Workshop heating

[Crazyraceguy]

I have gas for heat in the house, but it's an odd configuration. The house is 95 years old, originally with a coal furnace, which was converted to oil in the 1940s. Years after that, it was converted to gas, I'm not sure when. The odd part is that the meter in inside the house, in the basement. Getting from there to the garage would be quite a challenge.
I think I would prefer gas heat out there. Maybe I should get an estimate, since it's not in my expertise. It may not be as hard as I think?

 

[rmwarren]

I'd have this in the house if I had figured it out sooner, at least as supplemtary heat.

I owned a condo about 40 years ago that used those flat radiant heat panels in the ceilings of the various rooms for the only heating method. It was a 80-90 year old house that was turned into condos and they didn't have the option of running forced air ducting throughout. Easier to run wires than ductwork.  [smile]

The panels aren't the prettiest things to have in the ceiling however it baffles me why they aren't more common, especially in retrofits like your previous home.

Our previous home has built in the late 40's and had a boiler and cast iron radiators (no AC) and that was when I learned to appreciate radiant heat, it's just so comfortable. We have gas fired forced air now and I generally dislike it.

When building we considered radiant in-floor heat with a geothermal heat pump for cooling, then reality struck and we went with conventional forced air HVAC. A major impediment was finding a contractor that was familiar and didn't pad their price simply out of risk aversion. "That ain't how my grandpap showed me how to do it..." We gave up.

For shop heat, radiant is my ideal.

RMW

 

[ChuckM]

My shop/garage has a low ceiling (because above it is a bonus room (same size as two-car garage)). If I use a natural gas heater, a good part of the wall space would be lost.

Electricity is a lot cheaper than gas, too: Power $0.0659 Cdn/kWh; $4.09 Cdn/GJ.

According to the specs provided by the supplier, the radiant heater (I quoted in my previous post) will cost me only $0.79 Cdn (79 cents) to run a whole day for 8 hours. That's why on a cold day, I leave it on after a finishing or glue-up session until I am due to hit the sack for fire safety reasons.

 

[jeh]

Gas versus electricity prices for heating are meaningless especially in a garage with what might be inadequate insulation combined with high heat loss. Gas will heat the garage to a comfortable level very quickly even it is very cold to start. Heating with electricity will take forever and might never get to the target temperature depending on the outside temperature. Even worse several hours of heating will be wiped out in an instant when the garage door is opened. If you have gas then go with it, if not it probably does not make sense to add it. Propane is tougher to gauge and the price is so variable and usually more than natural gas.

 

[bobtskutter]

In the UK i'm currently paying
33 pence/KWh for Electricity
10 pence/KWh for Gas
16 pence/KWh for Diesel (I'm pretty sure I've got my maths right on that one)

i.e. Electricity is 2 to 3 times more expensive than gas / diesel.

How fast you can heat up a volume of air depends on how much power you can get out of your heating appliance.
In the UK the typical house hold electrical outlet is 240V 13amp, with an "off the shelf" heater being 2.4kW.
My domestic gas boiler is able to fire at 35kW.
The Diesel heater is able to fire at 5kW, but i estimate it's releasing about 3kW to 4kW of useful heat into the garage (the rest goes out the exhaust).

The limiting factors are:
How much power you can get through your DOMESTIC electrical system.
How big the gas pipes are in your house so the gas pressure at the combustion appliance can sustain a flame.
I only bought a 5kW diesel heater.

Those radiant panel heaters look great.  I've noticed them in use in several places where I live, mainly waiting areas at the clubs my kids go to.  If a door is opened then the room cools down, but the radiant heaters can make me FEEL warm pretty quick after the door is closed.  Not sure I want to pay the running costs for the electricity.

Regards
Bob

 

[bruegf]

I have an single 18K btu ceiling mounted natural gas shop heater with an inlet that draws combustion air from outside.  It heats the entire 24 x 50 pole barn to 50 degrees for about $20 per month, but it is extremely well insulated.

Fred

 

[rmwarren]

Gas versus electricity prices for heating are meaningless especially in a garage with what might be inadequate insulation combined with high heat loss. Gas will heat the garage to a comfortable level very quickly even it is very cold to start. Heating with electricity will take forever and might never get to the target temperature depending on the outside temperature. Even worse several hours of heating will be wiped out in an instant when the garage door is opened. If you have gas then go with it, if not it probably does not make sense to add it. Propane is tougher to gauge and the price is so variable and usually more than natural gas.

The nuance here is whether the air or the objects are being heated. I'm in no way qualified to debate the relative specifics, however when the structure, tools, materials etc are all warm and reradiating heat it changes the calculation.

At this point I am way beyond my high school physics understanding of all this. I'm not a scientist/physicist/mathematician, I just play one one the internet...  [big grin]

RMW

 

[bobtskutter]

It's conduction, convection and radiation.

The Sun radiates energy as radio waves through the vacuum of space.
That radiated energy is absorbed by materials and they warm up.  This is what happens when the radiant heater warms up the floor.  Andy why you feel "instant" heat when you're standing in front of the heater.

As the floor warms up, other items that are touching it receive energy through conduction.  That's why your feet feel warm.

The air is in contact with the floor and also starts to warm up.  As the air warms up it's density goes down and the warm air floats upwards to be replaced by cold air.  This is convection and it's why people talk about installing slow speed fans in very high rooms to recirculate the warm air back down to where the people are.

