18 Volt non Festool or the 15.4 Volt Festool

[Ken Nagrod]

Doesn't Festool do the same thing?  T12+3, T15+3.......Is the new C12 10.8 or 14.4?  It's all about Li battery tech and companies adapting their previous method of branding to a new technology.

Yes, they do.  I've stated before, especially with the new C12 compared to the old C12, I didn't like the labeling.  I'm sure at some point down the road, they'll be a class action lawsuit over it just like when air compressor manufacturers and retailers advertised deceptive horsepower and cfm ratings.  I'm just aware that this goes on and thought it would be a good idea to point this out to others who might not realize it.  I'm not opening up every company's battery packs to count how many 1.2 or 1.25 volt cells are inside.

 

[AlexThePalex]

I don't like the labeling Festool uses either. Because we are used to manufacturers labeling their drills according to the voltage it does seem deceptive. But on the other hand, just because it is a custom, doesn't make it law. They can name their drills whatever they want. When you check their website for the specs they clearly state the real voltage and so do they in their advertising. Labeling/naming a tool is not the same as advertising it, so I don't think a class action suit would ever be possible.

 

[Frank-Jan]

Don't you love marketing?  I first got wind of this when Bosch admitted to me over the phone that their 10.8 volt tools were being rebranded 12 volts to compete with the new lines from other manufacturers.

Bosch was the first to introduce the 10.8V li-ion tools, when milwaukee introduce theirs they labeled them 12V (allthough they were exactly the same voltage) and people were getting the milwaukee pocket driver, because it was supposed to be higher voltage and the same size. It was after this that bosch rebranded the tools to "12v max" And stated on their websites that they were the same tools as the ones previously sold as 10.8V (and some story about the logic of the other brands that the batteries when fully charged briefly reach a voltage of 12V)

This post is a bit nitpicking, but the people at bosch weren't keeping this a secret to the consumer, the competition started the misleading labeling and having them "admitting" it sounds like they started the "misleading"

Put a spin on it however you want.  If it's deceptive advertising, it's deceptive advertising, any way you look at it.  I made no use of the word secret nor did I state they started the fiasco.  I merely gave my personal experience in finding out about it.  If you're happy with the numbers game, so be it.  I'm not.  As for Bosch's relabeling, I know that I and others that I worked with at the time thought it was truly new models at a higher voltage.  Maybe the product marketing is different or was different in your country than here.

Sorry, I'm not trying to be a spindoctor.
As for the product marketing being different here, I just looked it up, and round here bosch never rebranded that line, the 12v max is a US thing.

I have an almost unhealthy interest in powertools, and frequent a bunch of international forums, this is how I saw the threads of people thinking the other brands were more powerfull because they had a higher voltage, and the press release of the rebranding by bosch... so I guess the marketing worked because I felt a need to respond to your post

(BTW I reread your post above and I do agree with you on those points)

About me being happy with "the numbers game":

  The type number of BMW and Mercedes cars used to reflect the cilinder capacity of the engine of those cars, when, somewhere in the nineties, this wasn't the case anymore for some of the models  I didn't like it, but it's just the way it is.
Likewise, MHz isn't a good base anymore to compare two different processors.

I can understand your concern for deceptive advertising; on a German forum there was a guy who felt cheated because his festool T15 drill didn't reach the mentioned rpm, the rpm mentioned WAS the max rpm the machine could reach, but only with the older NiMH batteries which were 15.6V, which were also compatible with the drill, but not with the 14.4V li Ion batteries, that came with the drill. source (in German)

On topic: If it's available where you are I can highly recommend the earlier mentioned protool 18V pdc drill, It has the same brushless motor the festool drills use, centrotec chuck, angle chuck, 4 speed  metal gear box(3800rpm in 4th) , and a hammerfunction.
The max torque of the hilti drills mentioned is significantly higher than that of the protool ("only" 60Nm) but they don't mention the weight of the hilti drills on their site (1.9 kg for the protool with centrotec chuck)  

 

[Ken Nagrod]

Frank-Jan,

You bring up another good point about the batteries and RPM's.  I didn't know about this until I was informed by one of my contacts at Milwaukee.  In the M12 line of tools, I'm sure you're aware of the batteries that come with those tools, but there's also a larger battery that's only usable in certain M12 tools like the drills and drivers, etc.  That battery increases the torque, rpm's and run time on the drills and drivers.  I was told it's in the neighborhood of 200 rpm's increase.  There are no published specs about that as I was given internal testing info, unless of course they did release that to the public recently.  It's was sometime last year I was told about it.

As for BMW and Mercedes, I guess I haven't been keeping up with Car & Driver, Motor Trend and Road & Track in many years.  I didn't know it had changed.

Thanks.

