Which Sander is Best for Me?

[AlexThePalex]

To be honest, I would have never bought the Festool RO150 either if I didn't get a deal on a 1 time used 2nd hand model for half price.

Festool's pricing remains ridiculous.

Normally, if you pay twice the price, you expect twice the performance/endurance. Even though Festool has excellent performance (mostly), they are in no way twice as good as their competitors. When it comes to a pure cost/performance balance, Festool is actually pretty bad compared to all it's competitors.

Only reason I chose for the Rotex is because I wanted the 125 model and not the 150 model. And I did a lot of research before deciding on which machine I would get, and as it stands, Festool is the ONLY manufacturer to make a dual action sander for 125 mm paper.  It's different with the 150, there's at least 3 models from Bosch, Makita and Festool on the market, but not for the 125.

So I was prepared to shell out 300 euros for a second hand model of the 125 (costs 450 new), but I couldn't get my hands on one. Frustrated by that, because  I needed a sander badly, my old one had died on me, I saw an ad for a 150 and thought "What the heck, let's try it anyway, I'm not gonna get it for a mere 275 euros" (550 new), but to my lucky surprise I got a call the same day and had the machine in my hand the next. Only the systainer was missing, well, I couldn't care less.

But if I hadn't gotten this one in a million opportunity, I'd probably would have settled for a 125 single action model by Makita or Metabo of about 175 euro.

 

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I am a bit late to this discussion and it look like M8 has made his choice and from the descriptions it sounds good.  I'll only add to this because I have both the RO150 and the RAS 115 and I work on boats so I think I have some relevant experience.  In general sanding fiberglass is a lot tougher than sanding wood.  Working on fiberglass is just not the same as wood.  And the type of work that M8 described is pretty broad.  Really two completely different jobs with different tool needs.  Besides tool recommendations I would also suggest looking into some chemical strippers to remove the bulk of the bottom paint. Like Peel-Away. 

I did a bottom job similar to what M8 described (more involved actually with a peel of old barrier coat) and I found the RAS 115 indispensable.  It is by far more aggressive than the RO 150 and for fairing out the fiberglass and epoxy work on the bottom the RO 150 is simply not up to the task even with 24 or 36 paper in rotary mode.  The RAS 115 is many times faster.  It is as powerful at this task as a grinder like the Makita 4-1/2.  And with the variable speed you can back it off to do more careful work.  But the RAS 115 is also totally unsuited to the sort of finish work M8 described on the topsides (that's the part of the hull above the waterline = the pretty part).  It is far too aggressive and will never do to get a quality finish.  For that the RO 150 is the indispensable one.  They are simply different machines and there is very little if any overlap in application.  If you need to remove stock (or paint) rapidly or need to grind down stuff like fiberglass and epoxy work the RAS 115 is best.  For smoothing of rough wood stock (and any wood is easier to sand than fiberglass) or do quality finish work the RO 150 is best. 

For dust collection the RO 150 is better with near 100% collection and don't forget the hepa system in the CT vacuum - I have the 22.  And the dust generated from the work on fiberglass is vey nasty.  Like asbestos.  The RAS 115 dust collection is not as complete as the RO 150 but once you get the hang of handling the shroud (not very hard) it is excellent.  Probably better than 90%. 

The Bosch sounds like a good substitute for the RO 150 but if you need the aggressive capability of the RAS 115 I don't think it could match.  If you patch blister holes and gauges on the boat bottom with something like West epoxy with a 406 silica filler (what I would use on deeper repairs) you need the power the RAS 115 has to fair the patches back (unless you are really good to start with at getting them smooth when doing the filling).  And I don't know of anything like the RAS 115 (basically a grinder) with dust collection except some of the high end air stuff?  Not sure about that.   

Also a big part of the value of the Festool system for me is the CT22.  But there are others (eg Bosch) that may give similar performance. 

You can see the bottom job I did here:
http://dan.pfeiffer.net/10m/bottom.htm

Dan Pfeiffer

 

[jspicer1010]

Will the Bosch dust port connect directly to the Festool 1&1/6" hose or is some type of adapter needed?

 

[wnagle]

I think part of the problem people have with Festool pricing is this. 

