A Few Questions -- Planes and chisels

[Bob Marino]

Started from another topic. This is actually runhard ' s question.

Dan,

 I would offer these sugestions/advice and this may sound crazy coming from a Festool dealer. That advice is get a block plane and a smoothing plane, rather get a good block plane and a good smoothing plane - Lee Valley, Lie Nielson make excellent ones.  Perhaps a really fine rasp. Hands tools are quite essential, and often times even more "fun" to use than power tools. Don't think you need every Festool tool to make furniture.  It's a hobby - enjoy the show.

 Bob

EDIT> Topic management

 

[tiralie]

Dan,
  I would offer these sugestions/advice and this may sound crazy coming from a Festool dealer. That advice is get a block plane and a smoothing plane, rather get a good block plane and a good smoothing plane - Lee Valley, Lie Nielson make excellent ones.  Perhaps a really fine rasp. Hands tools are quite essential, and often times even more "fun" to use than power tools. Don't think you need every Festool tool to make furniture.  It's a hobby - enjoy the show.

I agree. You might want to consider a set of   ]Mortising chisels.

 

[Bob Marino]

Dan,
 I would offer these sugestions/advice and this may sound crazy coming from a Festool dealer. That advice is get a block plane and a smoothing plane, rather get a good block plane and a good smoothing plane - Lee Valley, Lie Nielson make excellent ones.  Perhaps a really fine rasp. Hands tools are quite essential, and often times even more "fun" to use than power tools. Don't think you need every Festool tool to make furniture.  It's a hobby - enjoy the show.

I agree. You might want to consider a set of  ]Mortising chisels.

[/quote]
Yep, chisels - another essential tool.
Bob

 

[Runhard]

Dan,
 I would offer these sugestions/advice and this may sound crazy coming from a Festool dealer. That advice is get a block plane and a smoothing plane, rather get a good block plane and a good smoothing plane - Lee Valley, Lie Nielson make excellent ones.  Perhaps a really fine rasp. Hands tools are quite essential, and often times even more "fun" to use than power tools. Don't think you need every Festool tool to make furniture.  It's a hobby - enjoy the show.

I agree. You might want to consider a set of  ]Mortising chisels.

Yep, chisels - another essential tool.
Bob

  [/quote]

This might need to be moved into the "hand tool" thread, but:

Should I get the standard or low angle http://www.lie-nielsen.com/catalog.php?sku=60_5

Or regular block plane? http://www.lie-nielsen.com/catalog.php?grp=1221

Which smoothing plane: LN or LV? 4 or 4-1/2?

For hand work I already have:
Blue Spruce- 5 piece bench chisel set, mallet, large and small marking knives, and marking gauge.
LN- dovetail and crosscut saws, dovetail marker and card scrapers.
Knew Concepts- 5" fretsaw.
Veritas- (2)marking gauges and MKII honeing guide.
BCTW- (2)Japanese pull saws and 2 saw blades that I need to build handles for (I bought what I could during their clearance sale.)
Starrett- 6" combination square and 4" double square.
DMT-sharpening stones and leather strop.

I'm thinking about getting some more chisels, some that aren't as nice but will still do a good job (I don't want to damage my Blue Spruce ones  [unsure]) and some specialty chisels. What are more useful, fishtail or skew?

 

[Bob Marino]

Dan,
 I would offer these sugestions/advice and this may sound crazy coming from a Festool dealer. That advice is get a block plane and a smoothing plane, rather get a good block plane and a good smoothing plane - Lee Valley, Lie Nielson make excellent ones.  Perhaps a really fine rasp. Hands tools are quite essential, and often times even more "fun" to use than power tools. Don't think you need every Festool tool to make furniture.  It's a hobby - enjoy the show.

I agree. You might want to consider a set of  ]Mortising chisels.

