When will be released corded systainer saw?

[Svar]

Mains (power) adapter would bear serious obstacles. As it has been said numerous times, a feasible sized/dimensioned adapter & transformer and cable would be highly limited in possible amp/ current draw. It works with small sanders, Festool has shown that and offers the corresponding product. Other manufacturers have shown that it works with crimping/ press tools, lighting solutions and other low amp/ current draw tools.

Metabo HPT 36V Brushless 10in Table Saw runs from a fairly small 2000W adapter. The cord on the 36V side is not too thick either. Surely much smaller CSC SYS 50 can do the same. To be fair, that was 110V adapter, 220V will be slightly larger.
I think it should be the future of power tools. Tools/motors are the same around the world. You'll only need your local 240/220/120/100V charger or adapter.

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[mino]

Accepting the points about batteries, don't they already have the TS60K motor, which is 1500W and mains powered, and even takes the same size blade as the CSC SYS 50. It's basically doing the same thing? The voltage conversion would then only be needed for the electronics, which is low-powered and a much easier proposition.

I expect quite a few people (like me) are put off from the big investment needed for batteries that probably have a much shorter lifespan than the table saw.

The TS 60K is running at 110V. Not 36V. That is a third of the current right there.

That and the TS 60 motor not really being 1500W, it has higher peaks apparently - why it was denied a PlugIt. I would guess both the TS 60K and the CSC have load peaks/transients easily in the 3000 Watt range. As mentioned, no way to get this in a compact form factor.

Plus, having an AC-DC converter with about the 2-3 kW peak capability needed, you may just as well build a dedicated AC motor. Would be actualy easier/cheaper.

EDIT:

Metabo HPT 36V Brushless 10in Table Saw runs from a fairly small 2000W adapter. Surely much smaller CSC SYS 50 can do the same.

Noone is saying it cannot be done. The point is it cannot be done at a sensible size/cost and without compromising the tools when battery operated. By the way, that HPT adapter is positively huge. And that is only 2000W (possibly 4000W peak ?)

HPT designed most /all ?/ their tools with the limited AC-DC setup already in mind. That means capping their performance inevitably.*) To them, the trade-off was worth it. Good. But they are neither a top-end niche maker, not a smaller/niche player who needs to think how to recoup R&D costs from way smaller sales volumes.

For a fact I know how much it would cost to make a two (yes, two as Festool uses 18V setup so two independent power supplies would be needed) power supplies in the 70A@18V range to not trip when a battery would not. About $200 per piece, so about $ 400 on cost only. A friend was developing something recently for a small series production (2k pieces) and that is the ballpark of the *lower* quotes he got. Giving about $600-$800 retail price for a set. Considering that the CSC with a pack of 8Ah packs will last several days of small trim work, a week+ of artisan work, I just do not see how it is worth it. It is not a jobsite carpentry saw for a start, so types of workloads it will see are way lighter compared to that HPT jobsite one.

my 2c

PS:
*) unlike a switching power supply, a battery is self-load-shedding by not being a "hard" current source, this means that a battery pack has no issue providing/handling/attenuating load transients "automagically". An AC-DC converter (without a battery included, or a huge and heavy capacitive coil) cannot take advatage of this so needs to be way over-build OR the tools must have a software current load cap to prevent overloading the inverter. one way the thing needs to be ridiculously huge/overbuilt, other way the battery operation of the tool has to be capped in some way. Can be done. Absolutely. But no "free lunch" on this to be had.

 

[Svar]

Noone is saying it cannot be done. The point is it cannot be done at a sensible size/cost and without compromising the tools when battery operated. By the way, that HPT adapter is positively huge. And that is only 2000W (possibly 4000W peak ?)

Huge??? Its less than 20cm long, roughly the size of a battery. Retails for about as much as a single battery too. How is this not a sensible size/cost? Sure, for a compact drill it's big, but for a semi-stationary 30 kg table saw or other large tools it's absolutely reasonable.
What user functions does it compromise? Have you run that saw on both the adapter and battery? What was your user experience with it? Perhaps [member=25351]rst[/member] can pitch in.

 

[mino]

Noone is saying it cannot be done. The point is it cannot be done at a sensible size/cost and without compromising the tools when battery operated. By the way, that HPT adapter is positively huge. And that is only 2000W (possibly 4000W peak ?)

Huge??? Its less than 20cm long, roughly the size of a battery. Retails for about as much as a single battery too. How is this not a sensible size/cost? Sure, for a compact drill it's big, but for a semi-stationary 30 kg table saw or other large tools it's absolutely reasonable.
What user functions does it compromise? Have you run that saw on both the adapter and battery? What was your user experience with it? Perhaps [member=25351]rst[/member] can pitch in.

I did not design the saw. But we all share the same physics. So:
Presuming the PSU is indeed limited to 2000W (peak), that is a pretty significant limitation so the tool firmware must be capping power excursions way beyond what the batteries could handle otherwise. Now, the HPT folks very likely built the saw with this already in mind - i.e. they limited the load currents already in designing the motor.

Now, nowhere did I say it is not a good saw. It most likley is.
I will note one thing - however counter-intuitive - the smaller/lighter the saw blade the more difficult it is for a saw to handle heavy loads. The CSC blade has, approximately, 1/3 (!) of the physical momentum of the HPT saw blade. The lower the momentum, the less the saw can depend on the momentun of the blade and the more the electronics needs to increase the power input for the blade to not slow down on a knot etc. Everything being equal (it is not), this alone means the HPT saw can get away with about 1/2 the peak/transient current capability as compared to the CSC. And it is just one parameter at that.

