What are these additional holes on TSO GRS-16PE?
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squall_line
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There's a sentence on the web page immediately underneath where that picture is usually found. It states:
"Notice the M6 tapped holes in the right side – they line up and match the MFT/3 hinge bracket mounting holes"
"Notice the M6 tapped holes in the right side – they line up and match the MFT/3 hinge bracket mounting holes"
squall_line
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Luckily, Hans posts on here, so I'm sure [member=61691]TSO_Products[/member] could chime in if another user doesn't already know what they're for.
tjbnwi
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The four holes the OP has circled are not threaded. I have no clue what they are intended for.
The 4 holes closer to the centerline of the body are tapped for the PG system.
The two holes on each side of the boss that goes into the guide rail slot are for mounting the GRS to the MFT flip bracket.
Tom
The 4 holes closer to the centerline of the body are tapped for the PG system.
The two holes on each side of the boss that goes into the guide rail slot are for mounting the GRS to the MFT flip bracket.
Tom
The untapped holes may well be construction holes to facilitate machining of all the critical features in one setup. By fastening the plate down with four bolts thru pre-machined holes all other features are accessible to milling cutters, drills and taps without disturbing anything.
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OffCuts said:
[member=54579]OffCuts[/member] – Your picture of an older GRS-16 PE shows four un-tapped through-holes which were never intended to have any function in the user’s shop. They represented an option for us which we never chose to pursue.
For this reason we discontinued and eliminated them from production some time ago. And for the same reason there was no point in having them included in the FESTOOL license built FS-WA/90 version.
[member=4105]tjbnwi[/member] – now you have the official answer:
“The extra un-tapped through holes never had a customer use and were discontinued in more
recent production. The OffCuts' picture shows an earlier production GRS-16 PE”.
With that bit a TSO Trivia question answered, TSO wishes you all an enjoyable woodworking weekend! [smile]
Hans
So, [member=61691]TSO_Products[/member], can I infer then from your above explanation that the FS-WA/90 is fully compatible with TSO's "TPG Parallel Guide System" and that it (the FS-WA/90) also provides the same functionality (the functionality which allows the GRS-16 PE to mount to the MFT/3 guide rail hinge bracket) when used in conjunction with the MFT/3?
You alluded strongly in the last paragraph of your response here to the exciting potential that this setup provides, at least as it relates to the GR-16 PE. Further, one can witness this potential at play, again as it applies to the GR-16 PE, by viewing the images which appear here, here, here and here (the last two depicting the setup for someone who is left handed).
However, while I assume, from examining photos of the FS-WA/90 - a TSO-licensed accessory which appears to include the identical six threaded mounting holes that are a feature of the GR-16 PE (in the case of the latter: four intended for the installation of your parallel guides - left or right depending upon which end of the cut the GRS-16 PE is mounted on - and the two remaining for mounting the guide rail square directly to the hinge bracket on the MFT/3) - that the FS-WA/90 is identical in every way (not including the livery of course) to the GR-16 PE, it would be nice to get formal confirmation about this from the patent holder. The discussion here comes tantalizingly close to answering this question but falls just short of doing so. Hoping you can clear this up for me.
On a related note, two years and almost seven months have elapsed since you divulged on the forum the potential of attaching a GR-16 PE guide rail square to the MFT/3 hinge bracket and, for the right-handed among us, attaching a "right" TPG parallel guide to the guide rail square to allow for repeatable and accurate cross cuts (when used with a flip stop(s)). I understand that you got the idea from a UK user. And, yet, it doesn't appear that this technique has caught on. A quick web search produces scant evidence or people having adopted it. Since it looks to me like this technique addresses all kinds of shortcomings with the MFT/3 (and lines up nicely with my desire to own tools which have multiple purposes and uses), why are we not hearing more about this? Is there more to the story? IOW is this not the panacea that it appears to be?
I look forward to your reply.
You alluded strongly in the last paragraph of your response here to the exciting potential that this setup provides, at least as it relates to the GR-16 PE. Further, one can witness this potential at play, again as it applies to the GR-16 PE, by viewing the images which appear here, here, here and here (the last two depicting the setup for someone who is left handed).
However, while I assume, from examining photos of the FS-WA/90 - a TSO-licensed accessory which appears to include the identical six threaded mounting holes that are a feature of the GR-16 PE (in the case of the latter: four intended for the installation of your parallel guides - left or right depending upon which end of the cut the GRS-16 PE is mounted on - and the two remaining for mounting the guide rail square directly to the hinge bracket on the MFT/3) - that the FS-WA/90 is identical in every way (not including the livery of course) to the GR-16 PE, it would be nice to get formal confirmation about this from the patent holder. The discussion here comes tantalizingly close to answering this question but falls just short of doing so. Hoping you can clear this up for me.
