Woodpeckers PGS vs Status Quo

[wpz]

[member=66126]wpz[/member] wow, that's great! Do you remember the distance between centers for the screws you had to tap for on that? Anyone have a part number for these (M6 threaded?) Festool Grip knobs?

Looking at the Woodpeckers vs TSO, I like the TSO for the square and the parallax-free viewing cursor, but the Woodpeckers is great in that it fits in a Systainer.

Hi [member=22929]worldburger[/member]

The part number for the knobs is 482110, they are used on a lot of festool tools, inluding the OF1400.

I don't know the exact distance of the holes.
There are tapped M6 holes in the GRS-16 and GRS-16PE, so I just used these as a template to drill the holes in the incra track, so that they line up. You can adjust the scales on the incra track by sliding them back and forth until calibrated to your guide rail.
Maybe Hans from [member=61691]TSO_Products[/member] can tell you the exact distance between the holes.

By the way, the TSO TPG has a lot of advantages compared to the thing I cobbled together, such as:
- flipstops
- easier calibration
- suitable for narrow stock (min. width with mine is 40 cm)
- better accuracy and repeatability

I made mine before the TSO TPG was available (it was still being tested at that time I believe).
It is in my view the best PG system for breaking down sheet goods because the TSO guide rail squares are very easy and quick to attach and detach from the rail, without having to recalibrate, unlike the Seneca ones.
Also, for long cuts with the 3m rail I use both squares, but for shorter length cuts with the 1,4m rail I only use 1 and get very square results.

I would love to buy the TPG-50 complete kit, but here in Europe it would cost me about 425€ (compared to the 360$ or 300€ you pay for it in the U.S.A).
Hopefully Festool will at some point produce the TPG under license from TSO as they did with the GRS-16PE, so that it will be more affordable for us Europeans.
I've bought 3 TSO squares (1 was a present for a friend) for about 200€ each, while I can now buy the same Festool one for 105€ each [eek]

Not that they are not worth it, they make life a lot easier and it's also one of those things you only buy once and they last you a lifetime, unlike things with batteries or a lot of moving parts.
But still, It's quite a bit of money, so I make do with my homemade solution for the time being.
(until I have a project with a lot of sheet goods again, then I'll be really tempted [big grin])

wpz

 

[Peter_C]

I have both the WP and the TSO. I originally was excited about the WP because, well, the red, but got quickly frustrated by the taking it apart and putting it away~

Have you seen the updated foam from WP? You might be able to move your foam around to do something similar.

 

[wpz]

Personally I don't really see the benefit of storing parallel guides in a systainer, I just store them in the rail bag with the guide rails (who also don't fit in a systainer).
The fact that the Woodpecker ones are in several pieces to store them in a systainer I see more as a downside, as each connection is a possible extra point for error.

Love the red colour though [smile] (although some of my squares' red colour anodizing has started fading)

wpz

 

[TSO_Products]

[member=66447]JimmyB1775[/member]

I have the seneca guides and a TSO square and made a cheap selfmade version of the TSO parallel guides:https://www.festoolownersgroup.com/...-guide-rail-square-video/msg545630/#msg545630

Of course, if money is no objection you could always go for the full TSO package (2x GRS + full PGS set = about $660 I believe)

wpz

[member=66126]wpz[/member] wow, that's great! Do you remember the distance between centers for the screws you had to tap for on that? Anyone have a part number for these (M6 threaded?) Festool Grip knobs?

Looking at the Woodpeckers vs TSO, I like the TSO for the square and the parallax-free viewing cursor, but the Woodpeckers is great in that it fits in a Systainer.

[member=22929]worldburger[/member] -to answer your question about GRS-16 dimensions:

We provide TSO product dimension drawings of interest to users building their own fixture adaptations.
you can look them up for FREE on our TSO website: "SUPPORT" - GRS-16 Family of Guide  Rail Squares drawings.
the accessory mounting hole pattern is our "TSO standard" 100mm o.c. spacing.
the holes are tapped M6x1.0/

If you're really interested, you can buy our GRS-16 upgrade drill fixture, CNC machined with an included 5mm Tap Drill. The drill fixture is machined to be edge locating the holes perfectly.

You can order SKU 61-354  $ 6.00

Hans

 

[edwarmr]

I have both the WP and the TSO. I originally was excited about the WP because, well, the red, but got quickly frustrated by the taking it apart and putting it away~

Have you seen the updated foam from WP? You might be able to move your foam around to do something similar.

Actually this foam insert was a custom one I made using kaizen foam to store the PGS assembled. I pitched the idea to Woodpeckers and they said they liked it but they were too busy with other projects to change the insert. Hopefully they will update it someday using my insert idea. I think they would sell more of their parallel guide systems if they did that.

