220V & 240V what's the difference ? ? building a DC system

[Slappy]

I'm looking at setting up a dust control system in my 2 car garage shop & moving way from  my single ShopVac & Dust Deputy .
I want a large system so I can make a few runs of ducts  to 3 sides of the space  
One of the blower/motor assemblies I'm looking at getting says it's a 240V .
I know I'll have to have a electrician in to run the higher voltage line , as I need more 120V 20amp  outlets as well .
( I want to get rid of my grid of extension cords & power strips )

but before I buy a blower/motor what's the difference in 220V & 240V ?

are there different style outlets ( 220V or 240V )  & maybe a additional line needed just for the 240V ?

I'm a complete N00B when it comes to house hold electrician needs .  [blink]

the system will have a cyclone that will vent outside , the loss of heat & cooling is not a issue . negative air pressure is a non-issue as well as the garage has a stair way that leads to a attic , so the air would flow from the attic into the garage & then outta the DC unit exhausting into my sideyard  

 

[tjbnwi]

Not really any difference. Sometimes you'll see something rated for 230 volts.

The only issue may be current draw, if the motor plate shows 15 amps at 240 volts, it will be 16.63 amps at 220 volts.

Here is a NEMA device chart;

http://www.generalcable.com/NR/rdonlyres/75CFEE81-ACDA-4F60-9E22-4CC19C14F343/0/Pg9698_NEMA_Chart.pdf

Tom

 

[leer]

The simple answer is that those terms have come to be used interchangeably.  Just like the typical household circuits in the USA were once referred to as 110VAC , but you would also see 115, and 120VAC references.  For your shop, 240VAC/20A breakers are sufficient for most power tools. I have 3 in my shop -- one for my radial arm saw, one for a compressor, and one for the dust collector. My Laguna 2HP Dust Collector's motor plate shows it rated for 220VAC, and 13A.  That allows it to be wired with the same 12ga. wires as your typical 120VAC 20A circuits. (The more typical 15A circuits in your home for lighting and wall outlets are usually 15A circuits, and can use lighter 14ga. wire.)

I see lots of references to switching a dual voltage product from 120 to 240 to make it more powerful.  You don't get more power, you just get less current draw at the higher voltage setting.  A motor that draws 20A at 120VAC will draw 10A at 240VAC.  

Hope that helps.  You can Google "220 vs. 240" to get more information.

 

[Slappy]

Cool , ThanX for the link Tom . 
I can move forward now , as the blower/motor I'm looking at is on sale now .
With all the tools I want to get for the shop , I feel that DC is the top priority , that & get the right electrical needs taken care of 1st .

 

[tjbnwi]

The simple answer is that those terms have come to be used interchangeably.  Just like the typical household circuits in the USA were once referred to as 110VAC , but you would also see 115, and 120VAC references.  For your shop, 240VAC/20A breakers are sufficient for most power tools. I have 3 in my shop -- one for my radial arm saw, one for a compressor, and one for the dust collector. My Laguna 2HP Dust Collector's motor plate shows it rated for 220VAC, and 13A.  That allows it to be wired with the same 12ga. wires as your typical 120VAC 20A circuits. (The more typical 15A circuits in your home for lighting and wall outlets are usually 15A circuits, and can use lighter 14ga. wire.)

I see lots of references to switching a dual voltage product from 120 to 240 to make it more powerful.  You don't get more power, you just get less current draw at the higher voltage setting.  A motor that draws 20A at 120VAC will draw 10A at 240VAC.  

Hope that helps.  You can Google "220 vs. 240" to get more information.

At 13 amps you could use 14 ga. wire. It is amperage only that determines wire gauge.

Tom

 

[Slappy]

EDIT: I backed off this purchase see the latest posting

here's the unit I'm looking at , I'm only interested in the blower ( you can't get the blower only )
all the 3HP blower's I've found cost way more than than the whole DC unit
I was going with a 2HP Harbor Freight model BUT there are no replacement parts for those units & the impeller is sub standard as well
I'd rather pay more for a unit I can repair & get parts for .  
http://www.grizzly.com/products/3-HP-Dust-Collector-with-Aluminum-Impeller-Polar-Bear-Series/G1030Z2P

I'd  sell the bags & filter assemblies after I get the whole unit as they are a standard size
I found a large cyclone that I would mount this blower on top & have it exhaust directly thru the wall to the outside so no filter is needed
the Cyclone has the same opening sizes as this blower so no reducer/adapter will be needed .

