3rd party accessories/attachments and Festool warranty question

[Runhard]

I was reading in the Festool Tool Reviews about the Domino and the new bit adaptor from a 3rd party and now have a question. Do all 3rd party attachments and accessories void the Festool warranty? I can understand how and why some things would void it, but how strict are the warranty guidelines?
Here is my question on the subject when someone post that they think that the new Domino bit adaptor from another manufacturer would void the Domino warranty like the Dust Deputy:

"I would be interested to hear if this is true. Would using a 3rd party drill bit void a Festool drill warranty? Would using 3rd party abrasives void the warranty on a Festool sander? What about other brand saw blades on TS, Kapex and jigsaws? I am not trying to be smart or argumentative, I really want to know. I do not, and have not, used any accessory or attachment other than what Festool offers, but it would be nice to know what is considered okay by Festool.

Daniel"

 

[Administrator_JSVN]

Let me begin by stating that I'm not a mechanical engineer and don't know the potential for personal injury and/or damage to the machine that may exist when using the products in question. What I do know is that Festool's tools go through rigorous testing for safety by an independent laboratory. The same is likely not true for most third party accessories.

It is possible that Germany did not offer the smaller diameter cutters because of possible safety issues due to bits sustaining too much force at those OPMs (oscillations per minute). But, I don't know the reasons why and that would only be speculation on my part. Of course some would say that it's to force people who need the full range of tenon sizes to buy both Domino models. I have several reasons in mind why that's likely not the case.

Here's a quote directly from our warranty that addresses this topic. I don't want to offer a lot of interpretation of this statement either because law is also not my profession.  [smile]

Festool does not condone nor support the use of any non- Festool engineered, designed, and manufactured accessories or consumables with Festool products. Use of any non-Festool products may affect performance or void the warranty. Festool is not responsible for any damages or losses incurred and user assumes all risk and responsibility with non-Festool derived products.

Regarding abrasives, I think you need to gauge the potential for a third party accessory damaging your too, requiring service or repairl. With abrasives, the risk is probably lower, for instance.

In the case of the Dust Deputy, there is very strong evidence and many documented incidents of that product recently damaging CT electronics due to static buildup and discharge. That is a definitive example of warranty being void by a third party accessory and the tool's owner would be responsible for damages.

I don't want to discourage enterprising companies or members from developing products that compliment our tools, but I also don't want someone to get hurt or damage their tool. That doesn't mean that either of those things will happen, but that they could happen and is not directed specifically toward the manufacturer Domino cutters and adapter or any other third party accessory.

Shane

 

[Runhard]

Thanks Shane!

I was asking in all seriousness. At first when I read about the bit adapter I thought it would be cool to buy the DF700 and sell my DF500, but after thinking about it more and reading your response I have changed my mind. If I decide to buy the DF700 I will keep my DF500 also. I am totally sold on the Festool abrasives and probably have enough to last 10 or more years  [big grin]  I don't know why anyone would want to use anything but Festool abrasives, they are awesome. I also have the 98 piece centrotec set and forstner bit set, so I'm good for drilling. I'm happy with Festool's offerings, but I just wanted to get a better understanding of their warranty guidelines.

Thanks again,

Daniel

 

[Stephen B]

Let me begin by stating that I'm not a mechanical engineer and don't know the potential for personal injury and/or damage to the machine that may exist when using the products in question. What I do know is that Festool's tools go through rigorous testing for safety by an independent laboratory. The same is likely not true for most third party accessories.

It is possible that Germany did not offer the smaller diameter cutters because of possible safety issues due to bits sustaining too much force at those OPMs (oscillations per minute). But, I don't know the reasons why and that would only be speculation on my part. Of course some would say that it's to force people who need the full range of tenon sizes to buy both Domino models. I have several reasons in mind why that's likely not the case.

Here's a quote directly from our warranty that addresses this topic. I don't want to offer a lot of interpretation of this statement either because law is also not my profession.  [smile]

Festool does not condone nor support the use of any non- Festool engineered, designed, and manufactured accessories or consumables with Festool products. Use of any non-Festool products may affect performance or void the warranty. Festool is not responsible for any damages or losses incurred and user assumes all risk and responsibility with non-Festool derived products.