 

[pettyconstruction]

I have both the WP and the TSO. I originally was excited about the WP because, well, the red, but got quickly frustrated by the taking it apart and putting it away~

Have you seen the updated foam from WP? You might be able to move your foam around to do something similar.

Actually this foam insert was a custom one I made using kaizen foam to store the PGS assembled. I pitched the idea to Woodpeckers and they said they liked it but they were too busy with other projects to change the insert. Hopefully they will update it someday using my insert idea. I think they would sell more of their parallel guide systems if they did that.

That’s what my WP set looks like.
I leave them on the rail , and I keep the connection pieces in the rail.
I just cut and ripped out the foam.
I think it’s nice to haul the systainer on to a job site , but as was said, the rails have to be brought in, so carrying some parallel guides is not a problem.
Also, if ripping long ply, I just leave them attached to the Festool rails,once set up.
Charlie

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

 

[Stan Tillinghast]

I also belong to a gun forum, and their tastes are even more expensive to my wallet than FOG.
I just ordered some Kaizen stuff, totally unnecessary but dang it does look good!

 

[Peter_C]

Actually this foam insert was a custom one I made using kaizen foam to store the PGS assembled. I pitched the idea to Woodpeckers and they said they liked it but they were too busy with other projects to change the insert. Hopefully they will update it someday using my insert idea. I think they would sell more of their parallel guide systems if they did that.

Thanks for the correction and "Nice Job!" The less assembly work before putting it to use the better.

A couple questions if I might though. Did you start with new foam, or did you reuse any of the original foam? What direction do the tracks underneath face? On edge or laid flat, numbers up? Maybe a photo with one of the tracks and attachment pieces removed would help. Do they ride in a vehicle often? Are they getting scratched up from travel? I plan to do the same with my parallel guide storage Systainers, and would appreciate any help.

Charlie, you state you rearranged the foam and got it to work. Got a photo or two of your setup please? Are they getting scratched up from travel? Road travel is always hard on equipment.

 

[edwarmr]

Actually this foam insert was a custom one I made using kaizen foam to store the PGS assembled. I pitched the idea to Woodpeckers and they said they liked it but they were too busy with other projects to change the insert. Hopefully they will update it someday using my insert idea. I think they would sell more of their parallel guide systems if they did that.

Thanks for the correction and "Nice Job!" The less assembly work before putting it to use the better.

A couple questions if I might though. Did you start with new foam, or did you reuse any of the original foam? What direction do the tracks underneath face? On edge or laid flat, numbers up? Maybe a photo with one of the tracks and attachment pieces removed would help. Do they ride in a vehicle often? Are they getting scratched up from travel? I plan to do the same with my parallel guide storage Systainers, and would appreciate any help.

Charlie, you state you rearranged the foam and got it to work. Got a photo or two of your setup please? Are they getting scratched up from travel? Road travel is always hard on equipment.

Thanks!

1.) Did you start with new foam, or did you reuse any of the original foam?

I started with new foam. I used Kaizen foam which is really easy to customize. You can either cut it to the size of the systainer yourself or buy from a company like kaizeninserts.com (they use a CNC to make nice tight inserts for Systainers but they are spendy)

2.) What direction do the tracks underneath face? On edge or laid flat, numbers up?

They lay flat with the numbers up (see pictures)

3.) Do they ride in a vehicle often? Are they getting scratched up from travel?

So I ended up getting a table saw (a CMS-TS 75 Module) so I sold my parallel guides a few months ago. But as far as travel goes they will not get scratched up. I did a couple of these inserts before I got the fit just right. All the parts are a nice tight fit so there is no movement when the Systainer is closed. You will notice there is kaizen foam on the lid as well to keep everything secure.

Honestly I loved how compact my setup was and I hope eventually Woodpeckers will redo the insert to allow the track to remain set up. One of the biggest complaints I read about Woodpeckers Parallel Guide System was that it had to be disassembled for storage. This insert eliminates that problem. Most repeated cuts people make probably only require one track to be attached so you can be ready to go with this setup in a matter of seconds.

I hope this helps! Let me know if you have any more questions. The only picture I could find that shows the extra track storage was from a different version of the insert I made. The extra track storage remains the same on version you have a picture of. There is also a flush mount Tanos foam insert at the bottom of the Systainer so everything sits level and stable (I believe you can order the flush mount Tanos foam from Woodcraft).

Here are some pics I still had.