 

[tjbnwi]

Per the spec sheet you need a 20 amp minimum circuit (all equipment must be install to manufactures specs). You'll also need to pick up a NEMA 6-20R receptacle to match the supplied plug, don't forget the cover plate.

Tom

 

[Slappy]

EDIT: I backed off this purchase see the latest posting

when you do a comparison between models on that Grizz DC machines it show the one I like has the motor MFG'ered in Taiwan instead of China like the Harbor Freight 2 HP blower .
from the research I could find that the better single stage motors come from Taiwan these days than the ones coming from China .
I going 3HP over 2HP is just I feel it's better to have more suction than I need VS less  suction .
here's the cyclone I found ,
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Cyclone-Separator-for-Dust-Collector-/281067825681?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4170f2aa11
this guy has 2 models for the same price :  Below are the demensions for the two cyclones.

4" Unit - 37" overall length, 16" in diameter, 4" inlet, 6" outlet on top and 6" discharge on bottom with flange drilled with 8 mounting holes.

6" Unit - 41" overall length, 18" in diameter, 6" inlet, 7" outlet on top and 6" discharge on bottom with flange drilled with 8 mounting holes.

the 2nd pix shows a Grizzley blower on top

 

[leer]

At 13 amps you could use 14 ga. wire. It is amperage only that determines wire gauge.

Tom

You do not want to do that!  The required breaker will be a 20A breaker, so you need 12ga. wire.  Plus, code will require it. And at some point in the future, something else could be plugged into that circuit that draws more current.  The difference in price between 12ga and 14 ga is not much, so no need to try to cut corners.

 

[tjbnwi]

At 13 amps you could use 14 ga. wire. It is amperage only that determines wire gauge.

Tom

You do not want to do that!  The required breaker will be a 20A breaker, so you need 12ga. wire.  Plus, code will require it. And at some point in the future, something else could be plugged into that circuit that draws more current.  The difference in price between 12ga and 14 ga is not much, so no need to try to cut corners.

At 12 amp listed draw a 15 amp circuit is all that is required. Unless the manufactures instructions require a 20 amp breaker (which I note in my previous response) that is not true. This is not a continuous duty item so it does not fall under the 125% rule. If the unit was supplied with a 6-15 plug on the cord, a higher amperage unit could not be plugged into the receptacle without the plug being changed.

Has nothing to do with cost, in the areas I work we use EMT on all installs, residential and commercial it is a code requirement. My go to wire is 12 ga. stranded. It about the application of the rules. 

Tom

 

[Slappy]

what ever I do that circuit would have at least 3 outlets  & IIRC that would be on 30 amp breaker
I would want to hire a electrician to run the line anyway & If I'm throwing down $$ on a pro then I'd want to future proof myself for the capability to be adding larger machines . In Any case it's gonna be to local codes & California has some of the stiffest ,
You'd want things to Code anyway as if not ,if the house ever burnt down your Home Insurance would go void .
As I don't have much room left in the main panel  I thing I'm gonna have to spring for a sub panel anyway ,
Anyway I'll let the pro figure all that out anyway
.
Looking forward to getting the blower & Cyclone built , I'll have to Fab a metal stand to mount the blower  on top of cyclone & make a chip/dust trap for the bottom
I'm redoing the whole shop , this is the 1st phase
I'm tearing out some old cabinet shelves , closets ( they've been there since the 50's )to make more efficient use of space.

 

[Rick Christopherson]

what ever I do that circuit would have at least 3 outlets  & IIRC that would be on 30 amp breaker
I would want to hire a electrician to run the line anyway & If I'm throwing down $$ on a pro then I'd want to future proof myself for the capability to be adding larger machines . In Any case it's gonna be to local codes & California has some of the stiffest ,
You'd want things to Code anyway as if not ,if the house ever burnt down your Home Insurance would go void .
As I don't have much room left in the main panel  I thing I'm gonna have to spring for a sub panel anyway ,
Anyway I'll let the pro figure all that out anyway
.
Looking forward to getting the blower & Cyclone built , I'll have to Fab a metal stand to mount the blower   on top of cyclone & make a chip/dust trap for the bottom
I'm redoing the whole shop , this is the 1st phase
I'm tearing out some old cabinet shelves , closets ( they've been there since the 50's )to make more efficient use of space.

