Warranty issues using DD / non-Festool vac

[rrmccabe]

could festool not put all these fancy sensitive parts in a fariday cage and protect them that way

They might do something if they sold a CT with a cyclone but I guess they built a dust extractor and it works as designed.  It the 3rd party add-on that causes the issues.

I personally think Oneida should have some ownership in this. They are in reality selling a product that voids another manufactures (or potentially voids) warranty.  They know they had an issue or they would not have a fix out for it.  Torques me off dropping $150 to replace the controller recently.

 

[mattdh]

just curious- would the steel powder coated dd cone solve all these  problems? someone said something about it? sorry i am electrically handicap- i dont follow any of this

 

[JuliMor]

If the hose from your tool to the DD is anti-static and the hose from the cyclone to the vac is anti-static, then yes, the steel cyclone would act as a conductor to complete the path from tool to vacuum.  But if the cone is painted, you'd have to remove the paint where the ports in the cone attach to the hoses.

I know this sounds silly, but an anti-static wrist band, properly grounded, would help dissipate the static charge and do so away from the vacuum (if you didn't ground it to the vacuum).  You could put it on your wrist or even on the hose.  A nearby grounded electrical box would be an excellent ground.  The problem comes from static charge buildup arcing across sensitive electronic components within the vacuum.  If you create a ground path away from the vacuum, you provide a different path for the charge to dissipate, one that wouldn't involve passing through the vacuum or its components.  And if you grounded the cone of the cyclone to something other than the vacuum, you would provide yet another path for the static charge to be dissipated that didn't involve going through the vacuum.

All this probably sounds like overkill but since it is known that the circuit boards fry in the Festool vacs (exactly how depends on the circumstances) anyone could take precautions that are pretty cheap and lessen the chance of having to replace their circuit boards in their vac.  And save $150 along the way.  Taking these steps does not necessarily mean you will never experience a blown board but they will definitely act to dissipate static charge buildup.  When you think about running dust collection pipe throughout your shop for your shop DC, it is always recommended to make sure the path from blast gate to DC is well grounded.  Fire is usually the primary reason given for grounding but it's the static charge that is the culprit.

I'm an electrician, not a Festool engineer.  Their engineers may say none of this is necessary but I doubt they would say it's inadvisable.  So until a Festool engineer pipes in, we're on our own to figure out how to best protect the sensitive components in their dust collectors. 

 

[AdamM]

I've done a few lightning protection jobs.  Most people think the purpose of lightning protection on a structure is to attract a lightning strike.  But in fact the actual purpose is to dissipate the charge and reduce the positive and negative charge differential in the air.  To do that you place sharp pointy spears all around the perimeter of the top of the structure and bond them to a known ground with a conductor sufficient to handle the potential load.  If that "highway" gets overloaded, you could have a problem.

It's amazing how often one hears the opposite...and I'm not even an electrician!

There was a recent episode of This Old House where the contractor described lightning rods as something to attract the lightning strike and channel it to ground.  The contractor and Kevin explained that the lightning would be channelled through all the copper cables and lead to ground.  It made me want to cry.....the amount of energy in a lightning strike would melt there little copper cables into copper puddles long before dissipating all that energy!

 

[doc4som]

So..... after reading all these dissertations... can someone give an electrically -challenged individual a "grounding for dummies" version of what to actually do with a plastic and/or metallic DustDeputy connected to a Festool vac? Diagrams , pictures, part lists would be welcomed.

 

[JuliMor]

So..... after reading all these dissertations... can someone give an electrically -challenged individual a "grounding for dummies" version of what to actually do with a plastic and/or metallic DustDeputy connected to a Festool vac? Diagrams , pictures, part lists would be welcomed.

Unless you have some pretty sophisticated testing equipment, you can't know the exact path the static charge is taking from tool to ground.  There seems to be a reasonable possibility that some of the failed boards in CT vacs was caused by static charge buildup arcing through the board.  If you want to take all the precautionary measures you can to prevent this from happening, you need to think along the lines of those who work with PC boards.  They typically work on anti-static floor mats and wear anti-static wrist straps.  Using this in the tool shop would help dissipate the static buildup near the tool and not allow the operator to act as a capacitor (something that holds an electrical charge).

If you have anti-static hoses from the tool to the DD and from the DD to the vac, you're off to a good start.  This is what Oneida says is included with the Ultimate DD:
Kit Includes:
- Industrial Static Dissipative, 9 Gallon (34L) container
- Dust Bagger, plastic bag hold-down system. No messy dumping - allows easy removal of dust in plastic bags.
- Static dissipating cyclone separator
- 6 feet of static dissipating hose with static dissipating cuffs

Although they say the cyclone is static dissipating, they include metallic tape and instructions that tell you to create a path from port to port and to one of the metal bolts that secures the cyclone to the collection bin. 

You can see the ground tail coming off the bolt at the base of the cone.

So maybe the cyclone isn't all that static dissipating. And that may also be true of the hose that comes with it.

