I'm curious to know if there are any concerns warranty-wise using my new TS55REQ with my shop vac/Oneida dust sucker? Is there any kind of risk to the tools doing this with any Festool tools? I think of static mainly but curious if there are other issues I'm unaware of. This is Festool #1 for me with a Kapex likely added soon. Thanks for any feedback/guidance.
Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac
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ccarrolladams
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Contact Festool USA about the warranty issues using any kind of third party between a vac and the Festool. cyclones such as the Dust Deputy, can create huge amounts of static electricity which can destroy the circuit boards within the tool.
ccarrolladams
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Peter, the issue is using any third-party device between a Festool dust extractor and a Festool.
Excessive static electricity generated by the third-party device can and have destroyed circuit boards in the tool and in the Festool dust extractor.
Shane Holland has stated several times on FOG that in cases of static damage resulting from use of the third-party devices the usual warranty might be void.
That is why I wrote the post I wrote as a warning to Festool owners. Of course the policies of Festool UL could well be different. My post only applies to NA Festool owners.
Excessive static electricity generated by the third-party device can and have destroyed circuit boards in the tool and in the Festool dust extractor.
Shane Holland has stated several times on FOG that in cases of static damage resulting from use of the third-party devices the usual warranty might be void.
That is why I wrote the post I wrote as a warning to Festool owners. Of course the policies of Festool UL could well be different. My post only applies to NA Festool owners.
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Peter Parfitt said:
Yes, there were a couple of threads about it just a week or two ago.
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Per our warranty...
There have been numerous reports recently of damage to the circuit board of CTs due to static discharge presumably caused by the Ultimate Dust Deputy product.
There have been numerous reports recently of damage to the circuit board of CTs due to static discharge presumably caused by the Ultimate Dust Deputy product.
Paul, Oneida has a fix that includes metal tape that runs between the inlet to the outlet of the cyclone and down to the base. You are supposed to wrap it around the cyclone fittings and then install the hoses. You are also supposed to find a ground. I don't remember them telling you exactly how.
Anyway, in my eyes its a crappy fix and something worthy of Makita. LOL.
I formed copper sheet to the OD of the cyclone fittings and attached wire between them. I ran the wire down to the inlet where I have a connector and a wire that goes into the CT and connects to ground on the bus where the power cord connects. This gets me back to house ground.
I fired up the CT with the extra grounds before I had made the final ground connection and there was so much static on the new ground system you would not want to touch anything I added. As soon as I added the ground wire that brought all this back to house ground it settled down and worked great.
Here is my only comments... I really like having the cyclone on the CT. Works GREAT.
But the Festool motor controller is obviously pretty sensitive. My CT is probably 6 or 7 years old but only had about 2 hours use on it when I took the controller out. I would be afraid to take it out of my shop not knowing what the ground conditions are elsewhere. It really needs a good earth ground.
Right now I have the motor plugged directly to the bus so I have to plug/unplug the CT to make it work. My new controller should be here next week. Hoping I don't have any issues in the future.
Anyway, in my eyes its a crappy fix and something worthy of Makita. LOL.
I formed copper sheet to the OD of the cyclone fittings and attached wire between them. I ran the wire down to the inlet where I have a connector and a wire that goes into the CT and connects to ground on the bus where the power cord connects. This gets me back to house ground.
I fired up the CT with the extra grounds before I had made the final ground connection and there was so much static on the new ground system you would not want to touch anything I added. As soon as I added the ground wire that brought all this back to house ground it settled down and worked great.
Here is my only comments... I really like having the cyclone on the CT. Works GREAT.
But the Festool motor controller is obviously pretty sensitive. My CT is probably 6 or 7 years old but only had about 2 hours use on it when I took the controller out. I would be afraid to take it out of my shop not knowing what the ground conditions are elsewhere. It really needs a good earth ground.
Right now I have the motor plugged directly to the bus so I have to plug/unplug the CT to make it work. My new controller should be here next week. Hoping I don't have any issues in the future.
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Paul G said:
Paul,
I spent a fair amount of time contemplating the effects of using the DD with respect to the vac, but not as much with respect to the tool. So I am not entirely sure whether this would make a difference at the tool or not. Generally speaking, if you have a non-conductive break in the vac system (e.g. a Dust Deputy), then you are better off using non-antistatic hoses for the rest of the system. The reason is because the non-antistatic hoses will spread out the charge differential over their entire length, as opposed to a conductive hose that will make the entire length carry the same charge.
Because the tool is located at the far-upstream end of the airflow, the tool won't experience as much charge elevation when used with a non-antistatic hose. What I am not entirely sure about, is whether this remains true with an antistatic hose. It all depends on where the greatest charge in the system exists.
Please Note!.... I am not referring to nuisance static shocks to the operator. That is a completely separate discussion with completely different answers. I am solely looking at it from the standpoint of protection of the tool. Some postings in the previous threads could not understand this distinction.