[attachimg=1][attachimg=2][attachimg=3][attachimg=4]

 

[Peter_C]

Super helpful, thank you so much

Edit: I have a TS75 table saw setup also, but the parallel guides have a place in cutting sheet goods. Also have a Bosch 4100 that I am not too fond of, but there are times it is the best option for certain types of cuts. Haven't made a sled for the TS75 setup yet, and the sliding table just isn't the same as a sled.

 

[pettyconstruction]

Pics of mine , I mis spoke on my foam , but this is how it’s stored  [ IMG]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200806/4ab189a351a0952f8d46e5b9c232ca88.jpg[/IMG]i

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

 

[Peter_C]

Thanks Charlie, that is pretty much how mine is setup now, but leaving them together would be 4 less screws to deal with (already have blocks to help set them up quicker).

The other image you posted above.

 

[Stan Tillinghast]

Edwarmr-
I’m going to shamelessly copy your Kaizen foam setup for the WP PGS. I’ve ordered the foam and cutting set. Not having to recalibrate each time you take the pieces out of the Systainer would save a lot of time and potential trouble.
I’ve posted elsewhere, I’m just using the PGS for the first time, other than test cuts, and am really liking it.
I’m replacing the Phillips head screws with hex head screws as recommended by someone else on FOG.

 

[edwarmr]

Edwarmr-
I’m going to shamelessly copy your Kaizen foam setup for the WP PGS. I’ve ordered the foam and cutting set. Not having to recalibrate each time you take the pieces out of the Systainer would save a lot of time and potential trouble.
I’ve posted elsewhere, I’m just using the PGS for the first time, other than test cuts, and am really liking it.
I’m replacing the Phillips head screws with hex head screws as recommended by someone else on FOG.

[member=1170]Stan Tillinghast[/member]

Go for it I hope it serves you well.

I’m kind of obsessed with kaizen foam inserts. This is off topic but I recently made an insert to store both my RO 90 and RO 150 sanders in one of the new Sys3 M 187s (that’s smaller than the current Sys 3 T-Loc). I’m all about saving space if I can. I thought the Rotex insert would be popular and I put a couple of my early versions up for sale but there doesn’t seem to be much interest in it. I leave my plug it cord on my CT Mini so I don’t need the Systainer to store a plug it. I really like the new Sys3 M 187 because of the front handle being right in the center of the Systainer so it is well balanced. Also it is the largest size of the new 3rd generation Systainers that still has a front handle (the larger sizes just have a pull for use with van racking).

[attachimg=1][attachimg=2][attachimg=3]

 

[worldburger]

Edwarmr-
I’m going to shamelessly copy your Kaizen foam setup for the WP PGS. I’ve ordered the foam and cutting set. Not having to recalibrate each time you take the pieces out of the Systainer would save a lot of time and potential trouble.
I’ve posted elsewhere, I’m just using the PGS for the first time, other than test cuts, and am really liking it.
I’m replacing the Phillips head screws with hex head screws as recommended by someone else on FOG.

Nice! Link to where you're buying the foam from?

Edwarmr-
I’m going to shamelessly copy your Kaizen foam setup for the WP PGS. I’ve ordered the foam and cutting set. Not having to recalibrate each time you take the pieces out of the Systainer would save a lot of time and potential trouble.
I’ve posted elsewhere, I’m just using the PGS for the first time, other than test cuts, and am really liking it.
I’m replacing the Phillips head screws with hex head screws as recommended by someone else on FOG.

[member=1170]Stan Tillinghast[/member]

Go for it I hope it serves you well.

I’m kind of obsessed with kaizen foam inserts. This is off topic but I recently made an insert to store both my RO 90 and RO 150 sanders in one of the new Sys3 M 187s (that’s smaller than the current Sys 3 T-Loc). I’m all about saving space if I can. I thought the Rotex insert would be popular and I put a couple of my early versions up for sale but there doesn’t seem to be much interest in it. I leave my plug it cord on my CT Mini so I don’t need the Systainer to store a plug it. I really like the new Sys3 M 187 because of the front handle being right in the center of the Systainer so it is well balanced. Also it is the largest size of the new 3rd generation Systainers that still has a front handle (the larger sizes just have a pull for use with van racking).

[attachimg=1][attachimg=2][attachimg=3]

I wouldn't say there wasn't much interest in it (I have one from you, it's great). I think you just have to find a way to connect your prospective customers with your product

 

[Peter_C]

Not having to recalibrate each time you take the pieces out of the Systainer would save a lot of time and potential trouble.

Another option is to use stops of some kind at the back of the track attachment. Some knurled knobs work, like shown in the photo below on the PGS stops, or I made some from scrap aluminum, as also shown in the photo below.

