in an anti static resin I believe, so how is it failing? I wonder if anyone else has had this happen.  My smaller vac has 10 times the run time, no issue. 

 

[usernumber1]

check your mains power for spikes and overvoltage or drops

 

[luvmytoolz]

check your mains power for spikes and overvoltage or drops

This by far is the biggest issue for control modules! Hooking your gear up to a surge protector can really be of benefit.

My CNC machine and control PC are running off a UPS for this reason as we get surges and drops quite often.

 

[usernumber1]

could also have some dirty power from generator or motor or some other devices in the facility
https://chintglobal.com/blog/dirty-power/

 

[Jaybolishes]

Happened at my house and the second time at my fathers house using properly wired outlets.  I can use a surge protector I guess. It’s  funny I’ve never had a tool do this ever before, and this one twice at two different locations properly wired. I feel like the problem lies in static from the hose causing a lethal zap to the electronic module.  In which case, what then? There is definitely something unique about this vacs design that allows the board to get fried.  Its wrapped in apoxy which would seem to protect it, but I don’t know.  Oh well it’s working now. If I gotta spend $160 every few years to replace the module,  that’s alright I use it to earn money and I like how my Oneida dust deputy fits on it.  Crossing fingers

 

[smorgasbord]

Note that there are many kinds of surge protectors, but also that surge protectors themselves don't clean up the power, they simply fail instead of your devices failing. There are many explanations on the interwebs, here's one:https://electronics.howstuffworks.com/gadgets/home/surge-protector1.htm

In short, if your surge protector is still protecting, it hasn't yet done anything for you.

 

[Packard]

Many years ago, I was using a very expensive studio flash on an outlet that had a dimmer switch.  I inadvertently left the switch on an intermediate setting and that fried the flash unit.  (This goes back to 1982 or so.)

The repair cost over $500.00 back then ($1,580.16 in 2022 dollars).

I had no idea that a dimmer would fry electronics.

Are you certain that line you are plugged into is at full line voltage?

 

[mino]

Replacing the board on CT26/36/48 is a reasonably easy task, so there is no need to send the vac to Festool when you know it is the problem. You can just order the board as a spare and any competent electrical tools repair shop should be able to replace it.

Had this happen too - in warranty - and I am positive it was not from a "voltage spike" nor a surge. We have a pile of sensitive kit on the same line and would notice the fireworks. Last year PEN got "dropped" on entry into the building and we got a "floating" N (zero). Was easily observed as the smoke escaped from like 10 power supplies all over the place.

I suspect there may be a certain combination of situations where static electricity (which can be a couple thousand volts easily) can "discharge" through the control board in some funky way and it manages to fry the board. At least that is my theory, bar a faulty board.

Last point, you might have as well got unlucky and your control board "aged". Certain electric components tend to fail over time whether in use or not. Especially capacitors tend to do this. Festool uses high-quality ones, but nothing has a 0% failure rate in this world.

This by far is the biggest issue for control modules! Hooking your gear up to a surge protector can really be of benefit.

My CNC machine and control PC are running off a UPS for this reason as we get surges and drops quite often.

Sorry to play smart, but this is misleading. I guess you are not familiar with what a "surge protector" actually does.

A "surge protector" does not help with general voltage spikes. It helps protect from power (voltage) surges. Power (voltage) surge is a sudden voltage "spike" which goes to several times the rated voltage (think 1000V+ on a 120V opened connection) and which happens extremenly fast, mostly it is from lightning. What a surge protector detects is the speed of the voltage change which immediately translates to a current surge. If you get a power spike from 120V to, say, 150V, a surge protector will not mind it. At all.

To protect from general power spikes, the common recourse is a higher end "online/full-conversion" UPS and some better "line-interactive" ones can handle it too. There are also special overvoltage disconnecting devices - those are a very rare thing most sparkies never see.

So, your setup with UPS is a go. Surge protector is not. Not for protecting from general power spikes.

 

[Packard]

Many, many years ago, I had a customer that made point of purchase racks (like you see at the checkout line at the supermarket) from steel wire. 

He was moving into a much larger building, but unfortunately the line voltage to the building was inadequate.  ConEd (the electric company) wanted tens of thousands of dollars (I don’t recall the number but I am certain that it was in excess of $50,000 dollars) to bring in a new trunk line to handle the voltage.

So, instead of telling ConEd that they were going to be using resistance welding equipment (spot welders), they told them that they were going to open a heat treating and plating shop.

That type of business uses huge amounts of electricity and ConEd gladly installed the trunk line for free. 

The funny thing about spot welding.  The very quick spike in amps occurs so quickly and ends so quickly that the electric metering equipment of that era could not read it at all.  So, basically the welding operations were free.  Only the lighting for the building (a relatively small amount) was required. 

It does not surprise me that a surge suppressor could not respond quickly enough to protect against short spikes.  That’s the reason that the meters could not read the electricity used in the welding process.

 

[newellj]

I realize that this thread is a year old, but want to follow up on this.

It cannot be true that a DE that's intended for job site use needs to be hooked up through a UPS, right?  Job site use and UPS are simply not concepts that go together, and if they were Festool should be putting a prominent warning on the DEs.

My CT 36E suddenly failed yesterday.  I've got a couple of months left on the warranty (good) but shipping and packaging are going to cost well into three digits, which is a significant percentage of replacement cost.  If it is really true that you can't use a Festool dust extractor without a UPS, I will skip the warranty repair and replace it with a DE from another manufacturer.

 

[six-point socket II]

No, Festool dust extractors do not need to be hooked up through a UPS.

However, if you "constantly" fry circuit boards/ electronics - then that should be checked out by the utility or qualified electrician.

Overvoltage can happen for various reasons.