Yep, chisels - another essential tool.
Bob
 

 

This might need to be moved into the "hand tool" thread, but:

Should I get the standard or low angle http://www.lie-nielsen.com/catalog.php?sku=60_5

Or regular block plane? http://www.lie-nielsen.com/catalog.php?grp=1221

Which smoothing plane: LN or LV? 4 or 4-1/2?

For hand work I already have:
Blue Spruce- 5 piece bench chisel set, mallet, large and small marking knives, and marking gauge.
LN- dovetail and crosscut saws, dovetail marker and card scrapers.
Knew Concepts- 5" fretsaw.
Veritas- (2)marking gauges and MKII honeing guide.
BCTW- (2)Japanese pull saws and 2 saw blades that I need to build handles for (I bought what I could during their clearance sale.)
Starrett- 6" combination square and 4" double square.
DMT-sharpening stones and leather strop.

I'm thinking about getting some more chisels, some that aren't as nice but will still do a good job (I don't want to damage my Blue Spruce ones  [unsure]) and some specialty chisels. What are more useful, fishtail or skew?
[/quote]

This may well be bettered answered in the Hand Tool section, but I would get an adjustable block plane rather than the one you linked to.
Not qualified regards low angle vs standard angle, but you can always call LV and LN.

Good chisels are meant to be used and can take the pounding.
Actually, except for a couple of planes, you have a nice assortment of hand tools.
Same admonition about hand tools that I mentioned about Festool tools  - you don't need every hand tool
To make furniture. I understand the temptation - over the years I bought more tools than I actually used.

Bob

 

[mouppe]

I have the Lie Nielsen bronze low angle block plane. Bought an extra blade for it which I sharpen at 35 degrees, making it a standard angle block plane too. Changing blades takes less than 5 seconds.

I also have the Veritas adjustable low angle block plane. Rarely take it out of the tool cabinet to be honest. It's just too heavy for me to use as a block plane. Jack of all trades, master of none. If it's the first and last plane you'll buy, then it's excellent. Otherwise, there are better, more specific options.

I prefer the 4 to a 4 1/2, but then again I also use a 5 1/2 a lot. I feel like a 4 1/2 is an average of the two without being as good as either.

P.S. I'm deeply envious of your Blue Spruce collection.

 

[tiralie]

I do have some hand tools, but no planes yet. I decided not to buy any machinery until I move and can have a decent shop (that's not in a basement.)  

Daniel:
While you can go nuts with hand tools, you really should have one, even if it's a cheap Stanley Adjustable Block Plane . I have (this) one in my tool box and when it's sharp it works well.

My favorite block plane is the LN 601/2 low angle block plane. Beautiful tool to use on end grain.
If you like big planes I think the L-N 51/2 smoothing plane is the one to get but for all round usefulness (jointing and planing) the L-N Low angle Jack plane is a workhorse.

I just noticed that my post for the Ray Isles Mortising chisels didn't include a link.
Tim

 

[Runhard]

I do have some hand tools, but no planes yet. I decided not to buy any machinery until I move and can have a decent shop (that's not in a basement.)  

Daniel:
While you can go nuts with hand tools, you really should have one, even if it's a cheap Stanley Adjustable Block Plane . I have (this) one in my tool box and when it's sharp it works well.

My favorite block plane is the LN 601/2 low angle block plane. Beautiful tool to use on end grain.
If you like big planes I think the L-N 51/2 smoothing plane is the one to get but for all round usefulness (jointing and planing) the L-N Low angle Jack plane is a workhorse.

I just noticed that my post for the Ray Isles Mortising chisels didn't include a link.
Tim

Thanks for the link.

I have never owned a plane or really used one before. Too many choices and decisions  [eek]

 

[Bob Marino]

Dan,

You like quality tools.  I would echo what Tim said about the LN
Low angle block. It is very highly regarded.

