Whole house renovation/cabinet building without a table saw?
- Thread starter ddr90036
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I got rid of my 10" 220v cabinet saw and have the SS contractor saw for the rail and stile work, and use the TS55 and parallel guides by Festool to break down the plywood. I make a lot of 8' tall cabinets for closet renovations and use face frames in my work. Even my SS is collecting a lot of dust now that I made the Paulk table. I haven't graduated to the LR32 system yet, I use the Sommerfeld router table with tongue and groove connections for the face frames. Once I can afford it, I want to get the Domino 500 for face frame construction, looks much simpler to me. Good luck in the reno and provide some photos as you go along. Bill
More awesome feedback and I have to say I like the idea of the Mafell Erika...however I don't like yet another learning curve while managing the renovation, subcontractors, building things and moving my family cross country. Somewhere in there I'm supposed to make a living too.... 
Max Fracas
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I love having both a table saw and a track saw. My table saw is a a 30 year old Craftsman contractor saw. I put an Incra LS positioner on it and am very happy with the accuracy I get. As others have said, for some operations it's much faster than the track saw/guide rail alternative. You can find saws like mine on Craigslist at very reasonable prices.
sancho57
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I found with the parallel guides and a few jigs, you can build cabinets just as fast and in some cases faster then using a table saw. Especially if you are a one man show.
As far as ripping rails and styles, Tom and a few others have posted some easy to make jigs which can cut lumber to correct measurements accurately and repeatable.
Where things tend to slow down for some is during assembly. I just domino and screw the cases together. Easy Peasy, its all about work flow, have your shop drawings, cut list drawn accurately.
Remember you can gang rip ply with a track saw, including trimming the factory edge. Try that with a table saw.
Kitchen cabs are just boxes with shelves thats it nothing more or less.
Dood,ya rip the ply to width, router the groove for the back panel using 1010 and edge guide, edge band the face of the ply, LR 32 for shelf holes, finish the surfaces, set on MFT, cut to length, assemble.
I dont see a need for a table saw for the boxed.
Doors and drawers, lets discuss door, set rail on lumber, joint using track saw and rail. use kapex to cut to rough length, set on Toms shop made jig, rip to width using his jig, etc etc...
I still dont see a need for a tables saw.
Now to be honest, I do have a TS 75 CMS module, so I sort of have a tables saw. But as I described, I wouldnt need it for building a kitchen.
heres a link to Toms jighttp://festoolownersgroup.com/festool-jigs-tool-enhancements/how-i-rip-ff-and-door-pieces/
As far as ripping rails and styles, Tom and a few others have posted some easy to make jigs which can cut lumber to correct measurements accurately and repeatable.
Where things tend to slow down for some is during assembly. I just domino and screw the cases together. Easy Peasy, its all about work flow, have your shop drawings, cut list drawn accurately.
Remember you can gang rip ply with a track saw, including trimming the factory edge. Try that with a table saw.
Kitchen cabs are just boxes with shelves thats it nothing more or less.
Dood,ya rip the ply to width, router the groove for the back panel using 1010 and edge guide, edge band the face of the ply, LR 32 for shelf holes, finish the surfaces, set on MFT, cut to length, assemble.
I dont see a need for a table saw for the boxed.
Doors and drawers, lets discuss door, set rail on lumber, joint using track saw and rail. use kapex to cut to rough length, set on Toms shop made jig, rip to width using his jig, etc etc...
I still dont see a need for a tables saw.
Now to be honest, I do have a TS 75 CMS module, so I sort of have a tables saw. But as I described, I wouldnt need it for building a kitchen.
heres a link to Toms jighttp://festoolownersgroup.com/festool-jigs-tool-enhancements/how-i-rip-ff-and-door-pieces/
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One option might be to buy a TS that has a good fence and is capable of mounting a dado stack, either used or new, then sell it when you are done. The TS would be faster as many have pointed out. And selling afterwards you'll recoup most of your investment especially if you get a used saw. But A SawStop PCS should have a good resell value after only a few hours work.
