Voltage Question for USA owners?

[Forrest Anderson]

Well David I am shocked to inform you that in the UK the sticker on the outlet states MAX500W on a 110v CTL Mini, though there is no mention of that in the online catalogue, so one can not even plug a TS55 into it for the auto switch on facility!!!!
Of course I only found that out after getting the unit home. Looks like I am back to the old wet&dry tin can vac!
I have sent an E-mail to Festool UK and copied it to my dealer with whom I have dealt with for over 12 years so one hopes that a happy ending will result...

Just having a hard time how something can be sold that is obviously not fit for purpose in the UK.
confused and upset.... that'll be me.

Alex is quite right when he says the power issue has been disussed before. You might be interested reading the thread entitled Midi vac where a UK FOG member had purchased the larger MIDI, again at 110V, and found the same 500W sticker. My reply, dated 3 Jul 2007, highlights the mis-match between the 500W max power capacity on the sticker, the same limitation in the instruction manual, and a 2400W capacity on the website.

Forrest

 

[Rob-GB]

in the uk we have a stupid regulation that tools on site have to be 110v

Rob, I believe that is wrong - there is AFAIK no official regulation ANYWHERE that states 230V can't be used on site. 110V was promoted years ago as being safer, but thanks to technology 230V with an RCD is far, far safer than 110V without any protection. If the site manager/foreman won't let you use 230V tools, ask him to provide paperwork from the government or regulatory body stating that rule - he won't be able to.

It annoys me that companies/managers enforce this 'non-rule' just because they don't know the facts. Contractors usually can't even argue against it, because if they do then in many cases they will be let go, or just won't get the work in the first place

Until someone is brave/stupid enough to stand up to them, get fired from the job, and then sue them for wrongful termination, this situation will continue. And, as you've discovered, the current draw on the 110V tools is excessive! The rest of Europe use 230V on site, so why can't we?  [mad]

My opinion exactly, but having been kicked off a site once, several years ago, I have lost the will to argue with dunces, such is life here. You know and I know, as do many others, but their fear of being sued means we get a raw deal time and time again. Of course the silly HSE mob who have never used tools/machines don't help [sad]

 

[AlexThePalex]

Just wondering, those 110v tools you have to use, do they have the same power as 220v tools?

 

[Rob-GB]

Well David I am shocked to inform you that in the UK the sticker on the outlet states MAX500W on a 110v CTL Mini, though there is no mention of that in the online catalogue, so one can not even plug a TS55 into it for the auto switch on facility!!!!
Of course I only found that out after getting the unit home. Looks like I am back to the old wet&dry tin can vac!
I have sent an E-mail to Festool UK and copied it to my dealer with whom I have dealt with for over 12 years so one hopes that a happy ending will result...

Just having a hard time how something can be sold that is obviously not fit for purpose in the UK.
confused and upset.... that'll be me.

Alex is quite right when he says the power issue has been disussed before. You might be interested reading the thread entitled Midi vac where a UK FOG member had purchased the larger MIDI, again at 110V, and found the same 500W sticker. My reply, dated 3 Jul 2007, highlights the mis-match between the 500W max power capacity on the sticker, the same limitation in the instruction manual, and a 2400W capacity on the website.

Forrest

That was in 2007, so the sticker is still being left on by those meticulous germans? I need confirmation I'm afraid. The tools cost more than the other market leaders and for that I require peace of mind, after all some of my kit has lasted, with very hard use, over ten years. Thanks for the link Forest, maybe I am being over cautious, but I need the facts. If I use the vac with my TS55 on Monday and it goes bang what recourse do I have? And if it won't play well with the TS55 I have wasted my hard earnt money. When you have been out of work for the best part of a year then decide to invest in better kit to enable faster and better working practices, you need to be able to trust the investment, they need to help me make a living. A despondent Rob in need of a beer [sad]

 

[Rob-GB]

Just wondering, those 110v tools you have to use, do they have the same power as 220v tools?

They do the same job in the same time frame, at least not noticably slower  [wink] The idea, as far as I understand it, was that 110v was less likely to kill you than 240v (as it was then). However , the powers that be did not and still do not understand that it is not the volts but the amps that kill!
This is said by someone who has experienced an electric shock from a loose wire in Crete, it knocked me out and made the hair go spikey, then again in rural France when stepping into a bath! Had to turn the bathroom light off and bathe in the dark, just as well I know where all my bits are!! ;D
I think Chris's post has an element of truth though!

 

[jonny round boy]

Just wondering, those 110v tools you have to use, do they have the same power as 220v tools?