I’m replacing the Phillips head screws with hex head screws as recommended by someone else on FOG.

Go with 5/8" screws. You can always cut them off. The extra threads will allow them to be unscrewed without falling out as easily. Plus if in a vehicle and rattling around, they are less likely to fall out.

 

[edwarmr]

I wouldn't say there wasn't much interest in it (I have one from you, it's great). I think you just have to find a way to connect your prospective customers with your product

I’m glad you like it

And yeah you’re probably right. I don’t usually even intend to make multiple inserts but as I am making them I realize something I can do better and rather than just getting rid of the insert I figure I might as well sell it to someone who could use it. I actually enjoying making the inserts but they are very time consuming. It’s rewarding when it’s all done though

 

[edwarmr]

Nice! Link to where you're buying the foam from?

I’d recommend buying it straight from Fast Cap. I believe they are the actual manufacturer. It’s only worth it if you spend $100 though (they offer free shipping with a $100 purchase) since shipping is expensive. Rockler carries Kaizen foam as well as Woodcraft but their options are limited.

Fast Cap has four color options: black, black/white sandwich, black/red sandwich (Great for Woodpecker tools), and black/yellow sandwich (Great for Dewalt tools).
https://www.fastcap.com/product/kaizen-foam

 

[MikeGE]

I tried to order the Kaizen foam from FastCap, based on the great customer service feedback they had.  I might be wrong, but I don't think FastCap makes the Kaizen, but is just a large distributor.  I wanted a full box of each of the sizes shipped to my APO address through the USPS, which meant the foam sheets had to be cut in half length-wise and repackaged in order to meet the USPS size restrictions.  A full box could still be shipped as a full box, but with a different dimension.  FastCap refused to do this as it was impossible to open the boxes and touch the contents.  Impossible.  I spoke with one of the customer service reps, and he told me they drop ship and never see or touch the boxes, and their shipping model does not permit special trips to the U.S. Post Office.

Fortunately, I found company called Kaizen Inserts owned by Brian Way.  Brian was willing to cut and repackage the foam sheets and happy to supply me with as much Kaizen as I wanted.  I bought four or five full boxes of different thickness Kaizen, as well as pre-cut inserts for the Sortimo L-Boxx containers I was using at the time with my Bosch Blue tools.  Brian cut and repackaged the foam sheets into boxes he bought from Home Depot, and I had them about two weeks later.  The mail clerks weren't too happy because they did take a lot of shelf space in the post office until I could pick them up.
Brian sells pre-cut inserts for the Festool boxes:
https://kaizeninserts.com/t/festool

If these are anything like the L-Boxx inserts, they will fit the Systainer containers perfectly.

 

[edwarmr]

I tried to order the Kaizen foam from FastCap, based on the great customer service feedback they had.  I might be wrong, but I don't think FastCap makes the Kaizen, but is just a large distributor.  I wanted a full box of each of the sizes shipped to my APO address through the USPS, which meant the foam sheets had to be cut in half length-wise and repackaged in order to meet the USPS size restrictions.  A full box could still be shipped as a full box, but with a different dimension.  FastCap refused to do this as it was impossible to open the boxes and touch the contents.  Impossible.  I spoke with one of the customer service reps, and he told me they drop ship and never see or touch the boxes, and their shipping model does not permit special trips to the U.S. Post Office.

Fortunately, I found company called Kaizen Inserts owned by Brian Way.  Brian was willing to cut and repackage the foam sheets and happy to supply me with as much Kaizen as I wanted.  I bought four or five full boxes of different thickness Kaizen, as well as pre-cut inserts for the Sortimo L-Boxx containers I was using at the time with my Bosch Blue tools.  Brian cut and repackaged the foam sheets into boxes he bought from Home Depot, and I had them about two weeks later.  The mail clerks weren't too happy because they did take a lot of shelf space in the post office until I could pick them up.
Brian sells pre-cut inserts for the Festool boxes:
https://kaizeninserts.com/t/festool

If these are anything like the L-Boxx inserts, they will fit the Systainer containers perfectly.

I can second your recommendation of Brian’s inserts. They are very good. I sent him a new
Sys3 M 187 so he could template it. I told him he could keep it in exchange for a couple inserts. Not only did he send me the inserts but he sent the Systainer back with them!

The inserts are a little spendy but save time. You can always order one CNC insert from him and then trace the insert to make your own in the future.

And looks like Fast Cap has now become much more expensive to order Kaizen Foam from. I just went on their website and to buy them at an affordable rate you have to buy them in larger quantities between 5 and 10 sheets depending on the thickness.

Rockler and Woodcraft are probably the best bet for individual sheets if you are ok with their limited options.