Alex, you stated if the tool is twice the price, you expect twice the performance.  That expectation is the problem.  You can pay twice the price for any number of features or reasons that are specific to you and your uses and desires.  Example: Nickao paid more for the festool because he liked the proprietary sand paper better.  Not a "twice as good"  sander but a feature he liked and was willing to pay for.  Expecting twice the performance for twice the price is unrealistic, especially the higher the quality of the tool. 

You can buy a car for 10,000 or 100,000.  Both get me to work in 30 mins.  Expecting to get there in 3 mins because I paid ten times as much for the 100,000 dollar car would be unrealistic.

Bottom line is the pricing and quality and features of the tools are what they are.  Each of us decides on what we like best as consumers.  If festool doesn't have the value that is right for you or me, that's our choice and not really a flaw with Festool.  It just means OUR needs may be for something else.  You would never sell me a Corvette for 70,000 dollars but that doesn't mean GM is flawed.  Just means Corvettes are of little value to me.

 

[nickao]

Yep Dan that is why I recommended the 8" Fein Rotary sander. It takes off material like the RAS, but has the dust collection of the Rotex. And of course that 8" covers A LOT more ground than a little 4.5 inch or even a 6" for a hull application.

The reason I had to go the Fein is because the Rotex just was not strong enough and going  to a 4.5" pad is just way to small for me, it just would not cover enough ground. Still after using a friends RAS for awhile  I will purchase a it for the tight spots I may get into.

When I have time I will try to show a demo between the Rotex and Fein 8" Rotary and Fein 8" orbital(still waiting on that).

 

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Nickao wrote:
"When I have time I will try to show a demo
between the Rotex and Fein 8" Rotary and
Fein 8" orbital (still waiting on that)."

I would like to see that.  The RO 150 dual mode is really great but for something like fiberglass work even in rotary mode it's just not aggressive enough.  The speed of 0-650 RPM or so?  The RAS 115 is 0-3000.  I imagine there is a similar difference between the Fein 8" random orbit and the Fein 8" rotary?  And a corresponding difference in aggressiveness.  But I would need to try them to know so your demo would be really useful.  Can you run a soft pad on the Fein rotary to better conform to hull curvature?  That would matter with such a large pad.  The dust collection capacity is compelling as well.  But again, the 115 does pretty well with this once you get the hang of it.  There is also a Festool RAS180 (7") but not in US.  But I have no problem mixing brands.  And I imagine the Fein would do fine with the Festool vacuum.  And maybe the Fein is larger and heavier and harder to hold overhead but if it works faster the difference may be moot.  Am I correct that the Fein 8" rotary is not variable speed?  I find that really useful in the Festool RAS 115 though I would not have thought about it if it didn't have it.

Dan Pfeiffer

 

[nickao]

All the Feins are variable speed.

I attached a pdf and as you can see they really stress that these are for boat application first and foremost.

I will never get a soft pad as they are 135.00 and I always want the hardest pad possible.

http://www.feinus.com/p/pdf/dust-free_sanding_brochure_p.pdf

I see no reason why Festool does not offer through the pad collection on the RAS. Feins older model used a shroud to collect dust and it was horrible. The through the pad makes all the difference in the world. That would instantly make the RAS a better at collecting dust and probably a much better seller.

Any sander works with any collector so yes the Fein works with the CT's or any other collector.

I only use wood not fiberglass and even the rotex for my application is not enough for some of the woods so I can see where it is less than perfect for fiberglass as well. To me it seems one should have even better dust collection with fiberglass than working with wood.

 

[m8]

Ok, the new comments have made me rethink my decision.

 

[BMH]

The correct answer is that you are going to need different sanders for this project. For the hull you will need the Fein 8 inch and probably the RAS 115 for the tough spots. You are going to need more specialize sanders for the top deck and the interior. I have discovered in the past few months that high quality sand paper and a good vacuum device make all of the difference in how good a job will turn out and how hard it is on you.

A sail boat is a expensive toy that require a lot of maintenance by the time you will finish all of the project you have plan it will time to re-sand the hull again. Buy the best tools for the job so you have some time left to sail it.

