Value of TDK12 Set

[Jesus Aleman]

Hi,

I'm in the market for a drill.  I already have an 18V impact driver (that I love) and a circa 1970s single speed corded drill that my wife won't let me dispose off.  I have looked at the new drills (T15+3), but the price point may be difficult to justify even when looking at this on the long run (this is a hobby).  The TDK12 set is being discontinued and currently being sold for $300 and change with the eccentric and right angle chucks.  For $300 I do see value on the features and the chucks.  However, I have read a few threads in the FOG that may indicated that the TDK12 is underpowered and the nickel batteries don't last long or hold the charge well.  I can give you two reference points on my type of use:

1) I use the drill/drivers primarily on the weekend.  My 18V impact driver batteries have sat in the garage for the entire Canadian winter and they are still holding a significant charge in the spring when I pick them up again. (I don't keep them in the garage anymore).  Can I expect the same thing from the TDK12 batteries, or at the very least that there will be some juice left when I pick them up on the weekend after sitting idle for the week.?

2) Does the drill have enough power for locations where I cannot use the drill press?  Most holes that I drill are under 20 mm (a notch above 3/4").  Depth is variable:
1-3.5" deep in hard, softwoods, man made materials, and construction lumber (4x4').
1/4" deep in aluminum
.. and sometimes small diameter holes (1/4"-1/2") in concrete blocks

I would use the TDK12 primarily for most hand held drilling operations, and for driving where the impact driver can't reach (eccentric and 90s). Is this a good investment @ $300 or should I look elsewhere.  T15+3 ... very sexy, but hard to rationalize the price.  One more question,  I have a collection of 1/4" hex shank bits, would these work with the TDK12?

Thanks in advance for your feedback.

 

[AlexThePalex]

Jesus, if it's your hobby, get a decent 14,4 drill by Makita, Hitachi, Bosch or Panasonic with at least Ni-Mh batteries or Li-on. They will serve you much better for a decent price than any Festool will. The added cost of a Festool only turns in your favour when you're a professional who uses the tools VERY much.

With the developments in battery land, I'd stay away from the old NiCd batteries since there is so much better now. I am just like you, Jesus, in the market for a new drill right now and I'm looking around to index all my options.

I have a 12v DeWalt drill and it served me well for 12 years, but the batteries are close to dead now. I've found it's power with 12v suitable for 85% of the jobs, but was disappointed for the other 15% when it simply wasn't strong enough, especially with drilling in stone and driving large diameter screws. When I bought the drill way back, I didn't know anything about cordless drills since that one was my first. But from all I've learned, I definitely want one that a bit stronger than the 12v models, so I'm looking at 14,4v.

I am also heavily interested in the T15+3 by Festool or it's superior brother the T15-4 by Protool, which are 14,4v. Unfortunately, these are a bit out of my reach too, even 2nd hand (New 600+ euro, 2nd hand 350-450 euro). I got my eye on a 14,4v Bosch Li model right now.

 

[jvsteenb]

Jesus,

That advice is spot-on. Don't bother buying a second hand NiCd tool, and even a NiMh tool would have to be a VERY good deal.
I have the T15+3, and absolutely adore it. But even using it professionally I had to chew on the pricetag quite a bit to make it digestable. It's quite hard to justify the last $300, if it doesn't make you money.
But there's lots of drills out there that combine decent price/performance with a reasonable price-tag.

If you can get a good deal on a TDK, I'd consider the price of the extra's and what they're worth to you, and set your pricepoint accordingly. The excentric chuck is great, and so is the 90 degree chuck. The Centrotec system is a boon in itself.
So you might be very happy buying into "the system" drill-wise, but just consider the actual drill as an extra if it's a NiCd model, or even a NiMh model. There's essentially NO value in a second hand NiCd model, and only limited value in a NiMh model, however well cared for.

I wish you the best of luck finding your specific jewel.

Regards,

Job

 

[WarnerConstCo.]

See now, I like the Nicad's.

I have not been to happy with any of the otther guy's Li-ion.  They stink in the cold weather.

I will admit, my C12 is a bit jealous of the 15+3, that thing is soooo light.

I have 10 year old Nicad Makita's (remember the stick battery's) that are still going strong.

It's all about the battery technology and the chargers.

 

[clev1066]

.......

I have 10 year old Nicad Makita's (remember the stick battery's) that are still going strong.

It's all about the battery technology and the chargers.

Good battery maintenance and proper charging cycles also help.

 

[greg mann]

I interpreted Jesus' post to mean he could buy a discontinued, but new, TDK. That would probably mean the batteries are just fine. I have a TDK that is at least five years old and the batteries are just as capable as those with my C12. The fact that they are NiCads doesn't really bother me either. I use my drills intensively at times and then rarely at times, especially the TDK because I have the C12. I have never had an issue with a weak battery that wasn't solved by just switching out and popping the first one on the charger. I am very undisciplined about keeping my batteries charged up, I never really keep track of how much I have used a battery so it is always possible that I have put a drill away with a battery 2/3s used up. A month later, if I pick up the drill and the battery seems weak I just swap out and get going. By the time I need another battery, which is almost never, then the first one is good to go.