Bob

 

[tiralie]

I have never owned a plane or really used one before. Too many choices and decisions  [eek]

Start with the L-N low angle block plane you won't be disappointed.
Veritas and Stanley Bailey also make very nice high end block planes, I just have never used them.
It makes the decision easy and you can go from there.
You will wonder why you never got one before.
It has a lot of uses from chamfering edges to cleaning up end grain.
Tim

 

[regdor1999]

This is what I'm thinking about ordering today: Festool MFS 400, LR32 set and FS1400/2-LR32 rail. Lie-Nielsen "The Plane set" (low angle jack plane, 4-1/2 smoothing plane and low angle/adjustable mouth block plane.) Veritas router plane and fence.

What do you think?

Daniel

That is great first set of planes.  I have the the Lie-Nielsen's mentioned (the 4 instead of the 4 1/2 smoother, and the monster #8), and they are wonderful tools.  The quality is great.  If you decide to sell them later, they also retain their value very well.  The Veritas router plane is excellent too (as is LN's).  If you get one of the small router planes, go with the LN instead of the Veritas:  The shaft is square rather than round, helping to keep the blade straight.  I had the Veriras small one, and didn't like how the blade could move.  For the large size, either one is a good choice.  Enjoy!

 

[tiralie]

If you get one of the small router planes, go with the LN instead of the Veritas:  The shaft is square rather than round, helping to keep the blade straight.  I had the Veritas small one, and didn't like how the blade could move.  For the large size, either one is a good choice.  Enjoy!

Agreed.
Tim

 

[mouppe]

This is what I'm thinking about ordering today: Festool MFS 400, LR32 set and FS1400/2-LR32 rail. Lie-Nielsen "The Plane set" (low angle jack plane, 4-1/2 smoothing plane and low angle/adjustable mouth block plane.) Veritas router plane and fence.

What do you think?

Daniel

Ln now make a jack rabbet plane- go for that instead of the jack. Its exactly the same as the jack but it doubles as a rabbet Plane.

I see I'm clearly in a minority in that I prefer non adjustable block planes!

#4 or 4 1/2 is down to personal preference.

 

[Runhard]

This is what I'm thinking about ordering today: Festool MFS 400, LR32 set and FS1400/2-LR32 rail. Lie-Nielsen "The Plane set" (low angle jack plane, 4-1/2 smoothing plane and low angle/adjustable mouth block plane.) Veritas router plane and fence.

What do you think?

Daniel

That is great first set of planes.  I have the the Lie-Nielsen's mentioned (the 4 instead of the 4 1/2 smoother, and the monster #8), and they are wonderful tools.  The quality is great.  If you decide to sell them later, they also retain their value very well.  The Veritas router plane is excellent too (as is LN's).  If you get one of the small router planes, go with the LN instead of the Veritas:  The shaft is square rather than round, helping to keep the blade straight.  I had the Veriras small one, and didn't like how the blade could move.  For the large size, either one is a good choice.  Enjoy!

Open or closed throat router plane?

 

[ScotF]

Daniel,

Lots of good advice here...I have a good assortment of hand tools and my favorite plane by far is the little LN 102 block plane -- this is small but very capable.  It is great for all kinds of things you would need a block plane for and it fits in an apron pocket.  To me it just feels so great in the hand.  I own the adjustable one too and honestly use the smaller 102 15 - 20 times more than the latter.  The Low-Angle Jack or the Rabbet Plane as Richard mentions is great at so many tasks and you might find that you can do most of your work with just those two.  One thing that makes low-angle planes so nice is their versatility -- different angles on the plane can dramatically change performance for soft-wood, hard-wood and tricky grain.  Add a toothed blade or one with a camber and you can tackle lots of work.  It makes a very nice smoother too (although I think that the 4 1/2 is pure perfection in this category).

Scot

 

[Runhard]

I have a topic on the festool tools and accessories page, but it has turned into a mostly hand tool discussion, so I will try to pick it up here.

I'm probably going with LN over LV.

What is better an open or closed throat router plane?
What is more useful, skew or fishtail chisels?
What is the best block plane, low angle, standard, adjustable,...?
Smoothing plane, 4, 4-1/2, 5,...?
Low angle jack or low angle jack rabbet?