The same thing happens with a saucepan on a gas stove.
Gas flame radiates onto the bottom of the saucepan.
Conduction through the saucepan base.
Convection through the liquid inside the pan.

Regards
Bob

 

[ChuckM]

Gas versus electricity prices for heating are meaningless especially in a garage with what might be inadequate insulation combined with high heat loss. Gas will heat the garage to a comfortable level very quickly even it is very cold to start. Heating with electricity will take forever and might never get to the target temperature depending on the outside temperature. Even worse several hours of heating will be wiped out in an instant when the garage door is opened. If you have gas then go with it, if not it probably does not make sense to add it. Propane is tougher to gauge and the price is so variable and usually more than natural gas.

While electricity and gas costs vary among places, I say the former is cheaper in my case because
the low ceiling in my shop would require a siginifcant amount of alternation and loss of space to make way for the use of a gas heater with an exhaust vent installed outside the shop. At least several thousand dollars would be an amount to budget for for such kind of construction work.

$1 a day for the radiant heater (finishing & glue-ups require longer use, otherwise it's $0.5 a day) plus the running cost of the garage heater for the hours that I'm in the shop are pretty reasonable. The garage door usually stays closed until a woodworking session ends. On the days the car is used (2 days, 3 max.,  a week), they usually are not woodworking days. My garage is insulated including the door.

In the winter, my total household gas bill (furnace and water tank) more than double the electrical bill (lights, shop (woodworking machines and heaters), appliances (electric stove and oven, fridge, microwave, toaster, etc.) and computers).

 

[Michael Kellough]

Anything that is especially good to use in a cool shop is over the ear hearing protection.

 

[ChuckM]

Anything that is especially good to use in a cool shop is over the ear hearing protection.

Michael,

Interestingly enough, that's something I try to avoid in cold winter days. The cold rims are uncomfortable to the ears even after the head set is put down for a few minutes.

I go with the foam cuffs that won't turn cold:https://www.leevalley.com/en-ca/sho...MIisuZtbmL_AIVkjStBh1tLAbpEAQYBSABEgLT5fD_BwE

Literally, UPS just delivered another Sensor Guard to me as I was typing this!

[attachimg=1]

 

[Michael Kellough]

Anything that is especially good to use in a cool shop is over the ear hearing protection.

Michael,

Interestingly enough, that's something I try to avoid in cold winter days. The cold rims are uncomfortable to the ears even after the head set is put down for a few minutes.

I go with the foam cuffs that won't turn cold:https://www.leevalley.com/en-ca/sho...MIisuZtbmL_AIVkjStBh1tLAbpEAQYBSABEgLT5fD_BwE

True. I just swipe the ear pads up and down a thigh a couple of times and the friction warms the plastic up.

 

[rvieceli]

[member=57948]ChuckS[/member] How are those hearing protectors? I usually wear the earmuff style, but my full face shield that I wear when using the wire wheel doesn't like the muff style. I hate the ones that have pointed ends that cram into your ear canal. Those appear to be different.

Thanks Ron

 

[ChuckM]

Ron,

The Sensor Guard is now my go-to hearing protection for shop use, because it also allows the enjoyment of the radio. The cuffs are flat, not pointed or conical, which should help avoid the accumulation of ear wax. I do use the over-the-ear hearing protection and the custom ear plugs (https://www.leevalley.com/en-ca/shop/tools/apparel-and-safety-gear/hearing-protection/76327-custom-ear-plug-kit?item=22R7270) for double protection when thickness-planing.

The cuffs may need to be replaced if they've lost their elasticity, but that shouldn't happen until after a good number of years of use. (Note: If the cuffs remain elastic but become worn on the ends that can leak sound, simply reverse the cuffs, and use the fresh ends.)

 

[rvieceli]

Thanks Chuck, just ordered one from Amazon.

Ron

 

[Mini Me]

A very interesting read for me as I have only seen snow once and I have no desire to do it again. As mild as our climate is we still need some heat to be comfortable, this past winter just gone we installed IR panels in our living area and they are wonderful. Heating is all about heat soak of the building and materials in it and IR panels do that extremely well, no fans and no noise is a bonus.

 

[ChuckM]

In the UK i'm currently paying
33 pence/KWh for ElectricitySnip.

At 1 pence = $0.016 Cdn,, your electrical charge is 8 times (33*0.016/0.0659) my local charge! [scared]

No wonder when I was in London just before summer this year, I saw an energy monitor in my host's kitchen.

 

[bobtskutter]

The UK utilities costs are HUGE right now, there's lots of reasons for it.
There are rumors about having rolling power cuts if there isn't enough fuel to run the power plants!

Bob

 

[RussellS]

Thanks Chuck, just ordered some from Amazon.

Ron

For those who have not ordered the SensGard hearing protection yet.  Amazon sells an Otis model that appears to be identical.  On Amazon use the words "Otis EarShield Ear Plugs 31 dB, Multi" to search for it.  Its $18.99.  The SensGard on Amazon is $24.99.  Use the words "SensGard SG-31 Hearing Protection Band" to search for it.  Lee Valley is selling them for $31.50 USD for some reason.

 

[ChuckM]

Amazon.ca is asking for $46.42 Cdn:https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B00VU4OUUG/ref=twister_B01N025H2F?th=1

The Otis and SensGard look the same except color, and both are made in USA. Maybe Otis is licensed to produce them or they're supplied to Otis under its brand name.