Alex,

Yes, 110V site tools in the UK have the same power (usually, there are are exceptions) as their 230V counterparts. But because the voltage is reduced, the current is increased, which leads to other issues.

For example, the OF1400, nominally 1400 watts. At 230V under full load, that would draw just under 6.1 Amps, but a 110V version could draw up to 12.7 Amps.

 

[jonny round boy]

do not understand that it is not the volts but the amps that kill!

As my physics teacher used to say, "the voltage just makes you jump about - it's the current that kills you!".

 

[Rob-GB]

do not understand that it is not the volts but the amps that kill!

As my physics teacher used to say, "the voltage just makes you jump about - it's the current that kills you!".

Wish I had Physics class at school, we just had a nutty science teacher who delighted in explaining why the white plimsoll hurt less than the black one! [eek]

Your one is correct of course, a kernel of knowledge lost to our powers that want to be. [wink]

 

[SteveW]

Not quite a simple as 110v USA = 110v UK Sites.  To make it safer on sites before double insulated tools were introduced it was specified that sites would use 110v centre tapped to earth therefore each live lead is only at 55v with respect to earth where as in the US AFAIK its 110V with respect to earth.  Of course with double insulated and RCDs this requirement is no longer needed but why would anyone reduce the requirements and get blamed for an accident even if the voltage had no impact on the accident. When the EU decide to harmonise site regulations this requirement will go and then we can blame the EU when things go wrong

Steve

 

[jvsteenb]

Just to clarify your post though, is 380v the standard voltage on building sites in the Netherlands?

To elaborate:

There's 380V 3 phase and 220V single phase in the Netherlands. It's essentially the same, but since there's a 120 degree phase-difference between the phases, the phase-to-phase voltage is 380 - the live-to-neutral voltage is still the same old 220 V.
On a sidenote: it's 230 and 400V's now, 50 Hz ( or cycles, if you prefer ). To ease standardisation and across-border power delivery ( I never really got the last part, since that's all high voltage.... )  it's been gradually raised over a couple of years, and AFAIK the majority of mainland Europe is using this nowadays. If I recall correctly, there were some countries where it had to be lowered from 240.

99.5% of all paying connections over here are actually connected 3 phase to where they enter the building - but for residential use there's usually just one phase that gets routed to the metering device, the rest isn't used. residential connections are more-or-less balanced between the phases.

Virtually every commercial connection is 3 phase over here., and so are all temporary connections to construction sites.

I have a 3 phase connection myself that I use for some stationary stuff in my garage, but there's a price premium.

Regards,

Job

 

[Jerry Work]

Be careful with this one, guys.  The human body reacts badly to increases in voltage.  12v most cannot even feel, 120v will jolt everyone, 220v is harmful to most everyone and can kill those with weak hearts or other conditions, 440v will kill or seriously harm most everyone.  When you touch the two posts on a common 12v auto battery most will not feel it even though that battery is capable of delivering several hundred amps.  While you cannot feel the amperage, two pieces of metal touching those same two posts would weld themselves together because of the heat created from that much amperage.  You cannot be too safe when it comes to exposure to electricity.  Don't fool around with this stuff unless you really know what you are doing. 

In simple terms, electricity is the flow of electrons through a conductor interrupted by a device designed to use those electrons to do useful work for us.  The pressure with which the electrons are pushed through the conductor is "volts" and the number of electrons that can fit in the cross section of the conductor is "amps".  The total number of electrons available - "watts", the measure of the amount of work those electrons can do - is the product of volts times amps.  The motor on a hand or stationary power tool can do the same amount of work whether at 120v or 240v, but the 120v tool will require twice the amperage and hence a larger and more expensive cord to carry those amps.  The 120v tool is safer than the 240v tool if the operator ever is exposed to the voltage.

The circuit breaker protecting each outlet in your home or shop is sized to prevent too many amps from being carried through the wire leading from the breaker box to the outlet.  14 ga wire (commonly used to wire outlets in US homes) can safely carry up to 15 amps (whether at 120 or 240 volts).  The outlet will have two vertical slots and one round ground pin.  12 ga wire can carry up to 20 amps (again independent of whether the voltage is 120 or 240 or whatever).  A 20 amp outlet has two vertical slots one of which also has a horizontal slot plus the one round ground pin.  A 20m amp male has one vertical and one horizontal flat pin plus the one round ground pin and cannot fit into a 15 amp outlet.  A 15 amp male has two vertical flat pins plus the one round ground pin so it can fit in either a 15 amp or a 20 amp outlet.