I read a lot of fretting and hand wringing about battery life but it just isn't a problem for me, and my batteries are Festool's smallest NiCads. Also, for 12 volts, the TDK is pretty strong. Maybe I have just drank too much Kool Aid. 

 

[Jesse Cloud]

Jesus, if it's your hobby, get a decent 14,4 drill by Makita, Hitachi, Bosch or Panasonic with at least Ni-Mh batteries or Li-on. They will serve you much better for a decent price than any Festool will. The added cost of a Festool only turns in your favour when you're a professional who uses the tools VERY much. ....."

I see Alex's point and its certainly right for a lot of people.  But consider another view.  If you pursue your hobby because you enjoy using tools, then consider buying the tool you will enjoy the most.  A $300 drill that makes you happy every time you use it is a much better investment than a $100 tool that just does the job.
Most of us don't choose our hobbies with cost/benefit in mind.  Personally, I want the cool toys and will pay what I have to as long as there is some money left for glue and wood .

 

[tbellemare]

Maybe I have just drank too much Kool Aid

I don't think so, Greg...

The TDK 12 Set is quite valuable and the NiCd batteries are VERY good batteries. Not only is the drill quite powerful, but the batteries last a really long time on one charge. If you watch Tom Silva, he's using the TDK's brother, the C 12 (at least the last I saw). I use the C 12 primarily because I like the way it is configured. I think the TDK, C 12, and the new T +3 drills are all excellent.

The TDK 12 Set is more than a drill, it's a drilling system. Essentially, you get 3 drills in one. Being able to exchange the chucks, and you get 4 of them, is a hobbyist's best friend. I know there are professionals that will argue that they want dedicated drills for each task but there are some that are also very happy to have one drill that does all. Add the optional Depth Stop Chuck and you now have 3 drills and a screw gun.

Any of the Festool drills, the TDK, C 12, or T +3, are complete drilling/driving solutions in anything short of concrete.

Tom

 

[Jesus Aleman]

Thanks for the feedback so far.  Yes, I am looking at the new, but now discontinued TDK12 set.

Jesse, you are spot on.  Tool purchases are easier to rationalize for a professional or if your have a large DIY project(s) that will off-set the cost of the tools.  As a hobbyist it will likely be cheaper not to pursue woodworking if you only look at dollar and cents.  You are paying to engage (and enjoy) a hobby no different than traveling, skydiving, or playing a sport.  Thus, for me there is a trade-off on enjoyment and economics when making a purchase for woodworking.  Cost alone will never justify it.

JGA.

 

[greg mann]

Tom,

Everything you say about the TDK is true. If it weren't for the C12 and the new Txx+3s it would still be the best drill on the market.

On the issue of pro versus hobbyist: Some guys buy a couple Jet-skis or snowmobiles that cost more than a shop full of Festools (I buy kayaks. :) A hobbyist doesn't necessarily need to justify his purchases by rationalysing cost any differently than a pro. One could easily argue that the pro needs more cost justification than the hobbyist. I like using good tools; the best I can find. I find it pleasing. If I had to justify cost on the basis of price versus the number of times used or even the amount of time saved, I could not. But there is an aesthetic side to life that is important too. Do we enroll our kids in sports because we think they are going to become pros? (Well, maybe THAT'S a bad example. :) or dance classes? Does that make economic sense? Very often, we do things or buy things simply because we want to. Each man is crazy in his own way, including me.

 

[AlexThePalex]

Very often, we do things or buy things simply because we want to. Each man is crazy in his own way, including me.

: Ok, ok, I see where this is leading too.

Now, don't mind me saying, but I get the feeling this isn't a thread to ask for advise at all.

It's simply a notification of "Look, I'm going to buy me a Festool drill. I'm going to get a new toy".

Fine, don't ask for advise then. When somebody asks such a question I take it seriously, I'm trying to make people aware of all the pros and cons, and I'm not just going to preach to the choir and loudly repeat "FESTOOL! FESTOOL! FESTOOL!" all the time. Festool isn't the best choice all of the time, despite of what a lot of people here try to pass off as the truth.

Of course, if you're on the Kool Aid, as greg puts it, then no sound advice will help anyway. It's about having your toy, no matter what. Being part of the exclusive club. I get the feeling that in such a case, people only look at the STATUS SYMBOL function of having a really expensive TOY instead of really appreciating the tool all by itself and the work that can be done with it.

But consider another view.  If you pursue your hobby because you enjoy using tools, then consider buying the tool you will enjoy the most.  A $300 drill that makes you happy every time you use it is a much better investment than a $100 tool that just does the job.

I see we have a totally different approach to using tools here. I get the feeling here, that for some people using power tools is like playing with a model train in the basement. The tool is the goal itself, instead of using the tool for the goal for what it's really meant, namely CREATING things. I understand the fun people can have in using tools. I have a lot of fun in using them myself. However, that fun doesn't stop when there's no Festool on the tool. There's just as much fun to be had when it says DeWalt or Bosch or Metabo. Get my point?