Regarding abrasives, I think you need to gauge the potential for a third party accessory damaging your too, requiring service or repairl. With abrasives, the risk is probably lower, for instance.

In the case of the Dust Deputy, there is very strong evidence and many documented incidents of that product recently damaging CT electronics due to static buildup and discharge. That is a definitive example of warranty being void by a third party accessory and the tool's owner would be responsible for damages.

I don't want to discourage enterprising companies or members from developing products that compliment our tools, but I also don't want someone to get hurt or damage their tool. That doesn't mean that either of those things will happen, but that they could happen and is not directed specifically toward the manufacturer Domino cutters and adapter or any other third party accessory.

Shane

When I saw Daniel's original post I was reminded that sometimes certain questions should not be asked!

However it did generate Shane's excellent reply and clarification. So thank you both.

In summary, any accessory that alters the performance and operation parameters of the Festool tool, can void your warranty.

Consequently this has assisted me in my thoughts regarding a Domino 500 or 700 and I will not be buying any vac accessory, particularly as my vac is now well out of warranty and going strong. Even my wife uses it in preference to our domestic vac!

 

[Brice Burrell]

When I saw Daniel's original post I was reminded that sometimes certain questions should not be asked!

However it did generate Shane's excellent reply and clarification. So thank you both.

In summary, any accessory that alters the performance and operation parameters of the Festool tool, can void your warranty.

Consequently this has assisted me in my thoughts regarding a Domino 500 or 700 and I will not be buying any vac accessory, particularly as my vac is now well out of warranty and going strong. Even my wife uses it in preference to our domestic vac!

That's what I was thinking too.  I don't think it's best to prompt Festool to make a public stance on warranty.  They'll have to put out a conservative response and/or force them to adopt a no third party product policy.  If this issue is out of the public eye then it stays a case by case policy.  Plus, I think a little common sense goes a long way in deciding what third party accessories to use and ones that are more likely to void the warranty.       

 

[Runhard]

I wasn't trying to start anything. I wanted to know before I spend $1200 on a tool if using a 3rd party adapter would void the warranty, as someone else mentioned. I am smart enough to realize that using a 3rd party abrasive or drill bit would not void the warranty.

 

[jacko9]

Thanks Shane, your explanation makes perfect sense and is a very reasonable approach for Festool to take. 

Jack 

 

[Timtool]

i recall that the manual here says using non festool abrasives voids the warranty, but in reality that would be impossible to prove unless you bring it in with non Festool abrasives on the sander. And from my experience with service, they are not the kind to nitpick at all. I had repairs done covered by warranty where i could have been blamed for it had they asked any questions.

 

[JuliMor]

As to third party cyclone dust collection, I don't think it has been definitively determined that inserting one between the tool and CT vac is the sole cause of failed circuit boards, or even the cause at all.  At least one owner here says he never used any third party accessories yet the circuit board on his CT vacuum failed.  Also, I have not seen anywhere where Festool has explained why they sell non-antistatic hoses and tubes if it is critical that the path from tool to vacuum be antistatic, and that by not making it so, the circuitry in the vacuum is exposed to failure through static charges.

If Festool knows that third party accessories can cause tool failure or create unsafe working conditions, they owe it to their customers to make an official statement, and not just say using third party accessories may void your warranty.

 

[jacko9]

As to third party cyclone dust collection, I don't think it has been definitively determined that inserting one between the tool and CT vac is the sole cause of failed circuit boards, or even the cause at all.  At least one owner here says he never used any third party accessories yet the circuit board on his CT vacuum failed.  Also, I have not seen anywhere where Festool has explained why they sell non-antistatic hoses and tubes if it is critical that the path from tool to vacuum be antistatic, and that by not making it so, the circuitry in the vacuum is exposed to failure through static charges.

If Festool knows that third party accessories can cause tool failure or create unsafe working conditions, they owe it to their customers to make an official statement, and not just say using third party accessories may void your warranty.

I agree.

