Veritas flush cutting Chisels

[HarveyWildes]

I’ve had to replace a few too many plugs when the chisel tore a bit off one side. This flush cut saw from Lee Valley is what I use now.

I've had the same problem when trying to cut off a plug that sticks out over about 1/8", but I've had issues with marring work if I get too close with a flush cut saw - even the ones with no set on the teeth.  Generally what I do now is lay down a piece of card stock paper on the work and use the flush cut saw on top of that.  There is still a bit of the plug sticking up, but now I can use a (very sharp) chisel, or chisel plane if the location is right, to pare rather than chop.  I generally use a skew angle on the paring cut.  I've had good results with that.  I don't use a lot of traditional plugs, but I do use Miller Dowels for light structural work when I want to avoid screws, and for decoration.  I use the same technique for getting flush through tenons and such.

You can save a minute by using Post-It notes instead of card stock. Then you’re within sanding range.

Yep - That's good if I'm sanding at a coarse enough grit, which is a lot of the time.  I have managed to mar work using regular paper, but that's just me being careless.  So I switched to card stock to make it idiot-proof.  The Post-It note idea is great - holding paper in place under a flush-cut saw is a pain.

 

[rst]

I use rigid vinyl packaging material as it's thin and resists cutting through.  I keep a piece in my oscillating saw case also for protecting surfaces where I need the blade to be against another surface.

 

[ChuckM]

When the surface to be flushed is large, I prefer the apron plane from Lee Valley. If the surface isn't dead flat, the small apron plane will also work better than a larger block plane or a long bent chisel. If nothing works (for low spots), the card scraper is the tool that will come to your rescue.

 

[ear3]

Thanks as always for the info [member=4358]derekcohen[/member] -- of course you have a prototype set [big grin]

I like the addition of the longer handle -- sounds like a good lathe project.  Is that that Jarrah wood you've used elsewhere in your shop?

 

[derekcohen]

Yes, Jarrah.

That is a very plain piece. It can be much prettier. Here is a saw I made ...

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[ear3]

[thumbs up]

Yes, Jarrah.

That is a very plain piece. It can be much prettier. Here is a saw I made ...

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[ear3]

They helpfully include a screw and fender washer that makes it easy to hang the blades, so I guess I don't have need now for the roll that was included with the set, in case anyone wants it. 

 

[ChuckM]

I prefer your storage solution, as I don't like rolls. If I had this set, I'd get an extra hardware piece, and make a second handle so I could have two chisels to use at any time.

 

[thudchkr]

Ordered the set as well, but decided to get three extra handles so each chisel has their own handle.

I’d been considering get some paring chisels but these may work out well for the functions of the paring chisels.

 

[HarveyWildes]

They helpfully include a screw and fender washer that makes it easy to hang the blades, so I guess I don't have need now for the roll that was included with the set, in case anyone wants it.

[member=37411]ear3[/member], Nice storage!
Have you gotten the chance to try them out yet?  Did they meet your expectations in use?  Any unexpected pluses or minuses?

 

[ear3]

Haven't used them yet at all -- right now I'm building the interior casework for the Japanese tansu, and so haven't faced any issues that these chisels would solve.  But hopefully will get to use them soon.  I do still have to sharpen them though.

I was a bit surprised though that they weren't prepped in the way that LV blades usually come.  The edges aren't dull, but they are nowhere near as sharp as, say, the plane blades you get from LV, which usually only require a slight honing to create a keen edge.  I'm going to have to work these chisels on a stone first to get the right edge.

They helpfully include a screw and fender washer that makes it easy to hang the blades, so I guess I don't have need now for the roll that was included with the set, in case anyone wants it.

[member=37411]ear3[/member], Nice storage!
Have you gotten the chance to try them out yet?  Did they meet your expectations in use?  Any unexpected pluses or minuses?

 

[derekcohen]

I was a bit surprised though that they weren't prepped in the way that LV blades usually come.  The edges aren't dull, but they are nowhere near as sharp as, say, the plane blades you get from LV, which usually only require a slight honing to create a keen edge.  I'm going to have to work these chisels on a stone first to get the right edge.

