Which one is stronger?
- Thread starter rjwz28
- Start date
"Tim, my rails and stiles wil be 3/4" x 2 1/2". I can't do a traditional mortise and tenon. what now?"
If the Domino is your only option, you might want a hybrid approach and use the widest possible Domino cut and make your own full size tenons to match the cut (or even overlapping Domino cuts to make as wide as possible).
If the Domino is your only option, you might want a hybrid approach and use the widest possible Domino cut and make your own full size tenons to match the cut (or even overlapping Domino cuts to make as wide as possible).
ccarrolladams
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When you shared that your stiles and rails are trade 1 x 3 then you answered your own question.
A mortise should be about 1/3 the thickness of the stock. Trade 1"=3/4" planed=18-19mm for which a 6mm thick tendon is recommended.
The XK Domino 700 only uses cutters 8mm up to 14mm.
Many folks consider trade 1" stock too light for anything but smaller cabinet doors. If you were using trade 5/4 x 4" then you could use use the longer 10mm Dominoes which work with the XL Domino 700. Those are longer than the 10mm Dominoes for the Domino 500.
My experience has been that simply using more Dominoes close together in inappropriate thin stock does not improve the strength of the joint.
A mortise should be about 1/3 the thickness of the stock. Trade 1"=3/4" planed=18-19mm for which a 6mm thick tendon is recommended.
The XK Domino 700 only uses cutters 8mm up to 14mm.
Many folks consider trade 1" stock too light for anything but smaller cabinet doors. If you were using trade 5/4 x 4" then you could use use the longer 10mm Dominoes which work with the XL Domino 700. Those are longer than the 10mm Dominoes for the Domino 500.
My experience has been that simply using more Dominoes close together in inappropriate thin stock does not improve the strength of the joint.
Rob
Answer to your original question which one is stronger. It has to be the second option as all of the weight of the glass will be resting on the bottom rail, that is why all door manufacturers make them with side stiles the full length of the door and rails suspended from the stiles.
Meatman
Answer to your original question which one is stronger. It has to be the second option as all of the weight of the glass will be resting on the bottom rail, that is why all door manufacturers make them with side stiles the full length of the door and rails suspended from the stiles.
Meatman
ccarrolladams said:
Okay now I'm thinking that I need to change the size of my door frame. I may need to go to 1" x 3"? The total size of the door outside dimensions are 20" x 66" with the glass being roughly 15" x 61". And I like your idea of making wider mortises with multiple plunges and fabricating custom tenons.
tiralie
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rjwz28 said:
Rob
Going thicker with your rails and stiles will definitely help. 1" will be better, 3/4" is too light for that size door never mind with a glass insert. Remember that you have about 13lbs of glass (1/8") resting on the bottom rail.
You can make your own (floating) tenons wider than dominoes and cut deeper mortises than you can get with 500 with a homemade jig and router. It's a PIA but the doors will be stronger and you'll be happy you did it.
Tim
rjwz28 said:
Yea, I think so. Especially if it's not possible to have a mid rail. Just think about it. How easy is it to flex a 2 1/2 x 3/4 x 66 board? Pretty easy. Think about how spindly that thing will be during glue up with no panel. You'll need a dead flat surface to clamp on. And don't put too much pressure on those clamps.
So what's the problem? If you go thicker and wider it's going to mess up the look of things, right? You don't need bigger rails and stiles for the other stuff. And the faces won't be flush with the other doors and drawer fronts. Bummer.
I think you could stay with the sizes you have if you are willing to go with a mid-rail. Or maybe two mid-rails. That would stiffen up the whole thing.
Plus, make the rabbets for the glass after glue up with a rabbeting bit in a router. And keep the rabbet out of the mortises. Make the rabbets as small as possible and go with strips on the back of the door to hold the glass.
Plus make the rails, at least at the top and the bottom, wider so you can put in two dominos.
In my own pantry I've got three 18x60 doors with two mid rails. The rails and stiles are 2-5/8 x 3/4. The joints are single 6x40 dominos. That's 8 joints and 8 dominos per door. They've been in service for over 3 years. The panels are 1/4" mdf that is not glued in the dados. The doors are not cope and stick. I stopped the dados for the panels in the mortises on the stiles.
Okay, if it's going to help a lot I will be willing to put a mid rail the same width as the outside ones. Will this help a lot? I think it will. And yes, I was going to rabbet after glue up. Now with 2 separate glasses it might be better also?
What you think?
What you think?
ccarrolladams
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Rob, my business is custom fabrication of cabinets and associated products for wholesale clients. It is our clients who retail the cabinets to home owners and arrange the installation. Of course most of these designers and installers have taken classes from me that I have been teaching since 1959.