The Festool vacs sold in the US use 12 ga wire terminated with a 15 amp male plug.  They also come with a 15 amp to 20 amp conversion short extension so you can plug them into either a 15 amp or a 20 amp outlet.  The electronics internally can handle the combined load of the wattage of the vac (which is a function of the speed setting and how full/saturated the bag is) plus the wattage of the tool plugged into the vac up to a total of 2400 watts (120 volts times 20 amps).  If it is plugged into a 15 amp outlet then the circuit breaker in the panel protecting the wire leading from the panel to that outlet would only allow the continuous flow of 1800 watts (120 volts times 15 amps) before it tripped.  Each Festool is rated by it's watt draw under continuous use rather than the somewhat useless "horsepower" rating.

Lesser tool manufacturers will often scream out some outrageous horsepower claim for their tools that couldn't possibly be realistic given that 746 watts is the definition of one horse power in electric terms.  Ever wonder how a big box store vac can claim 5 or 6 "peak" horsepower when it has a 14 ga wire with a 15 amp plug on the end?  The most continuous horsepower that motor could possibly put out before tripping the 15 amp breaker would be 2.4 (1800 watts divided by 746).  The outrageous and useless "peak" horsepower ratings are often made just at the point the motor burns itself up from drawing too many amps under a load.

Hope all this helps sort out the mystery surrounding amps, volts, watts, circuit breakers, wire sizes and horsepower claims for electric tools, but do be careful with electricity.  It can do lots of good things for us, but can also be dangerous if not well understood.

Jerry

do not understand that it is not the volts but the amps that kill!

As my physics teacher used to say, "the voltage just makes you jump about - it's the current that kills you!".

 

[Rob-GB]

Well we are getting an in depth discussion on volts,amps and watts [big grin] [big grin]
Thanks for your replies guys.
Joiner 1970 said in a linked post that he would post Festool UK's reply to his similar question, that never happened! So I will have to await their answer to my email and promise to post: A) Their reply. B) Their lack thereof!
I hope it is the former as I like the tools and hate to think I have made unwise choices.
Regards Rob.

 

[piercetroll]

Well, as a backwards sort of reversal.. I brought a lot of 240 volt tools back from Denmark to Canada, which of I use all of here. They are all rated highter in Europe than in Canada, and I was told that they a. would not function, and b.would cause a hazard due to the voltage frequency. Now after a lot of decision making, and deciding to just trust the best toolmaker in the world, I would use my skills, and read somethings about alternating current. Much to my surprise, learning that voltage frequency simply makes my tool speed rating slightly higher, they aremuch stronger than conventional 120volt tools. I have heard all manner of mistrust based on the gauge of cable size. That I might burn something, and or some other meaningless drivel that someone who has not researched the topic will spew out at random, just to have an opinion. I can now only guess that in the UK, that the 240v power is derived in the same manner as it is in Canada. Two 120v hot-lines coming to either side of the electrical panel. Separated for two independent 120v circuits. The 220 volt applications are simply 2 120 volt lines running in parallel. No neutral is necessary, however here in Canada, they provide 2. I neutral, and one earth, neither of which I am using here, as the tools are all double insulated from any possibility of electrocution.  The "plastic" non conducting handle pretty much assures that I will not receive damage from the tool, except when I am showering with it. "this may or may not happen!"  If concern remains over damaging the actual wiring in the work area.... try using a computer power strip with a built in circuit breaker.... likely it is rated to protect a computer from damage, should work in the reverse role to protect your tools as well.

  From the Festool site Directly states.

CtlMini
Power consumption  400-1200 W
Airflow max. 2800 l/min
Max. vacuum 20000 Pa
Filter surface area 5000 cm?
Rubber-insulated mains cable 7,5 m
Container/Filter bag capacity 10/7,5 l
Dimension ( Lx W x H) 440 x 340 x 420 mm
Max. appliance socket connected load 2400 W
Weight 9,5 kg

Ts55
Power consumption  1200 W
Idle engine speed 2000-5200 min-1
Saw blade diameter 160 mm
Inclination 0-45 ?
Cutting depth 0-55 mm
Cutting depth at 45 degrees 43 mm
Cutting depth at 45?/90? 0-43/0-55 mm
Connection ? d/e 27/36 mm
Weight 4,5 kg

So if my addition is rewarding by nature, 1200+1200=2400. maximum rating... means use the machines, should it explode, catch fire, spontaneously create asparagus soup, or suddenly open its fast fix and tell you how much it loves you... I think that Festool will stand behind their printed ratings. I hope no one is offended with my continuing sarcasm, but I trust these tools to pretty much make me dinner and change my socks, (next years innovations include hair cutting, and mustache trimming). Long live Festool!