I do not have the option to try any of these out in person.

Thanks,

Daniel

 

[ScotF]

I have a topic on the festool tools and accessories page, but it has turned into a mostly hand tool discussion, so I will try to pick it up here.

I'm probably going with LN over LV.

What is better an open or closed throat router plane?
What is more useful, or fishtail chisels?
What is the best block plane, low angle, standard, adjustable,...?
Smoothing plane, 4, 4-1/2, 5,...?
Low angle jack or low angle jack rabbet?

I do not have the option to try any of these out in person.

Thanks,

Daniel

Hi Daniel,

The router plane issue really comes down to stability when working on edges (where the wood might go into the space) verses visibility.  Closed is better for edge stability and open is better for visibility.  Christopher Schwartz wrote about this in is Blog at some point if memory serves and I think that PW might have written an article too.

I prefer low angle block planes and as I mentioned, love the LN 102.  Does everything I have asked of a block plane.

Smoother -- 4 1/2 -- it is bigger and weighs more, but wider means more efficient and the weight can help you push through tough grain.

Jack - the low-angle is awesome -- again, so useful for so many different tasks.  Not as wide as the 5 1/2, but more versatile IMHO with the different blades and sharpening you can do on it.

For chisels, I guess it depends on what you want to do with them...I have a pretty complete bench chisel set and a mortise chisel and that is it -- I have done lots of work with these from hand-cut dovetails to squaring mortises to trimming tenons.  Some chisels get specialized and excel at certain tasks. 

Hope this helps.

Scot

 

[JayStPeter]

I have a topic on the festool tools and accessories page, but it has turned into a mostly hand tool discussion, so I will try to pick it up here.

I'm probably going with LN over LV.

What is better an open or closed throat router plane?
What is more useful, or fishtail chisels?
What is the best block plane, low angle, standard, adjustable,...?
Smoothing plane, 4, 4-1/2, 5,...?
Low angle jack or low angle jack rabbet?

I do not have the option to try any of these out in person.

Thanks,

Daniel

I think the answer to all is "it depends".  But ...

What is better an open or closed throat router plane?
Reviewers tended to pick the LV over the LN because it was closed.  LN now has both.  There are certain situations where each is desired.  Search the pop woodworking blog, I think there is some good info on the differences in the reviews of the LN closed throat.

What is more useful, or fishtail chisels?
Don't know what the thing before "or" is, but I'll say chances are the answer is not fish tail.

What is the best block plane, low angle, standard, adjustable,...?
The most popular is low angle with adjustable throat.  I have the LV version and the LN rabbeting block, which is also low angle.  Can't answer why I'd want a standard angle as I haven't found any issues with what I have.

Smoothing plane, 4, 4-1/2, 5,...?
I think the most versatile as a smoother is a 4.  It is best for small pieces and works for larger.  The others are larger, can be harder to push.  But, they are heavier which helps in some situations.  I'd say LN #4 bronze.

Low angle jack or low angle jack rabbet?
I'd say it's a pretty unusual situation when you need a rabbet plane that large.  I used to be a huge proponent of low angle planes over standard.  But my default plane has become my #5 over the low angle jack.  I recently got a #4 to see if I prefer it over my low angle smoother.

Also, I wouldn't discount LV entirely.  I like their low angle stuff equal to LN at a lesser cost.  Handles are a little "rougher" feeling (for lack of a better description), but they work equally well.  I really like my LN chisels, but the new technology LV ones are the new rage.  I'm hoping to pick up a large one of those as my largest LN is 3/4".  As I said, read the reviews on router planes, I don't have one yet but am leaning toward the LV.  I was planning a back-to-back comparison, but missed the Baltimore woodworking show this year.

