What's Your Method for Entering the Forum?

[Dave Rudy]

Matthew, whatever you do, please increase the number of recent posts we can look at.  The way this forum moves, it is not unusual to accumulate 100 posts in 1 to 1-1/2 days.  When on trips or over Sunday (I skip the web on Sunday) I miss unread posts just because I can't find them.

Thanks

 

[Matthew Schenker]

Matthew, whatever you do, please increase the number of recent posts we can look at.  The way this forum moves, it is not unusual to accumulate 100 posts in 1 to 1-1/2 days.

Keep in mind that, by default, SMF displays 25 recent posts.  I've already boosted that number to 100, which puts extra strain on our database in terms of bandwidth every time someone opens the recent posts feature.  The thing is, there's no end to increasing that number.  At present, I'd have to increase it to about 250 to assure all possible recent posts show up (based on recent potential activity levels).  In time, people could reasonably request it gets raised to 300, 350...  That would be untenable using our current server.  It might be possible at some point to revisit this, but at the moment I can't go beyond 100.

When on trips or over Sunday (I skip the web on Sunday) I miss unread posts just because I can't find them.

I know I run the risk of sounding like a broken record, but that's part of my job description here!  You won't miss unread posts if you just click here.

Matthew

 

[mhch]

Well, I've made my pitch!

Staying signed into the forum actually will prevent you from seeing new posts through the "UNREAD POSTS" function.  No matter how you use it, you are likely to miss a lot of forum activity relying on the "UNREAD POSTS" function.

Anyway, it might be a moot point: the "UNREAD POSTS since last visit" function will be gone in the new version of SMF.
It's so funny how things evolve.  My original intent was to discuss two other functions!  That's OK with me, since it's all important.
I have edited the poll to reflect this discussion.  Everyone please vote again!
Matthew

You do a good job keeping us aware of the issues, forthcoming changes, etc ...
Then we adapt ourselves to both our needs and what the SMF software does,
and each one of us will do it differently.

Of course, I may sometimes use another approach when I've been away for several days,
or I feel I missed interesting topics.

Thanks for keeping us aware, Matthew

 

[Matthew Schenker]

You do a good job keeping us aware of the issues, forthcoming changes, etc ...
Then we adapt ourselves to both our needs and what the SMF software does,
and each one of us will do it differently.

Thanks for your comments!  It's really important that I continue to be able to get a sense of how the community uses the forum and what members' preferences are.  The forum has grown to the point where I need to get this information through polls like this.  I want to make sure that there isn't some need coursing through the membership, with me being unaware of it!  That, and my interest in contributing to the technical development of SMF, are my main motivations.

Depending on what people report, it's possible the whole structure of forum boards could be reconfigured.  For example, if it turns out that people are not making use of all the categories, why have them at all?  Maybe it would be better to just have a straight board structure, without categories, like Sawmill Creek?  Or maybe it will be confirmed that the category structure is what people prefer.

My point is, there is no reason to maintain a structure that people don't want.  But I don't what people want until I hear from you!  Let's see if this poll can help shed some light on the question.

Matthew

 

[semenza]

... But what I am going to switch to is  Bookmarking the All Unread Topics page and just refresh it when I come online.  Then check in on occasion at the Home Page  in case something is going on there.

... I just perfer to get right to what I want  which is everything that I have not read yet.

Therein lies the trouble!!  There is no such function "All Unread Topics"!  The only way to achieve what you describe is to go to the home page! 

This was not the original intent of this discussion, but I think it is important to explain these functions correctly.  The function you are talking about is "UNREAD POSTS since last visit."  The key words are "since last visit."  Let's say you sign into the forum at 8:00 AM and there are 100 new messages, and let's assume that thet are all displayed.  Let's say you only have time to read 20 of them, then sign off, then come back at 11:00 AM.  Well, the 80 posts you hadn't read from earlier in the day no longer appear.  (Even worse, for some reason, they will appear sometimes, but not other times.)  There has been feverish discussion about this in various SMF technical boards.  I strongly advise against using this as your entry point to the forum!!

For different reasons, people who use the "Recent Posts" page as their entry point also could end up inadvertently skipping new posts.  The "Recent Posts" function is only designed to keep track of 25 posts (I've tweaked the code to get it to 100).  But we often have over 200 posts a day, so anyone who misses a relatively short space of time, and who uses the "Recent Posts" as the exclusive entry point, is going to miss lots of new posts.

The only reliable way to make sure you see all new forum activity is to go to...you guessed it -- THE FORUM!  From the home page, you can navigate from one board to the next, looking for illuminated "F" icons.  Using that method, all posts you have not read are marked as "new" until you read them or until you click the "Mark ALL messages as read" button.

My reason for starting this poll is because I need to know who is using which method, so I can contribute to some of the active technical discussions in the SMF sites.  We're trying to track the way people use these functions, so we can perhaps expand the ways people use the software.  It's a long shot, but the only chance we have.