You can use copper tape to do the same thing as in the photo above.  Then make a ground wire with something like an alligator clip on one end and a fork or ring terminal on the other end.  The third from left is a fork terminal, the fourth is a ring terminal:

The ring or fork will attach to the bolt at the base of the cyclone (as in the pic above).  The alligator clip should be attached to a known ground.

Now you should be dissipating static charges created from the tool to the cyclone and, to some extent, from the hose going to the vacuum.  That should reduce a substantial portion of the static created.

Caveats -
1. Festool does not recommend third party accessories in between their tools and their vacs.  My guess is they only test their products with their accessories.  And they feel comfortable enough to warranty their tools as they do when used in conjunction with their accessories.

2.  Static charges that are allowed to build up will eventually arc across the first thing they see as a path to ground.  My OHM meter registers zero when tested across a Festool anti-static hose.  But my meter only pushes 9 volts.  Rubbing your feet across the carpet can create 10,000 volts.  I do not know the inner workings of the CT or how, or if, an anti-static hose works to protect the vac's circuitry.  Maybe that wasn't even a thought when they designed it.  According to their website:
Festool's Antistatic hose design helps you work cleaner by preventing dust from accumulating on the exterior of the hose. It helps you work more safely by preventing static discharge or shocks. And you'll work more efficiently with a system that prevents clogging due to particulate buildup inside the hose.
They don't specifically say the hose protects your tools.  But some have said after adding the DD, they started getting shocks at the tool.  So you know the discharge path is being interrupted by the DD.

The DD does work great.  But when you have to empty it, it can be a dusty mess.  I got mine to keep my $35 "HEPA" shop vac filter from clogging and losing suction.  It works for that purpose but I seem to lose some of the suction through the DD.  So who wins?  But when it comes to the CT vac, bags cost $7@.  They can last a long time if you're sanding.  If you're planing or routing, you could probably do well with the LongLife bag, which costs about the same as the UDD and doesn't void the warranty.  So with all that, is the UDD really the best choice for Festool dust collectors?

 

[Rick Christopherson]

If you have anti-static hoses from the tool to the DD and from the DD to the vac, you're off to a good start. 

To the contrary, using anti-static hoses with a non-antistatic break in the middle (i.e a Dust Deputy) will actually increase the likelihood of damaging the other components of the system (i.e. the tool or vac). That's because the antistatic hose effectively places the potential of the tool or vac at the same potential of the DD's inlet or outlet tubes.

That would be fine if the DD was not capable of developing a significant buildup of potential (voltage) between its inlet and outlet tubes. However, it is well known that the DD can develop a large potential across its ports. When that potential grows large enough to jump the gap across the DD, then you have a sudden charge being interjected into either the tool or the vac.

If you were using non-antistatic hoses with a non-antistatic break in the middle, this sudden discharge anywhere in the system would not immediately propagate through the hoses and into the electronics. The non-antistatic hoses would allow a charge gradient to exist from one end to the other. So a sudden discharge at any point would not immediately propagate from that discharge point to all other points in the system.

The reason why this may not be fully intuitive for you could be that you are thinking of charge dissipation in terms of pure insulators or pure conductors. Antistatic devices are neither. They are high resistance conductors. They are sufficient to bleed charge, but are not what we normally consider to be conductive. As such, the resistivity of a connection between components is greatly dependent on the surface area of the connection. This is why the copper tape is not necessarily a satisfactory solution. The copper tape is of course very conductive, but the connection to the antistatic devises is not very conductive due to the low surface area of the contact.

 

[rrmccabe]

I agree with Rick on this one.. My recent experience with the non anti-static hose makes me think it's better. In a nutshell don't try harder to route the static to the CT.  Just try to dissapate to ground the static that does make it.

And regarding Oneida... after recent issues and working with their support department I give them zero credibility for knowing what they are doing or caring to fix it properly. Their "fix" for the UDD speaks volumes.

 

[JuliMor]

If you have anti-static hoses from the tool to the DD and from the DD to the vac, you're off to a good start. 

To the contrary, using anti-static hoses with a non-antistatic break in the middle (i.e a Dust Deputy) will actually increase the likelihood of damaging the other components of the system (i.e. the tool or vac).

True, but I wasn't suggesting that.  If you read on you would see that I suggested creating a path across the plastic cone with conductive tape, as in the picture I posted.  I also suggested grounding the bolt, like in the picture.

 

[Rick Christopherson]

If you have anti-static hoses from the tool to the DD and from the DD to the vac, you're off to a good start. 

To the contrary, using anti-static hoses with a non-antistatic break in the middle (i.e a Dust Deputy) will actually increase the likelihood of damaging the other components of the system (i.e. the tool or vac).

True, but I wasn't suggesting that.  If you read on you would see that I suggested creating a path across the plastic cone with conductive tape, as in the picture I posted.  I also suggested grounding the bolt, like in the picture.

As I mentioned in my post, the tape is very conductive, but the small surface area of contact with a hose does not result in a low conductivity connection with an antistatic hose. The conductivity of the hose is very low, until you take into account its entire surface area. But that tape is only touching a very small part of the surface.