You do not want to put in a 30-amp circuit, because that would require you to use all 30-amp receptacles (NEC 210.21). Stick with your 20-amp circuit and use NEMA 6-20 receptacles. NEMA 6-20 receptacles will accept both 6-15 and 6-20 appliance plugs.

It is kind of odd that Grizzly is putting a NEMA 6-20 plug on this, because it is rated at 12 amps. A 12-amp device can be connected to a 15-amp circuit with cord-and-plug. So they could have just as well used the more common 6-15 plug. If it was 13 amps, then it would require the 6-20 plug because no single cord-and-plug device can occupy more than 80% of the circuit.

Depending on what else you put on this circuit, you probably won't have any problems at 20-amps. The only load on a dust collector at startup is the inertia of the impeller, and they don't begin building load until the motor gets up to speed. Once it is at speed, it will operate near its rated load, though. On the other hand, something like a tablesaw has even less inertia on startup, and it rarely ever operates at its rated load.

Even though no single device can use more than 80% of a circuit (silly rule), when you have more than one device, you are free to utilize 100% of that circuit.

 

[Slappy]

Cool , see I'm a NooB at this electrical stuff , I always defer to some who knows what they are talking about  ThanXX

 

[Slappy]

After more research & a good read of Bill Pentz's site , http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/index.cfm
I've backed off on that Ebay Cyclone & that Grizzly 3HP dust collection set up I was gonna use  the blower outta of  [crying]

that Ebay Cyclone is un-tested  [doh] &  [scratch chin] no telling if the design even works as well or any where near  as a Bill Pentz designed cyclone & blower would
my choice of slapping a Ho'Made  Ebay Cyclone on a Chinese blower that has a aluminum impeller ( a clear fire risk  [scared] ) 
that's Just a bet I don't want to risk  [bite tongue] , if it don't work out then I'm  Just Pooched  [embarassed]
I've decided to bite the bullet & get that CV1800 .

The ClearVue CV1800 has the optimal designed cyclone & has a 5HP motor (North American made) with a Steel impeller in the  blower that is designed for the Pentz Cyclone
Yeah it's over $500.oo more than I wanted to spend BUT when it's my health  it a bargain to know it's the best .
As with my Festools I buy the best for a reason  . That reason : I don't have to tell you FOG guys the why for  [blink]
We all may laugh about drinking the Green-KoolAide , but reasons ARE a serious matter !    [thumbs up]

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

for those who have not read the Pentz site a aluminum impeller will  send off white hot molten AL  particles  if it is struck by a nail,screw or any other metal object , these are not the yellow sparks that quickly cool as these actually are burning much like white phosphorus & are a clear fire risk when they end up in the chip bin or in filter assembly .
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

[cool]

 

[Rick Christopherson]

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

for those who have not read the Pentz site a aluminum impeller will  send off white hot molten AL  particles  if it is struck by a nail,screw or any other metal object , these are not the yellow sparks that quickly cool as these actually are burning much like white phosphorus & are a clear fire risk when they end up in the chip bin or in filter assembly .
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Whoa there little buckaroo. Careful about which coolaid you're sipping.  [scared] (meant in jest, not insult)  [big grin]

"White hot aluminum?" Really? How is the energy from an impact on aluminum supposed to be higher than steel when the aluminum absorbs more of that energy in the form of deformation? The statement above just doesn't pass the sniff-test on several levels. It is, after all, the reason why we can cut aluminum with router bits and sawblades.

If you have ever cut aluminum and steel, you know that you don't want to have anything combustible behind the waterfall of steel sparks, but the aluminum has almost no heat behind it. Contrary to the above statement, the aluminum is neither molten, nor very hot. Because aluminum is a better thermal conductor, it also cools much faster.

