Veritas flush cutting Chisels

[HarveyWildes]

Hi -

Our lapping process conditions surfaces to a flatness far higher than we quote (an order of magnitude). However, we hedge as there can be some amount of springback as the blades are lapped with pressure applied.

For all intents and purposes - they are stupidly flat for woodworking.....you can only make them worse by working on them.

If you are going to polish the back (and you should) - I would start with a 4000X or more- they will require very little time to polish.

The back of our blades have a flat gray appearance. This is a result of a random scratch pattern that disperses (scatters?) light at high angles of incidence (like when you're looking at it!). If you sight down the blade at a lower angle (say 10-15 degrees) - it will have a mirror surface. Polishing will dull the scratch pattern - and you will a "mirror" finish at higher angles of incidence.

Cheers -

Rob

Thanks [member=4165]Rob Lee[/member] - Just the info I wanted.  I just hope I haven't screwed up my existing chisels by starting at a grit that is too coarse.  Thanks also to [member=4358]derekcohen[/member] for verifying from your experience.

 

[Rob Lee]

And.....

Another good reason to have a mirror finish is that a reflective surface helps align a chisel visually (you can tell when a mirror is perpendicular to a surface, or edge).

Cheers -

Rob

 

[Rob Lee]

Hi -

Our lapping process conditions surfaces to a flatness far higher than we quote (an order of magnitude). However, we hedge as there can be some amount of springback as the blades are lapped with pressure applied.

For all intents and purposes - they are stupidly flat for woodworking.....you can only make them worse by working on them.

If you are going to polish the back (and you should) - I would start with a 4000X or more- they will require very little time to polish.

The back of our blades have a flat gray appearance. This is a result of a random scratch pattern that disperses (scatters?) light at high angles of incidence (like when you're looking at it!). If you sight down the blade at a lower angle (say 10-15 degrees) - it will have a mirror surface. Polishing will dull the scratch pattern - and you will a "mirror" finish at higher angles of incidence.

Cheers -

Rob

Thanks [member=4165]Rob Lee[/member] - Just the info I wanted.  I just hope I haven't screwed up my existing chisels by starting at a grit that is too coarse.  Thanks also to [member=4358]derekcohen[/member] for verifying from your experience.

Hi -

No worries on you existing chisels....I said you "can only" make them worse.... not that "you will" make then worse !  [big grin]

If you feel you've messed 'em up - give me a shout at rlee@leevalley.com , and we'll get then put right....

Cheers -

Rob

 

[ear3]

Out of the box sharpness should be a minimal factor in deciding whether to invest in a tool that the user must regularly resharpen and maintain, and while i wouldn't otherwise follow up what was just meant as an offhand observation, there's still a question hanging out there,  so I'll simply post a pic of one of the chisels blades out of the box:

[attachimg=1]

Like I said, the plane blades I have previously gotten from LV have always been cleanly sharpened and ready to use with just a quick hone. These uncharacteristically needed a bit more work.  Not a big deal.

 

[HarveyWildes]

Just got mine today - I'll give a report after I've had the chance to sharpen them.

 

[HarveyWildes]

I sharpened my new flushing chisels today.

I used new, out-of-the-box Shapton stones which I assumed were flat enough to match the chisels.  I started with 4000 grit, moved to 8000 grit, and then tried 16000 on the 1/2" chisel.  I took 1-2 minutes for each of the 4000 and 8000 grit stones per chisel (more for the 1 1/2" - see below), and under a minute with the 16000 grit stone  Prepping all four chisels took about 25-30 minutes with cleanup.  I then honed each chisel using the highest grit that I used when polishing the back.  With the exception of the extra time on the 1 1/2" chisel, it was a very streamlined process compared to other chisels that I've had to prep.

The 1/2", 3/4", and 1" chisels were dead flat.  The 1 1/2" chisel was close, with a slight low spot on the back along one side of the edge.  In the picture you can see it as a dull gray triangle on the left hand side of the edge.  I couldn't see any light under a straight edge, so it is still flat enough for things that require flat, but I would like to have polished the back along the whole edge for sharpness after honing.  I don't have an immediate need for the 1 1/2" chisel, so I'll bring this to the attention of Lee Valley and see what they recommend.  The other chisels ended up looking like the pictures that [member=4358]derekcohen[/member] posted, at least on the last 1-2 inches that I polished.  Looks like I don't need to start with a 1000 grit stone for Lee Valley .