Bruce

 

[m8]

After a long debate I've made a few decisions.  I greatly appreciate everyone's responses and all have been extremely helpful.  I am impressed by the kindness that everyone has shown towards me.  In the original post I was looking for a sander that could do everything with the understanding that they're probably wasn't one.  I was looking at the RO 150 but was concerned that it wouldn't be powerful enough to handle striping paint and preparing the fiberglass for paint on the bottom of hull.  After reading the responses it looks as though my original concern is true.  Below I've listed my thoughts on the various Sanders

RAS 115:  Very powerful but too small for removing a large area of paint.  Would work well for fairing fiberglass and preparing it for the next sander.  Instead of using this sander I will use a pneumatic high speed angle grinder with 1" or 2" 3M Roloc Pads.  The pneumatic angle grinder will be used to grind/pop blisters and after filling the blisters with fiberglass and epoxy will be used to provide general fairing.

RO 150:  Excellent sander with good qualities but not powerful and large enough to remove bottom paint.  Looks as though it will work well for final preparation of barrier coat.  Instead of the RO 150 I've decided to purchase the Bosch 1250 DEVS. 

Fein 8" Rotary Sander:  Powerful and large, hopefully not too powerful and too large.  I still have fears of removing too much substrate.  I'm leaning towards this sander to remove the bottom paint/barrier coat and then following up with the Bosch 1250 DEVS.  I've thought of using the Fein 8" Random Orbital Sander but don't know if it will be powerful enough to quickly remove the paint.

So with the information below here is a short version of my plan:

Below Water Line:
- Haul vessel
- Pressure Wash
- Use a scratch all to mark location of blisters
- Pop blisters with pneumatic angle grinder
- Apply paint stripper
- Scrape paint stripper and paint off the bottom of the hull
- Remove remaining paint and fair hull with Fein 8" Rotary Sander
- Follow rough fairing with Bosch 1250 DEVS
- Apply barrier coat and bottom paint

Above Water Line:
- Pressure Wash
- Fair out gouges/scratches with combination of pneumatic angle grinder and Bosch 1250 DEVS
- Apply filler
- Fair hull with 1250
- Apply high build primer
- Hand and board sand hull
- Apply paint

List of tools I will be purchasing:
- Fein 8" Rotary Sander
- Bosch 1250 DEVS
- Pneumatic Angle Grinder
- Vacuum

Remaining Questions:

- Fein Vacuum or Festool Vacuum or Cheap Shop Vac?  All work will be done outside.

- Does another company like Klingspor produce sand paper for the Fein 8" Rotary sander and also for the Bosch 1250 DEVS?  I know that they produce paper for the Fein 8" Random Orbital sander but it looks as though the hole pattern is different.

- Where would be the best place to purchase the above power tools?

- Is it really cheaper to do the work on my own then to have someone else do it for me?  As in a previous post I said my line of work allows me to have at least a month straight off of work so time is not a problem.  As of now I spend most of my time off using and working on my boat and fully understand the amount of time and money that goes into it.  I have no problem doing the work and I enjoy doing it but if the cost difference is of small difference then its not really worth it to me because I always have other projects to do.

As always thanks for the advice and I look forward to hearing everyone's opinions and suggestions.

 

[bruegf]

Many years ago I ground out over 1000 small blisters on an O'Day 28.  Mine were small enough that I ground them out using a 120 degree countersink on a cordless drill and filled and faired with West System epoxy and micro fiber filler.  While very time consuming overall cost was a fraction of what it would have been if I had hired it out.

If you have the time and don't mind the work, it will be much cheaper to do it yourself.

Fred

 

[John Langevin]

I think you are on the right track. However if your have a compressor of sufficient capacity you should consider a pneumatic rotary sander (festool or other) sinc e it may be half the cost of the Fein. I would definitely recommend either the Fein or Festool (I have a CT22) vac for a couple of reasons:

High quality, reliability and quietness
Variable speed (critical when removing finish or fairing epoxy)
For Festool - available accessories: boom arm, cleaning set, compatibility with a cyclone setup to minimize bag usage, excellent abrasive selection
If you went pneumatic with the Festool their 3 in one hose assembly would be a big advantage I think

 

[m8]

I'm leaning towards the Festool CT 22, I just have to fit it into the budget.