Matthew

Hi,

        Well , yeah there is a function called All Unread Topics, I use it everyday. I am using it right now. I know that it is different than Unread Posts Since Last Visit, and also different than Recent Posts.  The feature called Unread Posts Since Last Visit does what we both described.    And the feature called All Unread Topics brings up  everything that you have not read before regardless of visits.    

       You can find and access All Unread Topics by doing this-

             1. Go to the Home Page (or pretty much any other page as well)

             2. Click Unread Posts Since Last Visit

             3. Scroll to the bottom  of that page.

             4. In the gray bar at the bottom of the topics list, on the right hand side, in white letters you will find All Unread Topics.

             5. Click on the words All Unread Topics, it will bring up every topic that has posts in it that you have not yet read regardless of the last visit.

             6. Bookmark that page.

      You can now refresh that when ever you want. I frequently do this when there is a back and forth conversation going on. That way I can be reading whatever topic, go back to the list of All Unread Topics, hit refresh and instantly see if a new post has shown up in the last couple minutes. It works. As far as I can tell it is reliable. I do not remember ever missing anything by using this method.  As for the reliability of Unread Posts Since Last Visit goes I don't know. It doesn't matter much to me because I always end up at All Unread Topics any way. In fact I am now going directly to that page.

    I feel that Matthew is correct, we all need to make sure we are using the right terms because there are several different features that can be easily confused.  

            Recent Posts
            Unread Posts Since Last Visit
            All Unread Topics

    I think that it is possible that people may not realise that All Unread Topics is located where it is and even if you see it, the words don't really look like they are a "button" / function.  

    If the feature All Unread Topics were available on the Home Page, I would enter through the Home Page all the time.  I think that Matthew has done a great job with the look and structure of the forum pages. And the Home Page layout with the various board categories is a great set up when people are interested in particular areas of Festool / woodworking. Especially with the newer boards and names that Matthew has added / changed. For me I just want to read everything . So going to individual categories and moving between areas just doesn't work as well.  Especially when I want to follow a topic that is "active" with the involved users currently online.

     I realise that the poll was set to determine something specific. But in the starting post of this topic you  do say-

             "This subject of the various ways people enter and navigate through the forum has come up in various discussions.  I'd like to have one place to collect all the comments and ideas on this subject.  It's important for me to understand what people are thinking on this as I consider forum design ideas for the future."-

     So regardless of the poll question it does seem that you wanted to have a discussion on the ways people navigate the forum so that you will have as much useful info as possible to continue upgrading the forum in positive ways as you have done so well in the past.

Seth

 

[Daviddubya]

...Maybe it would be better to just have a straight board structure, without categories, like Sawmill Creek?  Or maybe it will be confirmed that the category structure is what people prefer.

My point is, there is no reason to maintain a structure that people don't want.  But I don't what people want until I hear from you!  Let's see if this poll can help shed some light on the question.

Matthew

Matthew  - As you probably already know, I am a fan of Sawmill Creek.  The way I use that forum, I always enter in the General Woodworking and Power Tools forum.  New messages are in bold.  I can go to another forum using the navigation menu at the bottom of the page.  IMHO, the smaller the number of categories, however you define them, the more likely the categories will make sense.  Another thing about Sawmill Creek is there is a lot of moderation - several volunteer moderators reading posts and keeping threads on track.  I often see a thread moved from one forum to another, because it is in the wrong forum.  I visit only two of the forums at Sawmill Creek regularly - General... and Lumber Yard (for contributors).

No matter what you do some people will want to use a category structure, and others will not.

 

[Matthew Schenker]

        You can find and access All Unread Topics by doing this-

              1. Go to the Home Page (or pretty much any other page as well)

              2. Click Unread Posts Since Last Visit

              3. Scroll to the bottom  of that page.

              4. In the gray bar at the bottom of the topics list, on the right hand side, in white letters you will find All Unread Topics.

              5. Click on the words All Unread Topics, it will bring up every topic that has posts in it that you have not yet read regardless of the last visit.

That last part is not always true.  What you see when you do this is not necessarily a list of every post regardless of the last visit.  The only way to do that (I'm being a broken record again) is to do board-by-board navigation from the home page.  The problem here is that, except for going board by board, all other methods for getting updated activity are affected by some of the coding, or by how each person maintains his or her browser.
My job is to make sure people know all this, while also working to improve various features members like.
Matthew

 

[dsweetser]

As was stated earlier, we'll adapt.

 

[Allen Akin]

Matthew said:

What you see when you do this is not necessarily a list of every post regardless of the last visit.  The only way to do that (I'm being a broken record again) is to do board-by-board navigation from the home page.

Then that's what the "All Unread Topics" link should be programmed to do.    Seriously, this sort of feature has been available in newsreaders since the dawn of the Internet age.  I don't understand why the SMF folks are finding it so difficult to support.

I use the structure of the forum when I need to search it.  I don't use the structure of the forum just to keep up with daily postings.  In a few seconds I can see where there's posting activity and either read a thread in its entirety or just see what's new (via the "NEW" buttons).  Being forced to manually enter each board and scan there is a much slower, repetitive-stress-prone, and less user-friendly approach.