Okay, you're standing there sanding a board. (I'm thinking out loud.) The dust is sucked through the tool, through the hose and eventually into the vacuum. As the dust passes through the hose, it creates a static charge. Add something like a plastic cyclone, and that creates additional area to create static charges. The operator is not grounded. The vacuum is. In high humidity, some of the static will be more easily dissipated. In dry air, less so.
All electricity, static or otherwise, seeks a path to ground with the least resistance. In this scenario, the path with the least resistance is within the vacuum.
When building high voltage insulators, we need a large distance between the conductor and whatever we want to insulate it from because stray voltages can track across dust and create a short. So, dust is a known conductor. And dust is traveling through the hose. If the static buildup isn't quickly dissipated, the charge could be sufficient enough to mess with sensitive circuitry, such as within the vacuum.
I think it's a gamble to trust that any static buildup will be dissipated through the air, no matter how humid. Ultimately, any static accumulating on the hose, or plastic cyclone, that is not dissipated through the air will have to be dissipated through the vacuum, unless the operator conducts to ground.
That being the case, I wondered why Festool sells non-antistatic hoses to connect to their vacuums. I'm an electrician, not an electronics expert or scientist, so maybe there's something I'm missing. But for me, I will only use antistatic hoses between the tool and the vac.
All electricity, static or otherwise, seeks a path to ground with the least resistance. In this scenario, the path with the least resistance is within the vacuum.
When building high voltage insulators, we need a large distance between the conductor and whatever we want to insulate it from because stray voltages can track across dust and create a short. So, dust is a known conductor. And dust is traveling through the hose. If the static buildup isn't quickly dissipated, the charge could be sufficient enough to mess with sensitive circuitry, such as within the vacuum.
I think it's a gamble to trust that any static buildup will be dissipated through the air, no matter how humid. Ultimately, any static accumulating on the hose, or plastic cyclone, that is not dissipated through the air will have to be dissipated through the vacuum, unless the operator conducts to ground.
That being the case, I wondered why Festool sells non-antistatic hoses to connect to their vacuums. I'm an electrician, not an electronics expert or scientist, so maybe there's something I'm missing. But for me, I will only use antistatic hoses between the tool and the vac.
In my experience the static vs non static hose is opposite of what you would think. The anti-static hose carries the static all the way to the CT and discharges it there.
When using the cheaper NON anti-static hose the charge is dissipated along the way to anything it touches like the damp floor, other machinery and the operator (me).
When using the cheaper NON anti-static hose the charge is dissipated along the way to anything it touches like the damp floor, other machinery and the operator (me).
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JuliMor said:
Contrary to popular belief, electricity does not specifically flow to ground. It travels from any higher voltage to a lower voltage (the electrons actually flow the opposite, but that is because Ben Franklin got a negative sign backward, and we choose not to correct it today). It also doesn't take the path of least resistance. It takes all paths, but proportional to their resistance.
Even in the absence of a direct discharge path to a lower voltage, the static charge will still dissipate into the air. The rate of discharge is lower than the rate of charge, so that is why static will build up. However, once the source of the charging is removed, the charge will begin to bleed off.
The risk to electronic equipment is when the charge builds to a high enough level to break down whatever insulation value is otherwise keeping it from moving; such as a spark. MOS (CMOS) circuitry is especially susceptible to it, because when the voltage on a MOS transistor exceeds the insulation, it literally punches a hole through the gate insulation and it becomes conductive.
Your example of high voltage insulators is kind of similar. It isn't that the dirt is conductive. It is that once an arc has occurred, it leaves a conductive trace behind that allows more current to flow past the insulator.
I was working on a job once when one of the roofers came up to me and told me that the temporary steel safety cable outside on the roof was live. I knew that wasn't possible because the steel cable was threaded through angle iron that was welded to building steel. But I went out to check anyway and to show him the cable was not live. I took my Fluke meter with me.
As I walked across the rubber roof membrane (the roof was not finished), I realized there was a potential for static buildup. The soles on my shoes did not allow for static buildup as well as the soles of the roofer's shoes. I touched the safety cable and got a mild shock. He touched it and you could both see and hear it. And he jumped. The static buildup in him jumped immediately to a ground source. And it would do the same while using a dust collector, if it had the chance before dissipating.
Electrons take the path of least resistance, and yes, there may be many paths. Seeing a lightning strike shows that clearly. The charge is looking to find it's way to ground and will take any path to get there, as quickly and easily as it can. But it's kind of like a highway, if the roads are packed, you take another route, e.g the path of least resistance.
I've done a few lightning protection jobs. Most people think the purpose of lightning protection on a structure is to attract a lightning strike. But in fact the actual purpose is to dissipate the charge and reduce the positive and negative charge differential in the air. To do that you place sharp pointy spears all around the perimeter of the top of the structure and bond them to a known ground with a conductor sufficient to handle the potential load. If that "highway" gets overloaded, you could have a problem.