 

[stevep]

I can now only guess that in the UK, that the 240v power is derived in the same manner as it is in Canada. Two 120v hot-lines coming to either side of the electrical panel.

Not so. A single phase supply in the UK consists of one 240v conductor(L), one neutral (N), and one earth (E). A double insulated portable tool will just use the L and N. As one of the other UK posters has pointed out, if we want 110v, we use a centre-tapped transformer, which is 55v from the L to the N, and another 55v from the N to the L (strictly speaking the N is actually the mid-point of the transformers secondary coil, and is really a 'Common' connector rather than a Neutral. However, even with 110v transformers, they have to be plugged into a 240v supply, so any increase in safety is fairly marginal.
Larger static machines use a 3 phase supply, which consists of 5 conductors, L1 L2 and L3, along with a Neutral and an Earth. The voltage between any one of the L conductors and earth is 240v, but the voltage between any two of the three L conductors is 415v. Many of the electricity supply cables in our streets (u/ground or overhead) are 3 phase 415v, and to supply a domestic house the electricity company just bring in one of the three L conductors along with a Neutral and an Earth, ie 240v.
As for the effects of electricity on the body, and whether it is voltage or current that does the damage, the answer is that you have to have both. In normal conditions, the resistance to earth (measured, say, from finger to finger of opposite hands) is very high, resulting in a very small flow of current if you come into contact with 240v (not normally fatal for a healthy adult, but certainly unpleasant). Increasing the voltage would, in a normal conductor, actually decrease the current. However, in a human, an increased voltage will result in some cell-wall breakdown, which means that resistance is lowered and a greater current flows. More than a few hundred milli-volts can cause fibrillation of the heart muscles, causing it to stop.
I agree with one of the earlier posters - 240v double-insulated power tools running on a supply protected with a residual current circuit breaker (RCD) is much much safer than messing about with transformers.

 

[Rob-GB]

Thanks for all the effort to help get to the bottom of this dilemma, guys. It has now been resolved.  [big grin]
The following is a reply from Festool UK, I have edited out email addresses for obvious reasons and hope this post will help others as it is apparently a common question!  [eek]

RE: CTLMini Wattage‏
From:  *****@tooltechnicsystems.com 
Sent: 24 November 2009 14:37:02
To:  *****.co.uk

Good Afternoon Robert,

It is 2400w for both 110v and 240v. The sticker that states 500w is something that is done in our head quarters! This could be for other countries but for GB this is incorrect!
It is very safe to use your 110v TS55 with this 110v extractor.
Hope this helps,
Thanks
Kind Regards,
C********

So It looks like I'm all set to go and suck sawdust ;D

 

[joiner1970]

Well David I am shocked to inform you that in the UK the sticker on the outlet states MAX500W on a 110v CTL Mini, though there is no mention of that in the online catalogue, so one can not even plug a TS55 into it for the auto switch on facility!!!!
Of course I only found that out after getting the unit home. Looks like I am back to the old wet&dry tin can vac!
I have sent an E-mail to Festool UK and copied it to my dealer with whom I have dealt with for over 12 years so one hopes that a happy ending will result.
I really wanted to get a homogeneous power tool system set up over the next 6 months or so, my existing power tools are a mix of makes and have more than paid for themselves over the years I have had them, though a complete system that looks as professional, to my clients, as they work would be worthy of the investment. Of course, while working in Germany the issue of volts/watts did not occur, the tools were supplied and the legislation was not so 'static'.
Just having a hard time how something can be sold that is obviously not fit for purpose in the UK.
confused and upset.... that'll be me.

Rob,

Firstly I cannot see what your problem is with using 110v. We have had it for years and it works so why change ? It would mean me selling all my 110v (thousands of pounds worth) of power tools and starting over which I just could not do.

Secondly if maybe you had used the SEARCH : button you might have found my post about the "500 watt max" sticker that I posted maybe 2 years ago now. I contacted Festool too back then and they said to ignore the sticker. Since then I have had much heavier tools running fine off my Midi vac.

 

[joiner1970]

Rob, here you go have a read of this

http://festoolownersgroup.com/index.php?topic=1121.0

Hopefully you can sleep at night now  [laughing] ps I have run things like my big Makita chopsaw off my Midi with no problems.

 

[joiner1970]

Joiner 1970 said in a linked post that he would post Festool UK's reply to his similar question, that never happened!

Just spotted this so you had seen my post but not read it right. I did post Festool's reply if you look carefully but as as it was a phone call to Festool I couldnt really post my phone call so it was written in my last post read it again it sounds like the same reply you had but mine was back in 2007.