On a related note, two years and almost seven months have elapsed since you divulged on the forum the potential of attaching a GR-16 PE guide rail square to the MFT/3 hinge bracket and, for the right-handed among us, attaching a "right" TPG parallel guide to the guide rail square to allow for repeatable and accurate cross cuts (when used with a flip stop(s)). I understand that you got the idea from a UK user. And, yet, it doesn't appear that this technique has caught on. A quick web search produces scant evidence or people having adopted it. Since it looks to me like this technique addresses all kinds of shortcomings with the MFT/3 (and lines up nicely with my desire to own tools which have multiple purposes and uses), why are we not hearing more about this? Is there more to the story? IOW is this not the panacea that it appears to be?
I look forward to your reply.
squall_line
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TinyShop said:
It has been posted numerous times in a number of places that the FS-WA/90 is licensed by Festool from TSO for production in the European market. It has the TSO logo on the latch, for pete's sake. I'm not sure what the point is in insisting on confirmation of this simple fact from "the patent holder".
squall_line said:
Yes, that part is well known. But just to be sure, the part that isn't well known (I can't find any reference anywhere to Festool ever having announced that their Festool-branded version provides this functionality) needs to be addressed.
The silence from Festool seems weird right? I certainly think so which is why I'm simply seeking confirmation of what may appear obvious but which I don't think has even been formally confirmed.
That's the point.
TinyShop said:So, [member=61691]TSO_Products[/member], can I infer then from your above explanation that the FS-WA/90 is fully compatible with TSO's "TPG Parallel Guide System" and that it (the FS-WA/90) also provides the same functionality (the functionality which allows the GRS-16 PE to mount to the MFT/3 guide rail hinge bracket) when used in conjunction with the MFT/3?
You alluded strongly in the last paragraph of your response here to the exciting potential that this setup provides, at least as it relates to the GR-16 PE. Further, one can witness this potential at play, again as it applies to the GR-16 PE, by viewing the images which appear here, here, here and here (the last two depicting the setup for someone who is left handed).
However, while I assume, from examining photos of the FS-WA/90 - a TSO-licensed accessory which appears to include the identical six threaded mounting holes that are a feature of the GR-16 PE (in the case of the latter: four intended for the installation of your parallel guides - left or right depending upon which end of the cut the GRS-16 PE is mounted on - and the two remaining for mounting the guide rail square directly to the hinge bracket on the MFT/3) - that the FS-WA/90 is identical in every way (not including the livery of course) to the GR-16 PE, it would be nice to get formal confirmation about this from the patent holder. The discussion here comes tantalizingly close to answering this question but falls just short of doing so. Hoping you can clear this up for me.
On a related note, two years and almost seven months have elapsed since you divulged on the forum the potential of attaching a GR-16 PE guide rail square to the MFT/3 hinge bracket and, for the right-handed among us, attaching a "right" TPG parallel guide to the guide rail square to allow for repeatable and accurate cross cuts (when used with a flip stop(s)). I understand that you got the idea from a UK user. And, yet, it doesn't appear that this technique has caught on. A quick web search produces scant evidence or people having adopted it. Since it looks to me like this technique addresses all kinds of shortcomings with the MFT/3 (and lines up nicely with my desire to own tools which have multiple purposes and uses), why are we not hearing more about this? Is there more to the story? IOW is this not the panacea that it appears to be?
I look forward to your reply.
Hmmmm, [member=59331]TSO Products[/member] and [member=61691]TSO_Products[/member] - maybe I tagged the wrong user the first time around? Still hoping for a reply to my above questions. Thanks!
I gotta be honest Tiny Shop I have read your post several times and am not completely sure what you are asking TSO. It is clear it is the same as their square just with a different color. They and others have said as much before as you noted and it is obvious from a quick visual inspection. It is clear it will work with their products. You provide your own images of it being used on the mft bracket by users so I am not sure what more you are looking for. I can understand you are trying to get TSO to confirm the photos, though I am not sure why.
I also think TSO is going to be careful not to step on Festool's toes in their response since I imagine a good working relationship with them is important and they are a big customer. I doubt they are going to tell you to replace festool's product with their own. Especially on Festool's own forum.
If you want to replace Festool's mft set up with the TSO product just do it, what are you looking for exactly?
I can tell you from experience that their square and parallel guides are great. I have both and use both at least once a week for my living. I also have the festool parallel guides and while there are a couple of uses where the extensions are handy they pretty much live on the wall. I personally like the MFT track system just fine and use it every day, but I can understand the desire to improve. While the TSO guide rail square is great and gets a good solid lock on the rail it would not work in the MFT flip for us. We take the MFT on and off jobs and I just worry about it getting reefed on during transport. Plus we are using it constantly on the sheet goods stack and wouldnt want it screwed down. Often one person is doing longer rips on the sheet good stack and using the square and parallel guides and another person is doing crosscuts at the mft. Just out work flow but yours may differ. Just my use experience if that helps.
I also think TSO is going to be careful not to step on Festool's toes in their response since I imagine a good working relationship with them is important and they are a big customer. I doubt they are going to tell you to replace festool's product with their own. Especially on Festool's own forum.