Know anyone who has a TS they might lend you for the duration of the job? Maybe make a contribution such as give them the dado stack when you're done since you won't have a TS to use it on anyway.
If you're just dead set against using a TS yes it can be done, it will just take a little longer as has been mentioned. As far as having to make multiple setups using the Track Saw vice setting the TS fence once and run everything, both have their downside. Setting the fence on the TS and running multiple pieces of stock will ensure consistency, but could also bring multiple errors if your setup is wrong. But the same can happen with a Track Saw, you could cut three pieces perfect then screw up two or three and what's worse they could be different errors so you end up with three or more pieces with different dimensions. So both have their pros and cons.
I think it will boil down to your tool budget; if time is a factor; and what tools you are most comfortable with using to produce a quality product.
Time, cost, or quality...pick any two but you can't have all three.
Know anyone who has a TS they might lend you for the duration of the job? Maybe make a contribution such as give them the dado stack when you're done since you won't have a TS to use it on anyway.
If you're just dead set against using a TS yes it can be done, it will just take a little longer as has been mentioned. As far as having to make multiple setups using the Track Saw vice setting the TS fence once and run everything, both have their downside. Setting the fence on the TS and running multiple pieces of stock will ensure consistency, but could also bring multiple errors if your setup is wrong. But the same can happen with a Track Saw, you could cut three pieces perfect then screw up two or three and what's worse they could be different errors so you end up with three or more pieces with different dimensions. So both have their pros and cons.
I think it will boil down to your tool budget; if time is a factor; and what tools you are most comfortable with using to produce a quality product.
Time, cost, or quality...pick any two but you can't have all three.
Brian Livingstone
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Hi,
I drank the kool aid. I sold my 10 inch contractors saw, ridged jointer and planer.
I can build cabinets easily with my kapex, ts55 and 1400.
I was looking at the Bosch reaxx saw earlier, could be handy.
Now here is the trick. I order my wood s4s, in whatever width and thickness I need.
Never felt the love for ripping boards to length. Unimpressed with the ridgid jointer.
I am a cabinetmaker. I leave the ripping and planing to others.
Brian
I drank the kool aid. I sold my 10 inch contractors saw, ridged jointer and planer.
I can build cabinets easily with my kapex, ts55 and 1400.
I was looking at the Bosch reaxx saw earlier, could be handy.
Now here is the trick. I order my wood s4s, in whatever width and thickness I need.
Never felt the love for ripping boards to length. Unimpressed with the ridgid jointer.
I am a cabinetmaker. I leave the ripping and planing to others.
Brian
Holmz
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ddr90036 said:
If he is helping you, then for sure buy a table saw.
Dados can be done with a router or MT26.
Probably a router table is most cost effective, if you even need to do dados...
Nothing worse than wrestling a 4x8 onto tablesaw alone, and nothing worse that not being able to do lots of identical cuts but only having a track saw.
(That is 2 ˆnothing worsesˆ)
Naildrivingman
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I'm no track saw expert...So now that disclaimer is out of the way, I will say that I am a track saw believer when it comes to reducing 4x8 to manageable/useable sizes. I personally would do frame stock on a table saw. Dadoes/rabbets in large quantities would also be done on a table saw. If it is one or two cases, I would do them with a router. I think setup and tear down of a dado stack for a few feet of work is not efficient, but for a few hundred feet it is efficient. There is a series of 14 or so vids on YouTube (possibly the same as referenced above) where the individual does all the case work with track and router. It is impressive, but so is his collection of accessories that many may not possess. IMHO, the accessories (parallel guides, edge guides, etc) are what makes the workflow more efficient vs a table saw.
I love my tracksaw but I wouldnt even consider a project that size (or any project for that matter) without a tablesaw. Sure it could be done, but its gonna take much much longer. And the tablesaw gives you unmatched repeatability for rips crosscuts, and makes things square automatically.
If you can afford a tablesaw, 100% YES dont even think about it.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk
If you can afford a tablesaw, 100% YES dont even think about it.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk
"And the tablesaw gives you unmatched repeatability for rips crosscuts, and makes things square automatically."