Jack

 

[Administrator_JSVN]

As to third party cyclone dust collection, I don't think it has been definitively determined that inserting one between the tool and CT vac is the sole cause of failed circuit boards, or even the cause at all.  At least one owner here says he never used any third party accessories yet the circuit board on his CT vacuum failed.  Also, I have not seen anywhere where Festool has explained why they sell non-antistatic hoses and tubes if it is critical that the path from tool to vacuum be antistatic, and that by not making it so, the circuitry in the vacuum is exposed to failure through static charges.

If Festool knows that third party accessories can cause tool failure or create unsafe working conditions, they owe it to their customers to make an official statement, and not just say using third party accessories may void your warranty.

Julie, with all due respect, and I'm definitely not trying to be difficult here, I did let you know. Let me say it again... If you chose to use a Dust Deputy and there is a failure of the electronics due to static discharge, it will void your warranty and you will be responsible for the repair at your own expense. There are enough documented cases at this point in the past months, that we know the DD is causing problems for whatever reason. You would need to talk to Oneida (manufacturer of the Dust Deputy) for a statement or explanation.

I also said that, if for any reason, you should have an issue that results in repairs being needed as a result of using a Festool non-antistatic hose, we would cover that under warranty. But at the same time, I've never heard of such an occurrence.

As for the single instance you referred to where the DD wasn't involved, there are failures with any product, even the best ones.

It's not possible or practical for us to know about all of the possible third-party accessories that exist, nevertheless test them and provide a statement regarding their likelihood to damage your tool. Just like if you create a piece of furniture and your customer uses a cleaner or other product that damages the finish, you wouldn't want to be held responsible.

 

[Rick Christopherson]

As to third party cyclone dust collection, I don't think it has been definitively determined that inserting one between the tool and CT vac is the sole cause of failed circuit boards, or even the cause at all. 

Julie,
I am an Electrical Engineer with a background in electronic systems and static electricity. I did already address your questions in other threads in which you were actively participating. During the time that those threads were active and you were participating, it did not slip my notice that you sidestepped my comments at the time they were made.

Long before I came to realize that the Dust Deputy problem was more prevalent, I did fully explain why it causes known problems, and when those problems can and cannot be mitigated. I also specifically addressed the differences between using antistatic and non-antistatic hoses. I recommend that you go back and reread my postings on this topic in those other threads a little more closely.

The more I look into this situation, the more I realize that it is not just a limited problem. The more I am learning about this, the stronger my stance is siding toward advising people to not use a DD with any electronically controlled vac; Festool or not.

Even though the risks can be mitigated, the complexity of explaining how or when become fairly complex. So the advise given to one individual for his specific setup, may be the wrong advise for the next person reading that advise. There are many variables. That's why it can't be narrowed down to a single, simple answer. Nevertheless, because of the number of unknown variables, I am beginning to formulate the single answer of, "just don't use a DD with an electronically controlled vac."

 

[ridgenj]

Dear all,

I might be repeating myself but I believe that Oneida needs to address this issue.

I have a brand new DD that I never installed, not because of warranty issues or not willing to spend another 200 dollars on a board.

Chris and others  can address better how electricity behave  but it is for sure that by accelerating small particles you can build up significant currents that might crawl all over.

You do not necessarily need to be hit by a high voltage current to die.
Low voltage entering your body from the wrong arm, having a pacemaker or an aberrant bundle of Hiss, to name some factors that can bring you into ventricular fibrillation and you are done without immediate help.

Once again, the US is a free country and we make our own decisions. All disputants are right, it just depends from which angle you are  coming from.

My own preservation instinct prevails over rational explanations or better, the lack of.

Have all a nice weekend an enjoy woodworking and stay green.

Cheers
Luis

 

[JuliMor]

Shane,

I know what you said but I did not know if you were the official spokesperson for Festool or not.  If you are, I apologize for not accepting your statements as the company's official position on the static issue.  But are you saying, "Do not insert third party dust collection accessories between the tool and vacuum. Doing so will result in circuitry failure."  ??  If so, it's case closed.  And I think CT owners need to know that.