I find comments like this rather strange. No chisel or plane blade comes from a manufacturer honed to a level that any serious woodworker would consider "sharp". You are expected to sharpen them ... and when they become dull, sharpen them again. [blink]

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[Michael Kellough]

There are various degrees of “ready to sharpen”.

A cutting tool that is delivered “nearly sharp” is surely more valuable (all else being the same) than one that requires even more work before it’s usable.

I find information about the condition of the delivered edge to be useful rather than strange.

 

[HarveyWildes]

There are various degrees of “ready to sharpen”.

A cutting tool that is delivered “nearly sharp” is surely more valuable (all else being the same) than one that requires even more work before it’s usable.

I find information about the condition of the delivered edge to be useful rather than strange.

Well said.  I wish that Lee Valley in particular would be more specific about exactly what is need to hone a blade from the factory to a keen edge.

Lie Nielsen is specific.  Their sharpening instructions brochure specifies starting to prep a factory chisel or plane blade with a 1000 grit stone on the back and the bevel, and finish up around 6000-8000 grit.  That tells me exactly what to expect.  For instance, if I could tell that the back was not flat at 1000 grit, I'd send it back - I've never had to do that with a Lie Nielsen plane blade or chisel.  And with the steel that Lie Nielsen uses, 1000 grit is not "slight", but at least I know what to expect.

I can't find similar info on the Lee Valley site.  However, when Lee Valley sends out a chisel or plane blade and says that the back just needs "at most a light polishing" before use, I'm not sure what that means.  Light polishing to me means 6000-8000 grit.  Any time I have to polish the back, that is more than just honing, so I tend to think that Lee valley is telling me that they have polished the back to 6000-8000 grit already, and all I need to do a little polishing if I want better than that, and a little honing of the edge on the bevel, perhaps to take out a burr or just spruce it up a bit before using it.  Veritas PMV-11 blades come with a dull look, but for that, they do look like they have been polished to better than 1000 grit to begin with.  I just can't shake the feeling that I'm being too optimistic, though, so I tend to treat a new PMV-11 blade like a new Lie Nielsen chisel and start at 1000 grit.  Is that overkill?  Am I making my life too hard with new PMV-11 tools by basically redoing the polishing that Lee Valley has already done?  I can't tell.

So given that bit of angst, the comments from [member=37411]ear3[/member] make sense to me.  It tells me that I might have to work a little harder on the flush cutting chisels to get them to the level of a PMV-11 bench chisel out of the box.  In my mind, Lee Valley could clear things up by just clearly stating what their expectations are for first use prep of their PMV-11 blades.  Do I start "slight honing before first use" at 1000, 4000, or 8000 grit (or whatever...).  Then we could just follow the instructions and judge whether they worked well on specific tools or not.

 

[Birdhunter]

If I were selling an expensive product like a plane or chisel, I’d send it to the customer as sharp as it could possibly be with the back optically flat. Yes, the buyer must resharpen, but it ought to come out of the box perfectly sharp. If the product cost 10 percent more, that’s fine. Just my opinion.

 

[ChuckM]

The flushing chisels, like other PM-V11 bench chisels, are dead flat at within 0.0005".

The Lee Valley PM-V11 plane blades arrived with a warning label about their sharpness. Seasoned users all have their own definition of what sharp is. I am happy with the final honing with 8,000x (water stone) to 10,000x (diamond lapping film). Blades do not come sharp out of the box like that, but the work required to take a new PM-V11 to that level of sharpness can take very little time, depending on the userès skill and equipmentéset-up.

 

[HarveyWildes]

The flushing chisels, like other PM-V11 bench chisels, are dead flat at within 0.0005".
...

Yep - I've never had a problem with either Lie Nielsen or Lee Valley when it comes to flatness.

I did a little math.  0.0005" is about 12.8 microns, which is about what a 1200 grit waterstone provides.  That means that the roughest possible polish on the back of a factory PMV-11 blade or chisel is what I could get from a 1200 grit waterstone.  It could be much better than that since I assume that the polish must be at least as good as the flatness spec.  It would be nice to know.