It is funny Jesse, how you picture a Festool as a tool with extra fun as compared to a "tool that just does the job". Because, in fact, a Festool is also a tool that "just does the job". It doesn't have any extras like cooking you dinner and walking the dog. A TDK 12 will drill you a nice hole and drive you some nice screws into nice stuff. It will do it quite nicely. But that's it. In fact, there's a plethora of cheaper drills available that will do these jobs even better for you than the older TDK will.

Now I read here in this forum that a lot of people prefer and enjoy Festool because it's "The best of the best". And I agree with hem in a lot of cases. But since the criterium seems to be "The best of the best", what's to enjoy about a Festool like the TDK12 when it's NOT the best of the best?  My mind wanders around a bit and I simply have to conclude that its' about the status symbol factor. That it's really expensive stuff that's relatively rare so you get to be part of a somewhat exclusive user club.

Well, I'm sorry, but I don't think that's the proper approach to using tools.

Back to the original post Jesus made. I thought he asked about the VALUE of a TDK and specifically compared it to the cost of a T15. Then later on in the thread other people and Jesus himself say "it's not all about the cost/benefit", but in the original post Jesus indicated the price tag was of influence. So I took that to mean "is the TDK worth it's money". However, judging by another post I should rather have to interpret the use of the word value as something else, namely "am I cool enough if I buy a TDK instead of a T15"     

Well, then I can only say forget about my earlier advice, and forget about the TDK12 since it will never make you as cool as a T15 will.

I'm sorry that I sound a bit harsh in this post, but I'm sometimes getting a bit tired of people gloating over Festool like it's pure gold. That attitude is too materialistic for my taste. With a too materialistic approach you'll miss out of the more finer essences of life.

 

[clev1066]

Jesus, it really depends on what you mean by value. Escpecially considering the included chucks. If you will get use out of the off-set and right angle chucks, I think it is a heckuva value. If you won't get use out of those chucks, then I'm not so sure.

Put it like this: if you need those two chucks, they are almot $100 each. So you could consider that you're paying ~$115 for the drill, and ~$94 for each chuck. OTOH, my least expensive drill is my Bosch PS-30 which cost a little over $130; but it only has the adjustable chuck.

I think it is a pretty decent deal at the closeout price.

 

[Jesus Aleman]

Clev1066,  that was my initial rationale to become interested on this set. I need a new drill and I do have a specific need for both specialty chucks.  At the close out price this set seems a good value, if the battery performance and drill power are as advertised.  This last two issues have come into question by other FOG users.  However, I'm getting opinions at both ends of the spectrum.  Some love it, some hate it. I may sit tight for a bit longer.  Thanks for everyone's feedback.

JGA.

PS ... gloating about a discontinued tool, give me a break!

 

[greg mann]

Alex,

I think you are reading more into this than was meant. I don't polish my Festools and ride them in parades on Sunday afternoons or sit in a parking lot some evenings with the systainer open so everyone can go "Ooohhh!" and "Aaaahhh!"

I use them, they get dirty, even get sawdust on them.  There is virtually no one is around here to impress. And, while there is nothing wrong in appreciating a well made tool, I am not holding my breath waiting for Philip to come out with a line of custom putty knives.

I think the OP has got it figured pretty well. He would like the versatility of different chucks but doesn't think he needs a T15. If he can be reassured the NiCads are not a problem then the TDK represents a very good value for him. He isn't the only person that has come to this conclusion.

 

[WarnerConstCo.]

Alex,

I think you are reading more into this than was meant. I don't polish my Festools and ride them in parades on Sunday afternoons or sit in a parking lot some evenings with the systainer open so everyone can go "Ooohhh!" and "Aaaahhh!"

I use them, they get dirty, even get sawdust on them.  There is virtually no one is around here to impress. And, while there is nothing wrong in appreciating a well made tool, I am not holding my breath waiting for Philip to come out with a line of custom putty knives.

I think the OP has got it figured pretty well. He would like the versatility of different chucks but doesn't think he needs a T15. If he can be reassured the NiCads are not a problem then the TDK represents a very good value for him. He isn't the only person that has come to this conclusion.

Exactley,  the nicad's are great battery's.  And they are just tools.  Really nice, well desinged, well thought out, accurate, and rugged tools!! [smart]

 

[Frank Pellow]

I have the TDK12 and use it, but it is my only Festool tool that I would not recommend to someone else.

I find that it does not have nearly enough torque.  As a result, I never try to use it to drive screws (my cheap 18 volt Ryobi impact driver is used for that).   As long as I just use it for simple drilling tasks, it is nice.

Another problem I had was that both batteries ran out after about 3 years of light use.  I did get one of them rebuilt locally (at a cost of about $75). 

The offset and 90 degree chucks are a good feature -but they would be a lot better used with a more powerful drill.