Rick,

I didn't sidestep your comments.  I think we were looking at things differently.  If I understood you correctly, you were saying there is a possibility static buildup using 3rd party accessories could cause component failure.  I was asking if that is a known fact.  An an engineer, I'm sure you know those are two different things, suspecting and knowing.  Shane said these boards can fail so until you know what exactly causes the failure, you can't say it was the 3rd party accessory.  Most would probably deny using one anyway, so how can you really know unless you do in-house testing?  I also hope I also made it clear that I'm an electrician, not an electronics expert, and was asking if there was any definitive evidence that 3rd party accessories create damaging static charges whereas Festool products do not?  All I have ever read definitively is answers in regard to warranty.  I have also read that Festool is pretty lenient when it comes to warranty issues.  So how much does the warranty issue really come into play?

Luis,

It would be nice if Oneida and other vac-cyclone manufacturers alerted their prospective customers that their products might destroy the electronics in their expensive dust collectors, but we all know that will never happen.  They are trying to sell their products.  And since Oneida sells a product specifically designed for the Festool CT, you know you'll never hear a peep out of them.  So really, if anyone is going to do it, we will have to leave it to the vac manufacturers to warn their customers.

Lastly, I want to make it clear this issue doesn't affect me at all.  I LOVE the way my CT vac works.  I have no desire to put some tower on top of it to lug around or mess with dumping the fine dust out.  I like the way the systainers stack and lock on top of the CT.  And I don't mind buying the bags.  But I see so many woodworkers drool over these cyclone units and the get goosebumps over the fact dust isn't making it into their $7 bags.  I guess I just think they need to know that inserting these "marvels" into their system could result in electronic failure.  Is that so bad? 

 

[Brice Burrell]

Julie, I can't figure out why you're pushing this issue.  Shane, and then Rick, offered opinions that should satisfy anyone to whether using the DD is advisable or not.  Regardless if it is a certainty or not the evidence strongly suggests it is and Festool already said they will not warranty the vac with the DD installed.  What more should one need?  Do you, or anyone else, really think Festool should spend their own money testing a third party accessory to see if it is compatible?  I don't think they should.  Maybe you'd be willing to fund the testing.  Hey Rick what do think that kind of testing might cost so Julie has an idea of what kinda check she'll need to cut. [tongue]

Sorry Julie, I'm having fun with this, I don't mean any offense.   

 

[skids]

As to third party cyclone dust collection, I don't think it has been definitively determined that inserting one between the tool and CT vac is the sole cause of failed circuit boards, or even the cause at all.  At least one owner here says he never used any third party accessories yet the circuit board on his CT vacuum failed.  Also, I have not seen anywhere where Festool has explained why they sell non-antistatic hoses and tubes if it is critical that the path from tool to vacuum be antistatic, and that by not making it so, the circuitry in the vacuum is exposed to failure through static charges.

If Festool knows that third party accessories can cause tool failure or create unsafe working conditions, they owe it to their customers to make an official statement, and not just say using third party accessories may void your warranty.

Hogwash...I don't want Festool spending ANY of their R&D budgets on this bologna. They make several vac sizes, buy up if you want more capacity.

 

[barnowl]

Julie, I can't figure out why you're pushing this issue.  Shane, and then Rick, offered opinions that should satisfy anyone to whether using the DD is advisable or not.  Regardless if it is a certainty or not the evidence strongly suggests it is and Festool already said they will not warranty the vac with the DD installed.  What more should one need?  Do you, or anyone else, really think Festool should spend their own money testing a third party accessory to see if it is compatible?  I don't think they should.  Maybe you'd be willing to fund the testing.  Hey Rick what do think that kind of testing might cost so Julie has an idea of what kinda check she'll need to cut. [tongue]

Sorry Julie, I'm having fun with this, I don't mean any offense.     

Brice, I really don't see her as pushing it, just discussing it, and defining her position by this:

....Lastly, I want to make it clear this issue doesn't affect me at all.  I LOVE the way my CT vac works.  I have no desire to put some tower on top of it to lug around or mess with dumping the fine dust out.  I like the way the systainers stack and lock on top of the CT.  And I don't mind buying the bags.  But I see so many woodworkers drool over these cyclone units and the get goosebumps over the fact dust isn't making it into their $7 bags.  I guess I just think they need to know that inserting these "marvels" into their system could result in electronic failure.  Is that so bad? 

Which I completely agree with.

