About The Tool Contests

  That's a good improvement. I just realize that this is the monthly
  application which made me incomfortable the most.

  Another way to foster international participation is to allow for
non-america members to win, even if there is no associated
  prize ... The question then is what you folks do with the montly
  Festool gift ? keep it for next month ?

 
Hi,

   It seems that if it were monthly, then there would not really be that much time to with hold anyway. Plus I would be inclined to simply work on something until ready wether it was monthly or not.   Won't the everything in all the time idea build up too many choices to be voted on?  If there are say 100 automatic entries, and say 20 of them captured most  of the votes , I think that fairly often the winning entry would have a very small proportion of the votes. I know this should be fun,  and the recognition of peers is really the point. But winning with say 10 - 20% of the vote  sort of takes the recognition out of it too.     The thing about a competition is ....   that it is a competition, no matter how you slice it.   
   I don't have any solutions to offer :(    And I think this is a great idea in general..  You may just have to do it and see how it pans out.

Seth
   
 
mhch said:
  That's a good improvement. I just realize that this is the monthly
  application which made me incomfortable the most.

  Another way to foster international participation is to allow for
non-america members to win, even if there is no associated
  prize ... The question then is what you folks do with the montly
  Festool gift ? keep it for next month ?

Hi,

      Not that I would not love to win the  router or any other tool for that matter.   But couldn't the prises all be something that works everywere Festool is sold?  Most of the consumables, systainers, MFS and some other stuff too.   It would be a real plus if this could really be international!

Seth
 
Matthew, I very much like the change in your rules but do have a question. Nick and others had mentioned cool jigs that they were going to submit. You said something that made me think that maybe jigs were not applicable right now. And of course this new change in the rules could obviate this issue anyway. Thanks, Fred
 
mhch said:
  Another way to foster international participation is to allow for
non-america members to win,  ... The question then is what you folks do with the montly
  Festool gift ?

The prizes for woodworking excellence would be accumulated until the Australians had enough to justify them paying for a shipping container.  If, for instance, 20 tools were enough, they'd be able to get their prizes in less than two years!  If they can get a good price on transformers, they might want to throw those in the container as well.

:P

Ned
 
Let me tell you about my friend Al.  Every word is true, except his name and one connection I'll make later.

Al had a diving accident when he was 19.  Since then he has been a quadriplegic.  He has enough control of his arms that he can drive a specially-equipped vehicle, and in fact has driven all over the vast state of California.  He does not have any fine motor coordination in his hands--he can't write without stylus and keyboard, and he will never be able to hold a woodworking tool, much less work with it.  He has a strong mechanical inclination and understanding--he's conceived and designed many of his own assistive devices.

Al has both an MA and an MBA (advanced degrees).  He has started and run several companies.  He's now over 65, and has scaled back a bit.  His current enterprise provides useful full-time employment for 7 people, only one of whom is needed as his caretaker.  He has raised several children who've turned out pretty well.

Al leads a full and well-rounded life, which includes hobbies.

Now the fiction:  Let's say that Al discovers Festool, and he is entranced by the engineering and design.  He begins to buy them and he participates on FOG.

What could he do besides read?  Well, he could and probably would contribute in the way that Forrest Anderson has so ably, by organizing information.  And he'd be critiquing jig designs.  And his posts would be worth reading.  And he would be a valued participant.

My point is this:  This is the Festool Owners Group, not the Festool Woodworking Group.  Even though woodworking is the major reason for the tools, it may not be the reason why someone is here.  Al's an extreme case, but some of us do have other motivations; those different points of view are useful to all, including the woodworkers.

It won't encourage thinking outside the box if only the makers of very nice boxes are rewarded.  OK, let's add some other contests--
  • Best Creative On-site Use.
  • Best Non-Woodworking Use.
  • Best Jig.
  • Best Use The Factory Never Thought Of.
  • Best Use of Festools For Production of 500 or More of Something.
  • My personal favorite-- Best Idea For Something That's Beyond The Creator's Ability To Build.  ;D
         

I want to see all of these projects and ideas, including the beautiful woodworking ones.  Limiting rewards to best of woodworking alone excludes many, many of us.  For those who don't get my sense of humor--the proposed contests above wouldn't be any better.

I agree strongly with those who point out that the no-winners-no-losers trend is damaging to society.  Graceful winning and losing needs to be taught to every child, but I don't think it needs to be taught here.  A random drawing will not affect our moral fiber.

Requiring that Festools be involved in a submitted project creates a problem:  we'll never be able to enjoy the delight of pushing a newbie off the edge of the slippery green slope by giving him his first tool!