And so does a TS saw with the parallel guides ! It's no more or less accurate than a table saw with a rip fence. Arguably it'd be faster than a tablesaw because setup time would be much less, and you wouldn't have to build a crosscut sled. How long did it take you to ensure that your blade was parallel to your miter gauge and then adjust the rip fence to those ?
Mind you, we are ONLY talking about frameless / euro constructed cabinets here.
It really all boils down to: do you want to take your tools to the material - or - take your material to the tools.
And so does a TS saw with the parallel guides ! It's no more or less accurate than a table saw with a rip fence. Arguably it'd be faster than a tablesaw because setup time would be much less, and you wouldn't have to build a crosscut sled. How long did it take you to ensure that your blade was parallel to your miter gauge and then adjust the rip fence to those ?
Mind you, we are ONLY talking about frameless / euro constructed cabinets here.
It really all boils down to: do you want to take your tools to the material - or - take your material to the tools.
tjbnwi
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The success of there project is more about the process than the tools.
I build all my casework without a table saw, all the material is processed with my TS-55's.
Set up to cut all the face frame rails and stiles, door rails and stiles, then move on to the sheet goods. I make sure I process a couple of extra rails and stiles incase I blow a to length cut.
Examine all of the edges of the solid lumber, clean up any saw marks prior to assembly. Track saw or table saw, this is a necessary step.
Ron posted a link to my solid lumber process, I know quite a few guys that now use the process, never firing up their table saws.
Tom
I build all my casework without a table saw, all the material is processed with my TS-55's.
Set up to cut all the face frame rails and stiles, door rails and stiles, then move on to the sheet goods. I make sure I process a couple of extra rails and stiles incase I blow a to length cut.
Examine all of the edges of the solid lumber, clean up any saw marks prior to assembly. Track saw or table saw, this is a necessary step.
Ron posted a link to my solid lumber process, I know quite a few guys that now use the process, never firing up their table saws.
Tom
Neal W
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My summer projects include some built ins for my master bedroom and a new vanity for the bathroom. Started the vanity last weekend. On Sunday I brought home three sheets of plywood and almost all of the case pieces cut to size in short order (3 boxes total.
Parallel guides help with the repeatability and set up. This will speed things along a little. Set the parallel guides and go.
I will probably use my table saw (which is a Ryobi bt3000) to do a lot of the ripping of lumber for face frames and door rails and stiles. I'm not real comfortable ripping narrow stock with my TS 55
The guide rail and my 1400 router took care of some dados in the boxes as well
I'll do the assembly with dominoes and pocket screws. The domino makes things go together very nicely
I will also add the TSO guide rail square also moved things along as well. It reduces the amount of time to set up each cut, and it is square. Used it for the first time last weekend. That combined with a "West Virginia engineered" length stop attached to it, made cutting same sized panels quite quick.
I'm not a pro, so I'm not all about speed and profitability. I'm just a weekend warrior who enjoys the journey. Festool makes the journey much more enjoyable.
Parallel guides help with the repeatability and set up. This will speed things along a little. Set the parallel guides and go.
I will probably use my table saw (which is a Ryobi bt3000) to do a lot of the ripping of lumber for face frames and door rails and stiles. I'm not real comfortable ripping narrow stock with my TS 55
The guide rail and my 1400 router took care of some dados in the boxes as well
I'll do the assembly with dominoes and pocket screws. The domino makes things go together very nicely
I will also add the TSO guide rail square also moved things along as well. It reduces the amount of time to set up each cut, and it is square. Used it for the first time last weekend. That combined with a "West Virginia engineered" length stop attached to it, made cutting same sized panels quite quick.
I'm not a pro, so I'm not all about speed and profitability. I'm just a weekend warrior who enjoys the journey. Festool makes the journey much more enjoyable.
Cutting big pieces of solid wood or sheet goods is track saw work. Cutting little pieces of wood is better done on the table saw. Long dados are easier with a router guided by the track. Shorter ones can be done on the table saw - but setup is quicker for the router. Repeat cuts with the track saw are simple with the right jig. Both the track saw and table saw have their place.
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