 

[JayStPeter]

Daniel,

There's a pretty big learning curve to hand tools.  I suspect you'll be frustrated if you go spend the $1K to get all the stuff you're talking about here.  I'd recommend getting regular bench chisels and a block plane first (LN rabbeting block is a good first plane IMO).  Also, some sort of sharpening method is crucial to being able to use this stuff and where much of the frustration lies.  You're likely to spend lots of time and money on sharpening until you find something you're willing to stick with.  I think most of us stick with a method because we're tired of buying different sharpening equipment and figure one of them will have to do.  Ask 10 woodworkers what the best sharpening method is and you'll get 15 answers.

You're used to doing things a different way and it takes time to come around to realizing when it is easier to use a hand tool over a power tool, and be willing to experiment to figure that out.  I bought a bunch of handplanes and didn't actually use them much for several years.  When I did I often had bad results and ruined some wood.  I was pretty aggrivated I chose to buy that stuff over other equipment for a long time until I got over the learning curves and had occasion to use them on projects to build my skills up rather than jump into trying to smooth an exotic panel ... what the heck, the one I used at the WW show made it glass smooth and mine just shreds it ... well, I'll just get out a sander to fix this.

What I do now is plan up front.  If I'm building something where it makes sense, I'll decide to try a new technique prior to building it, make sure I get the tools I want, get them tuned and practice a bit.  Buying tools and having them lay around while you really need something else is very frustrating.  For example, if you plan to make a dining table using dominoes, your new router and rabbet planes are going to sit around literally gathering dust while you wish you bought a couple longer clamps or something.

All that said, you did forget handsaws.  Another very useful handtool (hmmm no devil smiley on this board, so this will have to do  [tongue])

 

[Runhard]

Daniel,

There's a pretty big learning curve to hand tools.  I suspect you'll be frustrated if you go spend the $1K to get all the stuff you're talking about here.  I'd recommend getting regular bench chisels and a block plane first (LN rabbeting block is a good first plane IMO).  Also, some sort of sharpening method is crucial to being able to use this stuff and where much of the frustration lies.  You're likely to spend lots of time and money on sharpening until you find something you're willing to stick with.  I think most of us stick with a method because we're tired of buying different sharpening equipment and figure one of them will have to do.  Ask 10 woodworkers what the best sharpening method is and you'll get 15 answers.

You're used to doing things a different way and it takes time to come around to realizing when it is easier to use a hand tool over a power tool, and be willing to experiment to figure that out.  I bought a bunch of handplanes and didn't actually use them much for several years.  When I did I often had bad results and ruined some wood.  I was pretty aggrivated I chose to buy that stuff over other equipment for a long time until I got over the learning curves and had occasion to use them on projects to build my skills up rather than jump into trying to smooth an exotic panel ... what the heck, the one I used at the WW show made it glass smooth and mine just shreds it ... well, I'll just get out a sander to fix this.

What I do now is plan up front.  If I'm building something where it makes sense, I'll decide to try a new technique prior to building it, make sure I get the tools I want, get them tuned and practice a bit.  Buying tools and having them lay around while you really need something else is very frustrating.  For example, if you plan to make a dining table using dominoes, your new router and rabbet planes are going to sit around literally gathering dust while you wish you bought a couple longer clamps or something.

All that said, you did forget handsaws.  Another very useful handtool (hmmm no devil smiley on this board, so this will have to do  [tongue])

Thanks for the information and I agree with you. When I started this topic over in the festool tools and accessories thread I was asking about what festools to buy to build a bed and it ended up into hand tools, so I started this topic. In the other thread i posted most of my current hand tool:

For hand tools I already have:
Blue Spruce- 5 piece bench chisel set, mallet, large and small marking knives, and marking gauge.
LN- dovetail and crosscut saws, dovetail marker and card scrapers.
Knew Concepts- 5" fretsaw.
Veritas- (2)marking gauges and MKII honeing guide.
BCTW- (2)Japanese pull saws and 2 other japanese saw blades that I need to build handles for (I bought what I could during their clearance sale.)
Starrett- 6" combination square and 4" double square.
DMT-sharpening stones and leather strop.