If you want to replace Festool's mft set up with the TSO product just do it, what are you looking for exactly?
I can tell you from experience that their square and parallel guides are great. I have both and use both at least once a week for my living. I also have the festool parallel guides and while there are a couple of uses where the extensions are handy they pretty much live on the wall. I personally like the MFT track system just fine and use it every day, but I can understand the desire to improve. While the TSO guide rail square is great and gets a good solid lock on the rail it would not work in the MFT flip for us. We take the MFT on and off jobs and I just worry about it getting reefed on during transport. Plus we are using it constantly on the sheet goods stack and wouldnt want it screwed down. Often one person is doing longer rips on the sheet good stack and using the square and parallel guides and another person is doing crosscuts at the mft. Just out work flow but yours may differ. Just my use experience if that helps.
[member=32538]MaineShop[/member] - It's subtle, I know.
But, to be clear, I haven't provided any photos of the Festool-branded version attached to the hinge bracket. The TSO-branded one, yes. The Festool branded one, no.
Without seeing these products in person there's no way to know what subtle differences there may be.
Yes, the holes look similar. But that's hardly enough - that they look similar - to base a decision on. Remember, for many of our brethren living on the other side of the pond, it's no easy (or cheap) matter to get hold of TSO products. So, I would think that folks in that situation would need a little more than vague appearances to base a decision on (IOW to spend a small fortune importing the TSO TPG). Be pretty disappointing to go through the trouble of getting ahold of a set only to learn that the hole alignment doesn't match.
That's all I'm saying: it's weird that Festool has never addressed whether these products are compatible with each other. For all we know, the hole pattern doesn't match and they are instead intended for some as-of-yet unreleased proprietary use.
Moreover, that TSO (which is normally Johnny on the spot when it comes to responding to tags) hasn't yet responded is also weird. At this point, I'm just trying to get to the bottom of this rather odd silence.
But, to be clear, I haven't provided any photos of the Festool-branded version attached to the hinge bracket. The TSO-branded one, yes. The Festool branded one, no.
Without seeing these products in person there's no way to know what subtle differences there may be.
Yes, the holes look similar. But that's hardly enough - that they look similar - to base a decision on. Remember, for many of our brethren living on the other side of the pond, it's no easy (or cheap) matter to get hold of TSO products. So, I would think that folks in that situation would need a little more than vague appearances to base a decision on (IOW to spend a small fortune importing the TSO TPG). Be pretty disappointing to go through the trouble of getting ahold of a set only to learn that the hole alignment doesn't match.
That's all I'm saying: it's weird that Festool has never addressed whether these products are compatible with each other. For all we know, the hole pattern doesn't match and they are instead intended for some as-of-yet unreleased proprietary use.
Moreover, that TSO (which is normally Johnny on the spot when it comes to responding to tags) hasn't yet responded is also weird. At this point, I'm just trying to get to the bottom of this rather odd silence.
squall_line
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TinyShop said:
Why not just go to a local Festool dealer and put your hands on the Festool square yourself?
And if they have an MFT set up (almost all of them do), ask if you can try to attach the square to the bracket?
You'd have an answer that you have verified with your own eyes and hands much more quickly than coming on a web forum and repeatedly calling out manufacturers for your perception of their action or inaction (similar to your berating of Woodpecker's in another thread).
DynaGlide
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[member=64030]TinyShop[/member] I don't mean this disrespectfully, but it's an honest observation. What do Festool or TSO Products owe you as the consumer in the form of a response? Festool markets the TSO licensed guide rail square as a guide rail square and nothing more. End of marketing.
Beyond that, it is up to the consumer to decide if its worth gambling on a purchase to find out if it will do anything else than what it is marketed as doing.
Festool will never give you an answer. It is against their best interest to do so. I'm surprised they even left the holes in place and wouldn't be shocked to see them removed in the future.
TSO may have an agreement in place to not offer up information regarding compatibility of the square with a product that undercuts Festool's own parallel guides.
[2cents]
Matt
Beyond that, it is up to the consumer to decide if its worth gambling on a purchase to find out if it will do anything else than what it is marketed as doing.
Festool will never give you an answer. It is against their best interest to do so. I'm surprised they even left the holes in place and wouldn't be shocked to see them removed in the future.
TSO may have an agreement in place to not offer up information regarding compatibility of the square with a product that undercuts Festool's own parallel guides.
[2cents]
Matt
[member=65062]DynaGlide[/member] - I'm not privy to whatever the terms are between these two businesses in regards to their licensing agreement. I don't care about that. I think the TSO kit is super cool (and the company one worth singing the praises of) and also think it would be neat if folks in Europe could be made aware of their products if compatability can be achieved so they can take advantage like we can in N.A. I see this as one benefit of this forum - to eliminate borders in the sense of info and technique sharing. The "democratization of tools", if you will. Maybe I won't get an answer but at least we're having the conversation.
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