 

[Coen]

LI-ion battery packs are made with cells that have a nominal voltage of 3.6 / 3.7 Volt. When they are fresh off the charger, they measure 4.2 (empty ~3.0) so not that much smoke to label it '12'. On the batterypack itself (at least with Festool) they clearly state actual nominal voltage, amperage and wattage.

Ni-Mh packs are made with cells that have a nominal voltage of 1.2, minimum around 1.0 and fresh off the charger around 1.4

The Li packs of the C15 have a voltage ranging from 12.0 to 16.2 Volts while the TDK 15.6 packs have a voltage ranging from 13.0 to 18.2 Volts.

Users should make an informed choice anyway. Too many people have bought some cheap 18V Ni-Mh drill thinking it would be stronger than any 12 Volt drill.

 

[GhostFist]

here's the question, how do idiots like myself determine best bang for the buck given this crazy numbers game? How can we truly gage efficiency/power on a drill?

 

[Ken Nagrod]

here's the question, how do idiots like myself determine best bang for the buck given this crazy numbers game? How can we truly gage efficiency/power on a drill?

If you can't or won't do the testing yourself, you have to put faith in others, like the video reviews or articles you find on the net.

 

[L.J]

Frank-Jan,

You bring up another good point about the batteries and RPM's.  I didn't know about this until I was informed by one of my contacts at Milwaukee.  In the M12 line of tools, I'm sure you're aware of the batteries that come with those tools, but there's also a larger battery that's only usable in certain M12 tools like the drills and drivers, etc.  That battery increases the torque, rpm's and run time on the drills and drivers.  I was told it's in the neighborhood of 200 rpm's increase.  There are no published specs about that as I was given internal testing info, unless of course they did release that to the public recently.  It's was sometime last year I was told about it.

As for BMW and Mercedes, I guess I haven't been keeping up with Car & Driver, Motor Trend and Road & Track in many years.  I didn't know it had changed.

Thanks.

This is true about the Milwaukee system,I personally own a few of those tools and have the extended batter pack and it's a night and day difference. I have the Hackzall,mini radio,impact driver & Deep Scan Stud Finder.

 

[joinery45]

Just something to think about with the battery powered tools (again), if you're comparing different drills or saws or whatever, that will obviously give you real-world results, but if you're just comparing specs of one brand to another, the voltages are not always what they seem which affects torque.  The amp hour of the battery affects run time.  For example, some people are talking about the 18 volt Hilti drill that's really over 21 volts.  Maybe it's a weak motor or battery cells and they needed that little extra to compete or maybe they added the extra cells to get more power than other brand's 18 volt drills and marketing is sort of hiding the fact that it's a higher voltage calling it an 18 volt tool.   You take those specs and compare it to another company's 18 volt drill and all of a sudden, you don't realize it's like comparing apples to oranges.

Manufacturers also stretch the limits and sometimes the truth on performance specs.  I feel it's always best to put little value in specs and more in how the tool feels, looks and performs in your hands.  I think the only way you the user will truly be happy is if you take everyone's opinions and marketing hype with a grain of salt and test the product for yourself. -- Is it right for you?

Well put. I was thinking Festool because Festool Drill accessories only fit Centrotec Chucks.But I delayed so long that the new T18 is coming out. I used an original Makita 12v which works for 90% of that kind of work and my C12 works 95% of the time for a combo type drill. Maybe I'm getting old an a 18v sounds better and more realistic than a 20 year old girl.

 

[GhostFist]

Yes the chuck head attachments only fit centrotec drills, but you can use any bit in a festool. I know this can be misleading because you always hear people whining about the lack of centrotec robbies, myself included, but this does not mean i can't use robertson bits in the drill at all, just not with the centrotec chuck without an adapter. It really is a minor gripe but a gripe none the less. I use robertsons in my drill everyday amongst a million different types of other non festool bits.

 

[Brice Burrell]

Yes the chuck head attachments only fit centrotec drills, but you can use any bit in a festool. I know this can be misleading because you always hear people whining about the lack of centrotec robbies, myself included, but this does not mean i can't use robertson bits in the drill at all, just not with the centrotec chuck without an adapter. It really is a minor gripe but a gripe none the less. I use robertsons in my drill everyday amongst a million different types of other non festool bits.

I just don't get the whole no Festool Robertson/square drive bits gripe.  Really, how many of you guys really don't use the BH, BHS bit holders?  I bet very few don't use the bit holders and I'd be every more willing to bet you guys wouldn't buy the one piece Robertson bits bits if Festool offered them, remember these things are nine bucks apiece here in the States and even more up north.  

 

[GhostFist]

Well it's more a gripe for me because that recent bit kit that came out essentially had a large portion of useless bits for me. I like the centrotec system for holding the bit and would use it were the bits available so it's more a minor frustration more than anything.