I feel strongly that non-North American members should be able to participate fully, including winning drawings like this one.  The short-term answer may be an equivalent value of non-electrical Festool stuff sent to a non-NA winner.  The suggestion that sandpaper is a near-universal currency is hilarious, but true.  Still, I can't imagine anyone being as excited by a Domino's-worth of sandpaper as they would be by a Domino.  I hope that Festool can arrange to have the proper version of the tool available for any winner.

In my opinion, the only reasonable way to distribute goodies from Festool is by random drawing from the pool of people who both register and donate to FOG.

The current scheme has a high potential for divisiveness.  I do not think it is a good idea, or that any such contest can be somehow adjusted to become a good idea.  I will not submit a project, I will not participate in discussion of the merits of one submission or another, and I will not vote in the contest.

Ned
 
Matthew Schenker said:
I've been thinking about some of nickao's comments, specifically the point that people might withhold their projects if they know there's a contest.  I'm not sure I agree, but just in case I came up with a solution.  Instead of having monthly deadlines, I'll make it so that all projects ever posted in the "Projects" boards are eligible at any time.  Of course, if your project wins it is no longer eligible, but other than that, any project that meets the requirements can win.  Another point: people can revise their projects.  That way, if by chance someone is withholding a project for some reason, he or she can post it, then edit the post at a later date when it is "ready" and the project will be eligible.

Although some might "play the game" to try and time things, this contest should attract more people to the FOG who will hopefully have lots of projects and ideas to contribute. More members, more contributions (both in ideas and $$ to the FOG), win-win.  If someone wants to sit on their idea for 30-40 days that won't keep anyone from continuing on with what they're doing.  It'll get posted eventually, who knows maybe in an even more complete and thorough form.  No set of rules can address every concern or appease everyone.  Keep it simple, fair and easy to administer. 

I think it's great that Festool USA is contributing any prize at all, let alone monthly prizes.  As far as smaller prizes, c'mon, would you really prefer a t-shirt or a few sheets of sandpaper over a new tool.  If that's the case, I have lots of t-shirts I'll trade you.  ;D  If you win and think the prize is too much you can always sell the tool and donate the proceeds to the charity of your choice, donate the tool to a woodworking program at a school or donate the proceeds to the FOG. 

I seriously doubt if I'll ever win but I'm looking forward to the new ideas and projects that this will generate. 
 
Fred West said:
Matthew, I very much like the change in your rules but do have a question. Nick and others had mentioned cool jigs that they were going to submit. You said something that made me think that maybe jigs were not applicable right now. And of course this new change in the rules could obviate this issue anyway. Thanks, Fred

I want to keep this simple to start off, so for the first contest I'd like to just include projects.  Depending on the response, it could easily expand to jigs and other ideas in the second month.

Ned Young said:
My point is this:  This is the Festool Owners Group, not the Festool Woodworking Group.  Even though woodworking is the major reason for the tools, it may not be the reason why someone is here.  Al's an extreme case, but some of us do have other motivations; those different points of view are useful to all, including the woodworkers.

It won't encourage thinking outside the box if only the makers of very nice boxes are rewarded.  OK, let's add some other contests--
  • Best Creative On-site Use.
  • Best Non-Woodworking Use.
  • Best Jig.
  • Best Use The Factory Never Thought Of.
  • Best Use of Festools For Production of 500 or More of Something.
  • My personal favorite-- Best Idea For Something That's Beyond The Creator's Ability To Build.  ;D
         

We don't have to limit projects to woodworking.  If someone can post about another kind of project, I'd love to see it.  Regarding your list of "other contests," I'm open to ideas.  But how would you administer all those sub-categories?

Matthew
 
Re: Ned's idea of sub categories.  Perhaps a number of rotating categories, (1) per month. 

May,  Best jig.
June  Best wood working project.
July,    Best ....
Aug,    Best...
Sept,  Back to best jig.

Or something like that.

Just a thought, Dan
 
Steve-CO said:
... More members, more contributions (both in ideas and $$ to the FOG), win-win. 

... No set of rules can address every concern or appease everyone.  Keep it simple, fair and easy to administer. 

... I think it's great that Festool USA is contributing any prize at all, let alone monthly prizes. 

... I seriously doubt if I'll ever win but I'm looking forward to the new ideas and projects that this will generate. 

Steve, your thoughts mirror mine EXACTLY!

When I saw Matthew's first post about the contest, my first thought was that it was a such great idea. A win/win for everybody involved. No downside.

Maybe it's because I'm relatively new around here, but I never expected the level of discussion, nit-picking and controversy that soon followed. It brings to mind that old saying about looking a gift horse in the mouth. Especially surprising to me is the notion put forth that Festool-USA should be willing to sponsor a contest for the whole world.