Polishing a chisel back takes a long time, and it doesn't do much good to hone the edge to 8000 grit if the back hasn't also been polished to 8000 grit.  If the Veritas chisel backs are polished to 1200 grit at the factory, I want to take the time and effort to polish the backs before using them.  On the other hand, if they are already polished to 8000 grit, then I shouldn't have to do anything except a light hone on the edge.  This is not just a theoretical exercise - I have a set of the Lee Valley bench chisels and I've only done the prep work on the ones that I've needed to use because I don't know where to start.  The ones that I have prepped, I've started at around 1000, so it sounds like at least I can skip that and go right to something reasonable between 1200 and 8000 - maybe 4000.  And if Lee Valley said, nope, they are already polished to 4000 or 8000, I'd be even happier.

I suppose that the effort to polish the backs really only applies to chisels if you are comfortable using the ruler trick with plane blades.  Since I just learned about the ruler trick a few months ago (on this forum - thanks folks ), I don't have much experience with it.  I've already polished the backs of the plane blades that I use frequently.

Interestingly, Lie Nielsen says to start with a 1000 grit waterstone for their chisels and blades, so Lee Valley may have something of an advantage here if they are truly already polished to 1200 grit.

Does anyone know what some of the other higher end chisel manufacturers recommend - Blue Spruce, for example.  I've use Record (now Irwin), Stanley Sweetheart, and Sorby chisels (both rosewood and octagonal boxwood handles), and I would have to say that they are all second tier compared to Lee Valley or Lie Nielsen for flat (and in general).  They were all a pain to flatten.

 

[ChuckM]

Extracted from the product instructions:

As noted above, the faces of the bench chisels are factory lapped to be flat within 0.0005". As such, no lapping is required by the user. At most, a fine polishing is all that should be done to this surface. Note that the flatness of these chisels is well within the tolerance of most commercially available straightedges.

Breaking the Side Edges

The  lapped  face  of  the  chisel  blade  is  perfectly  smooth  and,  as  a  result,  the side edges of the chisel blade will be fairly sharp.
http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=69847&cat=1,41504

I have flattened the backs of the Narex chisels after I bought them. I have however done nothing to the back of over a dozen of A2 or PM-V11 plane blades or chisels from Lee Valley. They are honed only on the bevels (back bevel blades not counted), and they are very sharp for all woodworking intents and purposes. I have tried the ruler trick on blades, but in general, I do not use it.

Image shows a high angle blade from LV (sharpened freehand with diamond lapping films, micro-bevel but no ruler trick) being used with a tight mouth on a mixed grain top. Its back has been as is from the factory.

 

[Rob Lee]

Hi -

Our lapping process conditions surfaces to a flatness far higher than we quote (an order of magnitude). However, we hedge as there can be some amount of springback as the blades are lapped with pressure applied.

For all intents and purposes - they are stupidly flat for woodworking.....you can only make them worse by working on them.

If you are going to polish the back (and you should) - I would start with a 4000X or more- they will require very little time to polish.

The back of our blades have a flat gray appearance. This is a result of a random scratch pattern that disperses (scatters?) light at high angles of incidence (like when you're looking at it!). If you sight down the blade at a lower angle (say 10-15 degrees) - it will have a mirror surface. Polishing will dull the scratch pattern - and you will have a "mirror" finish at higher angles of incidence.

Cheers -

Rob

 

[derekcohen]

Rob, you beat me to it. I shall still post this photo from my Veritas O1 chisel review ...

On the left is an untouched chisel back. The other two received under 30" lapping on a Shapton 12000 - which only polishes steel - and they turned into mirrors.

This is the case with ALL the Veritas blades that have passed through my hands.

And here is another reason why one needs to hone new chisels: the backs and the faces should both be honed and polished to the same grit, and other makes are very unlikely to be better than the 4000 grit at which Veritas arrive. 

Regards from Perth

Derek