They bring me anything from beauty drawings and a floor plan of the rooms where the cabinets will go to detailed CAD working drawings complete with instructions for my various CNC machines. Only when one of these professional clients asks for advice do I provide it. If my sense is that a particular design is actively unsafe, I drop the hint when I insist on a signature to the instructions.
If you were to bring me a purchase order for 66" tall cabinet doors with glass instead of wood for the panel with the requirement that the stiles and rails be less than 25mm thick, before scheduling fabrication I would request you sign the disclaimer. It is hard to tell from your sketches, but it looks like those are to be relatively narrow doors. In my experience a narrow door still needs to be robust enough to withstand stressed based on the height.
Because although on a given project the height of door will vary and yet they normally want to look as if built from a coordinated design long ago I began milling my face frame, edge material, cabinet door stiles and rails and drawer front material in-house from rough material. The shop I built in early 2010 has a Baker sawmill-style horizontal power-fed bandsaw, in addition to a large slider table saw, jointer, thickness planer and tilting arbor shaper.
I want to be able to have the thickness of these parts vary subtlety so they can be no thicker than necessary to appear the same. If these door are going to lap over the opening, I would suggest a rabbet on the inner edges so installed they appear thinner than actual when closed. If the doors are to work as a pair, meeting in the middle like French doors, then I would not rabbet those meeting edges. The minimum thickness at the inside edges would be 24mm for a 66" or 1677mm. That is not a prime 32 System number, so I would suggest 1664mm or 1996mm, which are. Of course our CNC equipment can deal with inch increments if needed. With such doors, if the panel is wood, often it would be stick and cope, eliminating mortising entirely. With the weight of glass I would want 8mm tendons in each corner closer to the inner rather than outer edge so as to not interfere with the rabbets.
Making such tendons conventionally is tedious, so is expensive. The length of Domino 500 tendons is not long enough. The XL Domino 700 will make 8mm mortises deep enough. If a stock Domino is not long enough Festool will be selling long Dominoes which can be custom cut to required length.
Oh, yes, I would never fabricate such a door with the rails running full width. Rails need to be inside the stiles, so the stiles can be full length.
They bring me anything from beauty drawings and a floor plan of the rooms where the cabinets will go to detailed CAD working drawings complete with instructions for my various CNC machines. Only when one of these professional clients asks for advice do I provide it. If my sense is that a particular design is actively unsafe, I drop the hint when I insist on a signature to the instructions.
If you were to bring me a purchase order for 66" tall cabinet doors with glass instead of wood for the panel with the requirement that the stiles and rails be less than 25mm thick, before scheduling fabrication I would request you sign the disclaimer. It is hard to tell from your sketches, but it looks like those are to be relatively narrow doors. In my experience a narrow door still needs to be robust enough to withstand stressed based on the height.
Because although on a given project the height of door will vary and yet they normally want to look as if built from a coordinated design long ago I began milling my face frame, edge material, cabinet door stiles and rails and drawer front material in-house from rough material. The shop I built in early 2010 has a Baker sawmill-style horizontal power-fed bandsaw, in addition to a large slider table saw, jointer, thickness planer and tilting arbor shaper.
I want to be able to have the thickness of these parts vary subtlety so they can be no thicker than necessary to appear the same. If these door are going to lap over the opening, I would suggest a rabbet on the inner edges so installed they appear thinner than actual when closed. If the doors are to work as a pair, meeting in the middle like French doors, then I would not rabbet those meeting edges. The minimum thickness at the inside edges would be 24mm for a 66" or 1677mm. That is not a prime 32 System number, so I would suggest 1664mm or 1996mm, which are. Of course our CNC equipment can deal with inch increments if needed. With such doors, if the panel is wood, often it would be stick and cope, eliminating mortising entirely. With the weight of glass I would want 8mm tendons in each corner closer to the inner rather than outer edge so as to not interfere with the rabbets.
Making such tendons conventionally is tedious, so is expensive. The length of Domino 500 tendons is not long enough. The XL Domino 700 will make 8mm mortises deep enough. If a stock Domino is not long enough Festool will be selling long Dominoes which can be custom cut to required length.
Oh, yes, I would never fabricate such a door with the rails running full width. Rails need to be inside the stiles, so the stiles can be full length.
rjwz28 said:
I think it would be better. And I would go ahead and put 4 hinges per door. And if you need to hold the rails to 2-1/2x3/4 for the sake of uniformity then use the wide setting and plunge to the full 28mm depth. Then make your own tenon stock. I read somewhere that smooth homemade loose tenons yielded a somewhat stronger joint because of the glue surface.
If a contemporary touch would work and you really need the full lite why not look into made to order metal door frame parts. You can order custom sizes online.