The same is true with the Earth. The conductivity of dirt is almost zero, but when you take the total volume of the earth into account, that zero becomes very conductive. An infinite number of parallel paths through a high resistance body will result in a relatively small total resistance. As an electrician, you know that a single ground rod will not likely give you a low resistance connection to earth-ground. Technically, even 2 rods won't do that, but that is the limit of the NEC requirement on ground rods. It takes a very large surface area to make a reasonable connection to a non-conductive object.

 

[jacko9]

Has anyone contacted Oneida with this continuing issue?  I have the Oneida V-System shop system and I'm very happy with it and I have the UDD on my CT22 which I am now concerned about.  I have contacted my sales representative at Oneida about the concerns expressed here on the FOG and I was wondering if anybody else has contacted them for a solution?

Jack

 

[rrmccabe]

I did.  They sent me the cheap tape solution which I didn't use. They act like its no big deal that I had to buy a new $145 controller.

I also sent an email to customer service about 10 days ago. No response.

The way I look at it the UDD is a turnkey solution that comes at a premium price of twice the cost of standard DD.

 

[farms100]

Wrapping the plastic DD in tinfoil would give you lots of surface area. Also it would fit in well with any friends that are conspiracy theorists.  [big grin]

 

[JuliMor]

You can use copper tape to do the same thing as in the photo above. 

I was thinking this:

Regardless, the bottom line is how important is it to the owner of a Festool vac to catch dust and chips before it reaches the vacuum bag?  For me, as I stated earlier, I won't connect the DD to the CT vac.  It's a great system as is.  Each owner has to decide for himself or herself what's most important to them and accept any consequences that may happen from ignoring Festool's recommendations.

I did.  They sent me the cheap tape solution which I didn't use. They act like its no big deal that I had to buy a new $145 controller.

I also sent an email to customer service about 10 days ago. No response.

The way I look at it the UDD is a turnkey solution that comes at a premium price of twice the cost of standard DD.

Sorry to hear that happened.  Though it doesn't say much about Oneida, does it? 

 

[Paul G]

Wrapping the plastic DD in tinfoil would give you lots of surface area. Also it would fit in well with any friends that are conspiracy theorists.   [big grin]

Which explains why they are rarely affected by all the static that is thrown at them [big grin]

Gonna add some grounding to my Oneida and see how it goes.

 

[farms100]

that copper tape looks pretty cool.

I wonder as you wrap the tape up and overlap like you would when taping a splice.  Would the adhesive interfere with the good grounding contact?

 

[rrmccabe]

So..... after reading all these dissertations... can someone give an electrically -challenged individual a "grounding for dummies" version of what to actually do with a plastic and/or metallic DustDeputy connected to a Festool vac? Diagrams , pictures, part lists would be welcomed.

The problem is there is no official and perfect fix.  Because no matter what you do with Oneida  you are still going to have 'potential' warranty issues with Festool.

The other issue is Oneida has come out with a repair that is Mickey Mouse and is cheap for them to provide.  In my opinion its an eye sore and prone to failure when the tape breaks after a few times sliding the hoses on and off.

In a nutshell Oneida wants you to electrically connect the inlet and outlet of the cyclone as well as the base. They want you to connect this to ground although they don't tell you how.

I basically followed Oneida's electrical recommendations but did it in a physical manner that I felt was acceptable and properly done.

So as you requested here are a few pictures.  As you can see I formed thin copper to fit the cyclone inlet and outlet and made a tab that sticks inside where the debris drops into the box.   I connected all of this with wires (and a connector for easy removal) and ran it back to the inlet of the CT where I have another formed copper piece and a wire entering the CT and connecting to the power bus.

Note: Blue wire connected to bus is the one I added.

 

[Oneida-Jeff]

A few of our customers have reported static problems while using the Dust Deputy.  Oneida is offering an upgraded grounding kit which includes a
more-conductive hose and supplemental grounding components free of charge for those customers.  This should eliminate any static problems on vacuums with static conductive inlets which are properly connected to a functional house ground.

Couple notes:
Not all vacuums have a static-conductive inlet.  Please ensure that your vacuum has an anti-static inlet and if it does not you must provide an alternate direct earth ground path from your hose and connections. 

Some people have reported that their static problems were caused by an improperly connected house ground.  Please ensure you are properly connected to a house ground per your vacuum’s instructions.

Currently all Oneida Ultimate Dust Deputies from the factory have static dissipative components and these supplemental grounding measures to ensure a completely grounded system. 

Please click here for more info and to request the upgrade kit.

-Jeff
Oneida Air Systems

 

[ridgenj]

Jeff, many thanks for the update  and for standing behind your products.

My best
Luis

 

[rrmccabe]

and supplemental grounding components

Thanks for response. By supplimental grounding components do you mean 3' of foil stick on tape?

If so, I really don't consider this a long term fix as sliding the hoses on and off will sever the tape where its folded over the fitting.

If I come off as disgruntled its because I am.  I just shelled out $150 for a new motor controller last week because of the UDD when it was supposed to be a turn-key solution for the Festool CT vacuums.  So still have a bad taste in my mouth.

Once again I appreciate you taking time to respond here.