The unknown variable with static buildup is how much of a charge is building? While you're sanding away, you can't feel the buildup. And there's nothing to measure the buildup. Typically, a person only knows there's a buildup when the it suddenly discharges, or when their hair stands on end. [blink]
I was a foreman on another job when I arrived at work one morning to see my boss throw a smoking telephone out the trailer door. He screamed as he did that, obviously shocked. I walked into the trailer and he said he was talking on the phone (land line) when it started smoking. Next thing I know the iron worker foreman in the trailer next door comes over and says his doorknob is live. ??? I took my Fluke over and sure enough, the doorknob to trailer's steel stairs read over 50v. The stairs were free standing and now on damp ground from rain the night before. I looked to see if the trailer was grounded. It was. I was scratching my head. Then one of our guys came out of the building and said some of the temp lights were out, some were dim and some were bright.
I went on the hunt to find out what was going on. In the process I also learned the skip (manlift) wasn't working and found the controls were fried. In the end, we finally agreed the building must have taken a lightning strike the night before. Lightning protection was not yet installed. The charge took whatever path it found and damaged a few things along its way to ground, one of them was one leg of the 3 phase temporary transformer.
I've seen some pretty crazy things in my career and I've learned that electrons are unpredictable in an uncontrolled environment. While they ultimately make their way towards their final destination, the exact path cannot be predicted. So you do your best to direct them along the way and help them discharge as quickly as possible so they don't do any damage, and try not to allow yourself, the tool you're using, the dust hose or the vac components to become capacitors. And that's what tells me it's best to make sure your expensive dust vac is protected from that stray charge trying to jump through sensitive circuitry.
As I walked across the rubber roof membrane (the roof was not finished), I realized there was a potential for static buildup. The soles on my shoes did not allow for static buildup as well as the soles of the roofer's shoes. I touched the safety cable and got a mild shock. He touched it and you could both see and hear it. And he jumped. The static buildup in him jumped immediately to a ground source. And it would do the same while using a dust collector, if it had the chance before dissipating.
Electrons take the path of least resistance, and yes, there may be many paths. Seeing a lightning strike shows that clearly. The charge is looking to find it's way to ground and will take any path to get there, as quickly and easily as it can. But it's kind of like a highway, if the roads are packed, you take another route, e.g the path of least resistance.
I've done a few lightning protection jobs. Most people think the purpose of lightning protection on a structure is to attract a lightning strike. But in fact the actual purpose is to dissipate the charge and reduce the positive and negative charge differential in the air. To do that you place sharp pointy spears all around the perimeter of the top of the structure and bond them to a known ground with a conductor sufficient to handle the potential load. If that "highway" gets overloaded, you could have a problem.
The unknown variable with static buildup is how much of a charge is building? While you're sanding away, you can't feel the buildup. And there's nothing to measure the buildup. Typically, a person only knows there's a buildup when the it suddenly discharges, or when their hair stands on end. [blink]
I was a foreman on another job when I arrived at work one morning to see my boss throw a smoking telephone out the trailer door. He screamed as he did that, obviously shocked. I walked into the trailer and he said he was talking on the phone (land line) when it started smoking. Next thing I know the iron worker foreman in the trailer next door comes over and says his doorknob is live. ??? I took my Fluke over and sure enough, the doorknob to trailer's steel stairs read over 50v. The stairs were free standing and now on damp ground from rain the night before. I looked to see if the trailer was grounded. It was. I was scratching my head. Then one of our guys came out of the building and said some of the temp lights were out, some were dim and some were bright.
I went on the hunt to find out what was going on. In the process I also learned the skip (manlift) wasn't working and found the controls were fried. In the end, we finally agreed the building must have taken a lightning strike the night before. Lightning protection was not yet installed. The charge took whatever path it found and damaged a few things along its way to ground, one of them was one leg of the 3 phase temporary transformer.
I've seen some pretty crazy things in my career and I've learned that electrons are unpredictable in an uncontrolled environment. While they ultimately make their way towards their final destination, the exact path cannot be predicted. So you do your best to direct them along the way and help them discharge as quickly as possible so they don't do any damage, and try not to allow yourself, the tool you're using, the dust hose or the vac components to become capacitors. And that's what tells me it's best to make sure your expensive dust vac is protected from that stray charge trying to jump through sensitive circuitry.
Maybe [unsure]lambeater said:
electricity does some weird things. I wired up a GFCI outlet and light in the bottom of an elevator shaft a friday afternoon, tested it both light and outlet tripped properly. Over the weekend the pipe cover let go, and the city sewer system flooded the underground garage and elevator shaft. besides the horrendous smell you could see the light shining up through the raw sewage.
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