[attachimg=#]

 

[leakyroof]

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

for those who have not read the Pentz site a aluminum impeller will  send off white hot molten AL  particles  if it is struck by a nail,screw or any other metal object , these are not the yellow sparks that quickly cool as these actually are burning much like white phosphorus & are a clear fire risk when they end up in the chip bin or in filter assembly .
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Whoa there little buckaroo. Careful about which coolaid you're sipping.  [scared] (meant in jest, not insult)  [big grin]

"White hot aluminum?" Really? How is the energy from an impact on aluminum supposed to be higher than steel when the aluminum absorbs more of that energy in the form of deformation? The statement above just doesn't pass the sniff-test on several levels. It is, after all, the reason why we can cut aluminum with router bits and sawblades.

If you have ever cut aluminum and steel, you know that you don't want to have anything combustible behind the waterfall of steel sparks, but the aluminum has almost no heat behind it. Contrary to the above statement, the aluminum is neither molten, nor very hot. Because aluminum is a better thermal conductor, it also cools much faster.

[attachimg=#]

I suspect someone once heard or saw Magnesium burn, and feels that Aluminum is just as scary.

 

[Rick Christopherson]

I suspect someone once heard or saw Magnesium burn, and feels that Aluminum is just as scary.

No, in my opinion, it is deliberate mis-marketing using scare tactics, which I strongly disapprove of. Over the years I have had several of these purveyors contact me via email to request me to support them with my name and reputation. I have refused them all, because I cannot condone the marketing practices.

I won't openly oppose them, unless I come across a public occurrence of false information--such as this one. When that does happen, I will set the record straight.

I don't oppose the products themselves, as they are beneficial in their own right. I just oppose the tactics used in marketing them.

P.S. I love the movie, "Better off Dead", but I can't for the life of me locate a clip of the "Cheer up Little Buckaroo" scene. I love that scene!!!  [big grin]

 

[leakyroof]

I suspect someone once heard or saw Magnesium burn, and feels that Aluminum is just as scary.

No, in my opinion, it is deliberate mis-marketing using scare tactics, which I strongly disapprove of. Over the years I have had several of these purveyors contact me via email to request me to support them with my name and reputation. I have refused them all, because I cannot condone the marketing practices.

I won't openly oppose them, unless I come across a public occurrence of false information--such as this one. When that does happen, I will set the record straight.

I don't oppose the products themselves, as they are beneficial in their own right. I just oppose the tactics used in marketing them.

I concede your point Rick, but was adding what I run into with the misconception of magnesium versus Aluminum out in the world. As an aside, I had thought that non-steel impellers were supposed to be safer around wood dust in a DC system?
Correct or not?  The worry was the stray piece of ferrous metal getting sucked up and striking the steel impeller.

 

[Slappy]

I knew posting that get a reaction from you guys :
here a cut & past from Bill's site on impeller's made from AL
he quotes the  newer study by the ACGIH & they reference the US Bureau of Mines

if you look up the current warnings you will find that the experts on ventilation recommend against use of aluminum impellers. From the ACGIH's Industrial Ventilation: A Manual of Recommended Practice for Design, page 7-22, 26th Edition, 2007:

"For many years aluminum alloy impellers have been specified to minimize sparking if the impeller were to contact other steel parts. This is still accepted, but tests by the U.S. Bureau of Mines and others have demonstrated that impact of aluminum with rusty steel creates a Thermite reaction and thus possible ignition hazards. Special care must be taken when aluminum alloys are used in the presence of steel."

For those who don't recognize what a thermite reaction is, you already know because Fourth of July sparklers are made from powdered aluminum that when lit burn with a very bright, hot, high intensity flame. In other words, if you sucked up a rusty nail it could knock off a small piece of aluminum creating the equivalent of throwing part of a lit sparkler into either your dust bin or filter. Since I first wrote this page NFPA has acknowledged this thermite generated fire problem and now no longer recommends the use of aluminum and aluminum alloy impellers.  

you can read for yourself , here on Bill's site he discusses this, see the section "C" of the ' impeller material' about 1/2 down the page  ;

http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/blower.cfm#impeller_material

 

[Rick Christopherson]

The worry was the stray piece of ferrous metal getting sucked up and striking the steel impeller.

No, even that is an over-hyped myth. The energy of the impact is still quite small. The differential speed of the two objects is just over 100 mph, and will not result in enough energy to create a significant impact energy. A tiny spark may form, but it will be of such low size and energy that it would likely not even be visible. More importantly, it will be too small to propagate into the quiescent air where combustible concentrations of dust can exist.