All this is a bit OT though.

On to the original topic, I will state do not hold your breath. There is unlikely to be any systainer mains powered saw. Nor any battery adapter per the late discussion.

What I can see, though, is an update of the CS 50 using the CSC 50 tech.

 

[Svar]

Now, nowhere did I say it is not a good saw. It most likley is.

That was my point exactly.
We went from: "The point is it cannot be done at a sensible size/cost and without compromising the tools when battery operated."
To: Metabo engineers did manage to make a good saw at sensible size/cost and without compromising the tools when battery operated.
I'm sure Festool engineers could have replicated that success.

I will note one thing - however counter-intuitive - the smaller/lighter the saw blade the more difficult it is for a saw to handle heavy loads. The CSC blade has, approximately, 1/3 (!) of the physical momentum of the HPT saw blade. The lower the momentum, the less the saw can depend on the momentun of the blade and the more the electronics needs to increase the power input for the blade to not slow down on a knot etc. Everything being equal (it is not), this alone means the HPT saw can get away with about 1/2 the peak/transient current capability as compared to the CSC. And it is just one parameter at that.

It also has smaller diameter (less torque required) and thinner kerf. When cutting through a knot we don't know how much it's due to momentum and how much due to motor torque. In practice, I often put 7.25" thin blade on my 10" saw exactly because it cuts through hard and knotty stock so much easier.

 

[jeh]

What I can see, though, is an update of the CS 50 using the CSC 50 tech.

From what I have heard it is impossible since there is not a ground connection.

 

[euwood]

If there is...

Festool TSC 55, plunge-cut saw (cordless)
Festool TS 55, plunge-cut saw (corded)

Why not...

Festool CSC SYS 50, table saw (cordless)
Festool CS SYS 50, table saw (corded)

 

[mino]

If there is...

Festool TSC 55, plunge-cut saw (cordless)
Festool TS 55, plunge-cut saw (corded)

Why not...

Festool CSC SYS 50, table saw (cordless)
Festool CS SYS 50, table saw (corded)

What I had in mind is more the robotic movement module being "ported" to a CS 50 series saw. There is no point in a "super portable" corded saw. The CS 50 is pretty portable as it is.

The CS 70 market I see eventually replaced by a TKS 80 mk2 and the rest going to Erika. The only thing really going for it now is the pull function. But there will stay a market for something in between the TKS and the CSC 50 for static shop use that should switch to 168 blades as well. A CS50 mk2, retaining the chassis but moving to a 168 blade and taking over the CSC 50 robotic module should do well on the market.

 

[euwood]

When will Festool release the corded systainer saw?

If there is:
Festool CSC SYS 50, table saw (cordless)

Why not also have:
Festool CS SYS 50, table saw (corded)

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It should be as simple to do as it is...
Festool TSC 55, plunge-cut saw (cordless)
Festool TS 55, plunge-cut saw (corded)

(Some people talked in this discussion thread about saw stop feature, that requires cord (ground). Festool CSC SYS 50, table saw doesnt have either saw stop feature, so that is another discussion. Of course it is super nice feature...

Festool TS 60 KEBQ-Plus-FS (plunge cut saw) has its own KickbackStop feature. Is it possible to use that tecnology also in the table saw? It doesn break the blade and doesnt need any cartridge so it is cheaper, faster and easier for the user/customer...

This may be little bit off topic but... It would be nice also see festool Kapex miter saw, that can be stored inside systainer!

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[luvmytoolz]

There is no point in a "super portable" corded saw. The CS 50 is pretty portable as it is.

For most people yes I'd agree, but for people who are very space challenged like me that don't have floorspace for another machine, the SYS 50 is a godsend!

I would absolutely pay good money for a corded SYS 50 that is unobtrusive when not in use and takes very little time and space to setup.

 

[onocoffee]

I agree that a SYS50 would be great in a small shop - or even a "regular" sized shop but you wanted the saw for finer detail work.

I've wondered what it might take to create some kind of conversion "battery" that would convert AC to DC and power the saw - like the main power converter for the ETSC sanders? I don't know enough about electronics to even attempt such a thing (and presume that it would void the warranty) but presume there should be a way?

 

[luvmytoolz]

[member=82312]onocoffee[/member] The basic AC to DC conversion with "adaptor batteries" is simple enough, either 18VDC or 36VDC.

The issue I think might be in the smarts employed in the circuitry for battery management that could present a problem.

 

[Allano]

There is a third alternative, which hasn't been mentioned, but has annoyed me since I saw the cordless shop vac:

When using batteries to power a stationary tool, why not design that tool so it is also a battery charger?

• If you can't plug in, it runs off batteries.
• When plugged in and not in use, it charges the batteries.
• When plugged in and in use, it draws power from the batteries - perhaps with some help from charger if the charging circuit is adequately able to protect itself against surges in the power draw.

Such a tool will also be able to act as a mobile battery charger for other tools if it has low intermittency usage so it charges more than it draws.

If it has high intermittency use, you may still need an external charger and an extra set of batteries if the internal charger can't keep up. But that is not any worse than the situation now.

 

[mino]

For the CSC it makes little sense to make it a couple kilos heavier. And bigger (!). It is tool.

With the vacs, that was a properly missed opportunity for "something new" indeed.

Wondering if some patent troll did not patent that idea and is now trying to cash in ... kinda strange no one is doing something soo obvious. Thinking of Apple patenting a "rounded rectangle" shape for a phone an all that .. all funny until suits show up with the money to burn on lawfare.