Allen

 

[Matthew Schenker]

... Seriously, this sort of feature has been available in newsreaders since the dawn of the Internet age.  I don't understand why the SMF folks are finding it so difficult to support.

Ah, yes, but this is not a newsreader!  It's kind of a different animal.  A forum is designed, from the ground up, to be presented with a board structure.  Otherwise, yes, we could just have a newslist.  I have a feeling that a lot of members have experience using newsreaders, and that's where the reliance on the "Recent Posts" and "UNREAD POSTS since last visit" features may be coming from.  By the way, those features were not always so reliable on newsreaders of old!

The SMF coders have put their creativity and energy into a reliable board structure.  The other ways of using the forum are less of a priority to them.  Another issue is that the "Recent Posts" and "UNREAD POSTS" features do behave differently for different people.  There has been a lot of discussion about this in the SMF technical sites, with no complete resolution.

I wouldn't mind if these features worked better, but until then I think it's important to do what I can to make sure people are browsing fully!

Matthew

 

[mhch]

To be honest,. I use the unread posts since last visit most often,
BUT I also know there is a structure behing and when I want
to look at something more specific which I vaguely remember,
either I do a search, but that gives me too much answers,
or I go to the appropriate board and I look at the threads in there
based on the Subjects.

 

[Allen Akin]

Ah, yes, but this is not a newsreader! 

I didn't mean to imply that it was.  Just that the basic problem is well-understood and long-solved.

A forum is designed, from the ground up, to be presented with a board structure.

Every forum I use currently has a way to view postings that are new -- just like a newsreader.  It's just a shame to make that harder to do.  As you can tell from the postings here, people really do use it.

Board structure is great if you're casually browsing a forum that's new to you, or if you're searching for something that the organization helps you find.  And, if everyone rigorously adheres to the structure when they post, and you carefully move threads when the conversation changes, and users are absolutely sure that there are some topics they're not interested in reading, then it can speed up the process of reading the board regularly.

But for me, at least, I like to scan everything that goes on here.  You can never tell when something interesting is going to pop up in a place you didn't expect.  People have useful things to say even in topic areas that you might not have thought in advance would be valuable.  Comments from certain people are almost always worth reading, no matter which board they're posting in.  Sometimes a flurry of activity on a particular topic is a good indication that you should check it out, even if the subject or board description doesn't look promising.

I have a feeling that a lot of members have experience using newsreaders, and that's where the reliance on the "Recent Posts" and "UNREAD POSTS since last visit" features may be coming from.

Or it could be that using those features is faster and easier than searching a board listing for certain icons, then clicking on each board in turn, then scanning the topic lists, then clicking on each topic in turn, ...

As you get older, you also appreciate interfaces that are less likely to induce repetitive stress problems.  Using lots of mouse motion and clicks to do even the simplest tasks may make them easy to learn and remember, but for someone familiar with the board, after a while it just gets to be a chore.

If Festool designed forum software, wouldn't it have plenty of features to satisfy experts and professionals, as well as good basic functionality and safety for novices?

By the way, those features were not always so reliable on newsreaders of old!

I don't recall having that sort of problem with them.  But I don't really have any problem with the same feature on this forum, either.  I'm just disappointed that a useful feature is being dropped.

Allen

 

[bruegf]

I'd love to see "unread posts since last visit".  Delphi forums had this feature and its very convenient.   

In lieu of that it would be nice to see a lists of threads that have recent posts instead of seeing every post of every thread in the "Recent Posts" section.

Fred

 

[Dave Rudy]

        Well , yeah there is a function called All Unread Topics, I use it everyday. I am using it right now. I know that it is different than Unread Posts Since Last Visit, and also different than Recent Posts.  The feature called Unread Posts Since Last Visit does what we both described.    And the feature called All Unread Topics brings up  everything that you have not read before regardless of visits.

Seth,

Does "All unread posts" have NO LIMIT to the number, or is it, like "recent posts" from the home page, limited to 100?  I am not sure I completely understood Matthew, but if I read it right, it doesn't help if it has been longer than 2 days since I read the last post.

Thanks

Dave

 

[Dave Rudy]

OK.  Just answered my own question -- it does work.  Including old posts that I never read (from last year!) I have some 35 pages of em.

Oh boy.  This feature may be even better than I wanted -- be careful what you ask for.

:-\

 

[iggy07]

As stated earlier, I use 'Unread posts since last visit'. Thank you for including it in the poll!

I sincerely hope this feature does not go away! It works for me just the way I want it to.

Yes, I understand that if I don't read everything on this visit, it will not show up next time. That's what "since last visit" means!

Most often I didn't read it because I didn't want to read it. If I know I've been busy lately and want to go back and review in more detail, I always have that option (although I rarely do this except for a special topic).

To the best of my knowledge, I never miss anything I want to see using this strategy. If I did, I imagine I'd come across threads mid-stream that were started, and went on without me. This never happens, as far as I can tell.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

iggy