I've seen other threads extolling the cyclones, and can't for the life of me see whay people spend $200 (28 times the price of ONE bag) with the given hassles of dealing with dumping etc to reduce buying bags at $7 a pop.

Same opinion of the expensive "reusable bag". The beauty of the regular bags is the fact that you remove it, and all it's associated dust, and just toss it.

And especially now, with the redesigned cloth bags, that last a looooong time.

Just my  [2cents]

 

[Administrator_JSVN]

Shane,

I know what you said but I did not know if you were the official spokesperson for Festool or not.  If you are, I apologize for not accepting your statements as the company's official position on the static issue.  But are you saying, "Do not insert third party dust collection accessories between the tool and vacuum. Doing so will result in circuitry failure."  ??  If so, it's case closed.  And I think CT owners need to know that.

Julie, as an employee of Festool USA and administrator of this forum, I'm here as a resource to the members of the forum in whatever capacity I can serve. I'm the only employee of Festool that posts on the forum other than the rare post by Christian Oltzscher. I guess some might consider that makes me an official spokesperson. This forum is monitored by employees of Festool USA, Festool UK, Festool Australia, Festool Germany and maybe others on a daily basis. I'm pretty confident that if I said something that didn't align with the position of Festool, I would quickly receive a phone call or email.

I'm not saying don't use a Dust Deputy or other product. I'm saying do so at your own risk. If doing so results in damage to the tool, Festool is not liable.

I feel like I'm not saying anything new, only repeating myself and rephrasing it in a different way. Hopefully, there is some clarity on the topic. At this point, I think I've adequately stated our position. I hope I did so in a way that wasn't offensive to any third party accessory manufacturers or any of our customers. Thanks.

Shane

 

[ridgenj]

Shane,
As an employee of Festool posting here you are their voice  and as an user of FOG I agree to accept  it, otherwise I won't be posting my opinion here.

I am using an OF2200 upside down in my CMS table and this is at my own risk. I know it works with my cousin's one back in Augsburg and I am sure  it will be ok.

I understand that Festool can't take responsibility for products not being produced by FS and tested accordingly at your tearing labs. Furthermore, is not your duty to secure  compatibility  with other third party products, irrespective of  how much FS charges for their products. This is normal business practice. When Mr, Marino offers to buy back a FS product that he didn't even sold, this is commitment from your retailers to your products and company.

I bought a product from Oneida that might have been misrepresented or/and  have  deceiving claims. In the US this can be an expensive journey for a company but probably they believe that their users are not litigious. Another FOG member lamented rightly that the Dust Director manufactures are not responsive at all. Frying your board due to a static electrical build up is a reparable  outcome, in a "wrong place , wrong person" situation  can be serious and for sure Festool is not to be blamed about it.

As much as this and many other fora are being monitored by the sponsoring companies, the same is being done by consumer advocates and liability case law firms.

I feel sorry that your very clear statements continue to be challenged and I suggest we should move on for the good of all of us.
Cheers
Luis

 

[Rick Christopherson]

I feel sorry that your very clear statements continue to be challenged and I suggest we should move on for the good of all of us.

I don't think that is fair to say either. There is nothing wrong with questioning information, no matter what the source. I may not like it when someone questions what I say, but that doesn't mean it is wrong to do so.

I'm reminded of a time when I questioned one of my electrical engineering college professors during a particular lecture. I couldn't put my finger on why, but something didn't sit well with me about the material he was teaching that day. I kept asking seemingly stupid questions, as I was just trying to figure out what bothered me about the information. The professor eventually got fed up with my questions and suggested that we speak after class, and he would "help me" understand this information better.  [unsure]

About 45 minutes into the lecture, it finally clicked in my mind what had been troubling me from the beginning. Knowing that I was already treading on really thin ice, I asked a final, yet very specific question. The professor scratched his head for a few minutes, and then said, "Hmmm, I'm going to have to come back to this on Monday."

Well, when he came back on Monday, he apologized and explained that the entire premise for his lecture was based on a false assumption that no one had ever noticed before. The entire topic would be removed from the course syllabus, and we would not be tested on it. 

So yeah, questioning information is not necessarily a bad thing to do.