If this is the first time, there are even more possibilities, besides actual overvoltage having anything to do with the sudden fail of your Festool dust extractor.

But again, definitely no UPS needed to run a Festool dust extractor.

Kind regards,
Oliver

 

[newellj]

No, Festool dust extractors do not need to be hooked up through a UPS.

However, if you "constantly" fry circuit boards/ electronics - then that should be checked out by the utility or qualified electrician.

Overvoltage can happen for various reasons.

If this is the first time, there are even more possibilities, besides actual overvoltage having anything to do with the sudden fail of your Festool dust extractor.

But again, definitely no UPS needed to run a Festool dust extractor.

Kind regards,
Oliver

Thanks - this is the first time I've had a problem with any Festool product.  Actually, I own some yellow and red tools and have never had one of those fail, either (fingers crossed).  A UPS that will handle a larger CT and some of the tools you'd typically expect to connect to it would be very heavy, very large and very expensive.  [sad]

 

[Packard]

Check your line voltage. 

My dentist has a serious and sensitive line voltage reader.  His X-ray equipment can be damaged with low voltage, so he monitors it regularly. 

The electric company is supposed to notify customers if they are cutting voltage by more that 5% (NY).  He said that they routinely cut 5% to 10% without any notifications and will send out notifications once it reaches 15%.

They apparently believe most people have low sensitivity readers or no readers at all.  And that the first 10% will go unnoticed, and (generally) will not cause damage. 

Notifying customers each time they dropped line voltage would put them under scrutiny.

If you are regularly burning out electronics, then I would examine the quality of the electricity delivery.

P.S.:  I have no idea how to go about measuring line voltage with great accuracy.  Sorry. 

 

[mino]

Thanks - this is the first time I've had a problem with any Festool product.  Actually, I own some yellow and red tools and have never had one of those fail, either (fingers crossed).  A UPS that will handle a larger CT and some of the tools you'd typically expect to connect to it would be very heavy, very large and very expensive.  [sad]

You mean, like, SYS3 187 big ?

[smile]

/joke aside, Packard summed it up nicely.

 

[Cheese]

P.S.:  I have no idea how to go about measuring line voltage with great accuracy.  Sorry.

Some of the higher end digital multimeters allow allow the meter auto-off feature to be turned off. In that case, set the voltage range to Min-Max and if there are voltage fluctuations it will automatically update the Min-Max display.

There is an ANSI standard of ±5% voltage fluctuation which the NEC folks also embrace. For 120V that's 114V to 126V.

Also, it depends where you measure the voltage, is it close to the main panel or out in the garage that's 75 feet away from the panel?

 

[Packard]

I assume my dentist has some device like you described. I’m pretty sure he did not examine a meter before each X-ray he took.

He bragged about the new X-Ray machine, which was digital and emitted far less radiation than the film based equipment he used to use.  But it was very expensive and he was protective about it.

He knew for an absolute fact that Con-Ed was not reporting all low voltage events (which occurred on the hottest days only).

 

[Vondawg]

Camera references …..long winded responses ….massive eye rolls… over and over and over…..sorry

 

[newellj]

Thanks - this is the first time I've had a problem with any Festool product.  Actually, I own some yellow and red tools and have never had one of those fail, either (fingers crossed).  A UPS that will handle a larger CT and some of the tools you'd typically expect to connect to it would be very heavy, very large and very expensive.  [sad]

You mean, like, SYS3 187 big ?

[smile]

Perhaps, but I have never had any electronic device suffer any damage that affected its performance to any noticeable degree.  I suppose lightning can strike (metaphorically!!!  [big grin]) any time, but I think that's very unlikely.  Occam's razor is point its finger at the CT 36. 

/joke aside, Packard summed it up nicely.

 

[Coen]

Is it 110V-land only with the fried boards?

Check your line voltage. 

My dentist has a serious and sensitive line voltage reader.  His X-ray equipment can be damaged with low voltage, so he monitors it regularly. 

The electric company is supposed to notify customers if they are cutting voltage by more that 5% (NY).  He said that they routinely cut 5% to 10% without any notifications and will send out notifications once it reaches 15%.

They apparently believe most people have low sensitivity readers or no readers at all.  And that the first 10% will go unnoticed, and (generally) will not cause damage. 

Notifying customers each time they dropped line voltage would put them under scrutiny.

If you are regularly burning out electronics, then I would examine the quality of the electricity delivery.

P.S.:  I have no idea how to go about measuring line voltage with great accuracy.  Sorry.

What kind of weird equipment is that...? If it gets damaged by undervoltage... it should come with undervoltage release. Even in 10 kV grids those are used by certain grid companies.

 

[Packard]

Is it 110V-land only with the fried boards?

Check your line voltage. 

My dentist has a serious and sensitive line voltage reader.  His X-ray equipment can be damaged with low voltage, so he monitors it regularly. 

The electric company is supposed to notify customers if they are cutting voltage by more that 5% (NY).  He said that they routinely cut 5% to 10% without any notifications and will send out notifications once it reaches 15%.

They apparently believe most people have low sensitivity readers or no readers at all.  And that the first 10% will go unnoticed, and (generally) will not cause damage. 

Notifying customers each time they dropped line voltage would put them under scrutiny.

If you are regularly burning out electronics, then I would examine the quality of the electricity delivery.

P.S.:  I have no idea how to go about measuring line voltage with great accuracy.  Sorry.

What kind of weird equipment is that...? If it gets damaged by undervoltage... it should come with undervoltage release. Even in 10 kV grids those are used by certain grid companies.

Maybe it did include an under voltage release.  Perhaps that was the device he was referring to.  He did not specify.  He only said that ConEd would drop more than 10% before notifying that there was a 5% drop.

In any case, if repeated failures happen at one location and not in others, I would look for something unique at that location.