Those of us that regularly read through this forum know that the collective ingenuity of the members is pretty impressive. If this contest increases the flow of those creative juices, the big winners would be those of us who mostly watch from the sidelines, gathering more information for our reference libraries. Winning a Festool would be nice but, from what I've seen around here, most of us can afford to buy any Festool product we want, and we know where to get them. Good, original ideas can be much harder to come by.

John
 
My apologies, Matthew.  My little tale, and especially when I said "My point is this:", understandably misled you.

This is the important part of my post, with a bit of emphasis to be sure it's clear:

Ned Young said:
In my opinion, the only reasonable way to distribute goodies from Festool is by random drawing from the pool of people who both register and donate to FOG.

The current scheme has a high potential for divisiveness.  I do not think it is a good idea, or that any such contest can be somehow adjusted to become a good idea.  I will not submit a project, I will not participate in discussion of the merits of one submission or another, and I will not vote in the contest.

Ned
 
Regarding the issue of divisiveness caused by the members voting on projects, would Festool like to provide judges?  Afterall, they are providing the prizes. 

I'm not advocating this thought, just thinking about it out loud,

Dan
 
Dan Rush said:
Regarding the issue of decisiveness caused by the members voting on projects, would Festool like to provide judges?  Afterall, they are providing the prizes.

We are working out a balance between connecting to Festool, and keeping a healthy distance at the same time.

On the larger point about divisiveness, I just don't see how a friendly competition like this can be divisive.  People will be posting projects just as they always have, except now there is a chance to win a Festool tool for doing it.  And since any tool from any month can be a winner, you always have a chance!

Of course, there are a lot of different people here in the forum.  Not everyone will like everything we do.  I've purposefully created a separate board for tool contests.  If you're dead-sent against tool contests, don't take part in the voting.  Of course, you can read the "Projects" boards as you always have.  Nothing there will change.  If you post a project and you don't want it to be in the contest, simply say so and I won't include it in the poll.

joraft said:
Maybe it's because I'm relatively new around here, but I never expected the level of discussion, nit-picking and controversy that soon followed. It brings to mind that old saying about looking a gift horse in the mouth. Especially surprising to me is the notion put forth that Festool-USA should be willing to sponsor a contest for the whole world.

Steve-CO said:
I think it's great that Festool USA is contributing any prize at all, let alone monthly prizes.  As far as smaller prizes, c'mon, would you really prefer a t-shirt or a few sheets of sandpaper over a new tool.  If that's the case, I have lots of t-shirts I'll trade you.  ;D  If you win and think the prize is too much you can always sell the tool and donate the proceeds to the charity of your choice, donate the tool to a woodworking program at a school or donate the proceeds to the FOG. 

Thanks John and Steve.  Yes, this really is a simple thing.  Festool has offered some tools as an incentive to member creativity, and to give the forum a boost of energy.  It's not meant to become the biggest part of the forum.  All our discussions and project postings will continue as they always have.  This just adds a little more excitement.

Matthew
 
Sanders are always a nice prize.  Since the Festool Sanders certainly have a different price tag attached to them.  Perhaps for smaller projects The DTS, RTS, and ETS would be a prize.  The specialty sanders i.e. RS2E, DX 93, ETS 150s and RAS 115, LS 130,  be in another league, and the RO's in the top league. 

THE COMMENT TO FOLLOW IS BY NO MEANS INTENDED TO BE A SALES PITCH!!!

Festool Junkie thinks that the contest idea is a super way to promote Festool Woodworking.  We especially like the Kids with Adult projects.  FJ would sponsor a contest in a heart beat with regards to the sanders.  If we went with a kids contest, the projects would NOT need to be near as elaborate as the "furniture type thing".

Contest for the DTS, RTS, and ETS 125:  Total of 3 contests annually.  One winner of each contest time frame.

One thought I have is to make guidelines with regards to what needs to be built.  Something that should not take longer than a month to complete.  Perhaps coming up with a list of 3-5 different pieces that Dad / Parent / Guradian could help with.  The youngster would be 7-10 years old, and once again, the project would take less than a month to build and finish.  We could pick beginner type plans off of any of the Free Plan sites on Al Gore's Internet.

Contest for the RS2E Type Class sanders:

Project would be a 90 day time frame, and increase in difficulty.  Youngster ages 10- 13  6 winners and they would start in two month intervals.  The contestents would have to register for the contest they wish to compete in.