I tested the chisels on (1) birch dowels sticking up from a planed board, and (2) elm end grain.  None of the pieces were longer than the chisel blades, so I could have made the test cuts with regular bench chisels.  I used a somewhat skewed cutting action, which meant that I wasn't pushing directly forward on the handle.  Instead, I tended to hold the handle on the bolster, with my other hand pushing down on the blade.  (In other words, I haven't really given the chisel handle design a good test yet.)  With that approach, I didn't have any trouble with the handle coming loose.

The test cuts all looked great.  I noticed a slight difference between the 1/2" chisel which I polished and honed to 16000 grit, and the others.

 

[derekcohen]

I used new, out-of-the-box Shapton stones which I assumed were flat enough to match the chisels.

Harvey, about Shaptons (and other waterstones) ...

I would never assume that a waterstone is flat just because it is new. There is no tool I know of, especially consumables like waterstones, that should be assumed to be “right” from the outset. Everything needs some work.

Shaptons tend to move a little. I ended up glueing mine to glass to keep them flat, but would still flatten them (especially the 1000) before use.

The reason you needed three grits to work the backs of these blades is more likely to be that your stones were not as flat as the chisels! They only need to be polished, not flattened. You are more likely to undo the work by Veritas by using something coarser than 8000 grit.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[HarveyWildes]

I used new, out-of-the-box Shapton stones which I assumed were flat enough to match the chisels.

Harvey, about Shaptons (and other waterstones) ...

I would never assume that a waterstone is flat just because it is new. There is no tool I know of, especially consumables like waterstones, that should be assumed to be “right” from the outset. Everything needs some work.

Shaptons tend to move a little. I ended up glueing mine to glass to keep them flat, but would still flatten them (especially the 1000) before use.

The reason you needed three grits to work the backs of these blades is more likely to be that your stones were not as flat as the chisels! They only need to be polished, not flattened. You are more likely to undo the work by Veritas by using something coarser than 8000 grit.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Point well taken - never assume...  I have a Shapton lapping plate and should have used it.

I was using Shapton Glass stones, but I love the idea of gluing a regular stone to a glass base.  Do you have to prep the glass at all, for example by etching it?  What kind of glue works for that?

I started at 8000 with the 3/4" chisel, and wasn't satisfied with the results, so I dropped back to 4000 based on Rob Lee's advice above.  Compared to any previous experience I've had with chisel backs, including Lie Nielsen, I was very pleased with the results.  Even starting at 4000, it was way easier than previous experiences.

WRT the 1 1/2" chisel,  my thinking, based on the results with the other chisels (basically perfect) and the way part of the edge didn't polish as expected, that the stones are not at fault.  I could flatten it out using 1000 or 2000 grit, but since it seems to be out of the Veritas metric for flat, I'll see what they recommend first.

 

[derekcohen]

Hi Harvey

I am sure that you did no harm ... just that it should not have been necessary to go below 8000.

The Shaptons I was referring to are the Pro version. I had the local glass merchant size and cut up a few glass rectangles, each about 1/4" thick. I used epoxy. No etching required. Make sure that you secure the combination with tape as the epoxy is slippery at the start, and parts may move  ... and then you are literally stuck with the result! DAMHIK.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[HarveyWildes]

So I've just given the chisels a bit of a workout.  I used them to trim up some box joints.  The pins extended past the corner of the box between 1/64" and 1/32".

The bottom line is that these chisels enabled me to trim the joints fast and with virtually no tear out.  They were much more flexible than a chisel plane in terms of angling into the cuts, and the ability to lay the chisel flat along the length of the box made it better than a regular chisel for the job.  It gave me much finer control than trying to sand.

One thing that surprised me was the fact that it was very useful to have multiple sizes of chisel.  A narrower chisel allowed me to attack one pin at a time, and work to within about 1/8" of the corner from the box side, while a wider chisel allowed me to work the rest of the cut from the side and still have a solid reference on the side of the box.

So overall, I'm not disappointed that I bought them, and would do it again.

Minor issues:
1.  The 1 1/2" chisel was not within the published spec for flat (enough off that flattening with a 4000 grit stone was not practical), but it was close.  I notified Lee Valley, thinking that they might want me to return it for QA, and they just said that they would send me a replacement if I wanted one, and didn't request that I mail the old one back.  Since they didn't seem too concerned about the QA aspect, I'm going to try to flatten in on a 1000 grit stone and if that works, I'll just keep it.  Otherwise I'll request the replacement.
2.  On the 3/4" chisel, the screws that attach the chisel blade to the bolster came loose.  I've tried to put them back with blue thread lock, so we'll see how that works.  If they come loose again, I'll try red thread lock, and if that fails, I'll notify Lee Valley on that as well.