Contest for the RO series:

Project would be an 180 day time frame, and again increase in difficulty.  Youngsters from 13-18 (but still in high-school).  We would run a contest that would start June 1 and vote Dec. 31 Then have a contest start January 1 and vote May 31.

Just some thoughts.  I think it is great to get the children that mean so much to us involved in a hobby we all have a passion for (or at least that is what my perception of those contributing on the FOG.)

Timmy C

 
        It's going to be impossible to look into the future at this point to come up with a perfect system for running this event.  Just lay down the basics (80/20 rule) and adjust if there are issues.  Everyone needs to be adult about the outcome, as it shouldn't be about winning as much as participating.  It's been hard for Matthew and others to get some folks out there to even post their first message.  Many of them are probably using the tools frequently and doing great things with them.  This should be a way to get more people interested and posting their work and idea's into the forum.  I use my Festool Tools daily (way too daily as I only get about 1 day a month off) and it just seems like daily grind stuff to me.  It will make me take a closer look at what I'm doing to see if it warrants sharing with the group.  I'm a kitchen/bath remodeler (95%) and cabinet maker (5%) not a furniture builder so I get to thinking the remodel is a project, and it's a culmination of 2-3 months of work.  This probably isn't the case here, it has to be how something within the project was dealt with using the tools and how/why the Festools were different/better than another tool would have been.  I have seen some creative examples of using Festool Tools posted on here that were more time consuming and difficult than the right tool would have been for the job.     

Chris...       
 
Chris Mercado said:
... I have seen some creative examples of using Festool Tools posted on here that were more time consuming and difficult than the right tool would have been for the job.     

Finally, a category I could compete in:

"Best example of using the wrong tools for a project, taking the most ridiculous amount of time."

John
 
Timmy,
Thank you for your input.  Hey, great ideas like this are exactly why I started the contest discussion!

OK, I think it would be terrific if your offerings and the offerings from Festool USA could both be available to members.

A word of caution: in my experience, managing contests may seem simple, but they can get really complicated.  From your description, it seems you are proposing to keep track of registrations, age ranges, prices, beginning and end dates, as well as the projects themselves.  That's going to be a nightmare!

I strongly urge you to use the forum's natural structure to gather entries, rather than creating any new special efforts from members to enter the contests.  For example, use the "Adult/Child Projects" board to gather entries.  Same goes for any other area.  My point is, I want people to post projects, with the contests being a little extra boost to what they are interested in doing already.  I'd rather not have members posting under specific restraints just to enter a contest.

We already have a concept for a monthly contest with tools provided by Festool USA.  Now, let's see if we can put that monthly contest together with your three-times-a-year idea and form a system of contests.

Matthew

PS: I renamed this board "Tool Contests" so it is more inclusive of ideas like Timmy's.
 
John, John, I dare you to enter that competition against me. I am afraid I would destroy you.  ;) :D ;D 8) Fred
 
Everyone,
Let's continue discussing and debating contests.  As time goes on, we can revise the ways in which contests are run, and this discussion can be a source of ideas.  It can also be the source of new contests, like the one Timmy C is proposing.  As ideas take shape in this amorphous discussion, we can spin off specific contest topics.

I'm going to get things rolling with the first monthly contest.  I'll open a new discussion in this board for the May 2008 MFK 700 router contest.

Matthew
 
Matthew Schenker said:
Timmy,
Thank you for your input.  Hey, great ideas like this are exactly why I started the contest discussion!

OK, I think it would be terrific if your offerings and the offerings from Festool USA could both be available to members.

A word of caution: in my experience, managing contests may seem simple, but they can get really complicated.  From your description, it seems you are proposing to keep track of registrations, age ranges, prices, beginning and end dates, as well as the projects themselves.  That's going to be a nightmare!

I strongly urge you to use the forum's natural structure to gather entries, rather than creating any new special efforts from members to enter the contests.  For example, use the "Adult/Child Projects" board to gather entries.  Same goes for any other area.  My point is, I want people to post projects, with the contests being a little extra boost to what they are interested in doing already.  I'd rather not have members posting under specific restraints just to enter a contest.

We already have a concept for a monthly contest with tools provided by Festool USA.  Now, let's see if we can put that monthly contest together with your three-times-a-year idea and form a system of contests.

Matthew

PS: I renamed this board "Tool Contests" so it is more inclusive of ideas like Timmy's.

Matthew, I totally agree that the complexity of my proposal would be tenuous.  I realize that we strive to be paperless, however, perhaps there needs to be a form...acknowlegement / confirmation, etc. 

Perhaps there are those who would wish to contribute /volunteer on a "Tool Contest" board of directors/committee ? 

I agree, it could get pretty hectic....but it certainly is doable!

Timmy
 
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