After putting it off for four years I have finally picked up a Kapex
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Brice Burrell
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Lbob131 said:
Glass1 said 1/6 of a 1/16 of an inch.
The reason I asked is because i see many people say their's is perfect. I realize this is in the eye of the beholder and why I asked if he actually measured it.
I'm curious to how many actually have flat tables. I hear people say they have flat tables and cant see light. If they cant see light, they must be within a few thousandths. I can easily see light on mine and therefore my saw can never have as good of a tolerance as someones that cannot see light.
So, someone asked bout the 4 cut method. Yup, I did it, and its flipping spot on! So kudos to festool for that...unfortunately the 4 cut only tests the flatness of your turret and not the entire table. My turret is dead flat and festool dialed the bevel in great! So if I am cutting 4-5" pieces I have perfect cuts. It's about .001 per inch off, in case anyone is wondering, which awesome.
So, what is my expectation of table flatness....within .003. What's aggravating is they have a fantastic saw, but built it on a sub par base. Which the base is critical since it effects everything else on the saw.
I am not going to return the saw. I really like the features and I can't really tell its off, unless I am cutting a piece that's over 2.5" tall. A 5" tall piece is pretty noticeable. It would also cost me $70 to return it. For $125 I could get it surface ground to within .001.
Now, before you all start busting my chops, I was talking to the machine shop about Blanchard grinding a welding table and I figured I would ask him about the miter saw table while I was at it. Takes about 15 minutes, but they have a 1 hour minimum. No, I am not going to do it. I was just curious as to the cost to make it flat.
There is actually quite a bit of flex in the base of the Kapex. I put a credit card underneath the center back of the saw. Where it rests on the MFT. I made a cut on a 4" tall piece that spanned the entire base. It was actually pretty close to perfect.
I'm curious to how many actually have flat tables. I hear people say they have flat tables and cant see light. If they cant see light, they must be within a few thousandths. I can easily see light on mine and therefore my saw can never have as good of a tolerance as someones that cannot see light.
So, someone asked bout the 4 cut method. Yup, I did it, and its flipping spot on! So kudos to festool for that...unfortunately the 4 cut only tests the flatness of your turret and not the entire table. My turret is dead flat and festool dialed the bevel in great! So if I am cutting 4-5" pieces I have perfect cuts. It's about .001 per inch off, in case anyone is wondering, which awesome.
So, what is my expectation of table flatness....within .003. What's aggravating is they have a fantastic saw, but built it on a sub par base. Which the base is critical since it effects everything else on the saw.
I am not going to return the saw. I really like the features and I can't really tell its off, unless I am cutting a piece that's over 2.5" tall. A 5" tall piece is pretty noticeable. It would also cost me $70 to return it. For $125 I could get it surface ground to within .001.
Now, before you all start busting my chops, I was talking to the machine shop about Blanchard grinding a welding table and I figured I would ask him about the miter saw table while I was at it. Takes about 15 minutes, but they have a 1 hour minimum. No, I am not going to do it. I was just curious as to the cost to make it flat.
There is actually quite a bit of flex in the base of the Kapex. I put a credit card underneath the center back of the saw. Where it rests on the MFT. I made a cut on a 4" tall piece that spanned the entire base. It was actually pretty close to perfect.
KRKWW
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[member=182]Corwin[/member]
I suffered the same disappointment you did nearly two years ago when I took the Kapex plunge. I set the saw up with as much care as I possible could since I have meticulously high standards. And consequently I had very high expectations for the Kapex.
When I accomplished the 4 cut test, it was not spot on as I had hoped, but it was 3x better than the mfg. tolerances. The dust collection was not nearly as efficient as I had hoped for. But it was far better than any saw I had used previous.
I opted to keep the saw as I was building a very special kitchen for a client that ofeatured solid white oak carcasses and solid black walnut face frames, doors and exposed sides. I needed the extra cross cut capacity that my DW705 did not handle.
All this to say that after using the saw for nearly two years, my work has not suffered. In fact, comments from the client and those who have seen the completed project would indicate quite the opposite. They all know of my meticulous attention to detail and any open joints would be strictly forbidden on my part.
I had to come to this conclusion: I am not a machinist. I am a woodworker and as such I use a material that moves more than metal. I understand your disappointment and desire to minimize your losses by parting ways with your new saw. But I hope this brief testimonial will help you reconsider.
Very respectfully,
Kevin
I suffered the same disappointment you did nearly two years ago when I took the Kapex plunge. I set the saw up with as much care as I possible could since I have meticulously high standards. And consequently I had very high expectations for the Kapex.
When I accomplished the 4 cut test, it was not spot on as I had hoped, but it was 3x better than the mfg. tolerances. The dust collection was not nearly as efficient as I had hoped for. But it was far better than any saw I had used previous.
I opted to keep the saw as I was building a very special kitchen for a client that ofeatured solid white oak carcasses and solid black walnut face frames, doors and exposed sides. I needed the extra cross cut capacity that my DW705 did not handle.
All this to say that after using the saw for nearly two years, my work has not suffered. In fact, comments from the client and those who have seen the completed project would indicate quite the opposite. They all know of my meticulous attention to detail and any open joints would be strictly forbidden on my part.
I had to come to this conclusion: I am not a machinist. I am a woodworker and as such I use a material that moves more than metal. I understand your disappointment and desire to minimize your losses by parting ways with your new saw. But I hope this brief testimonial will help you reconsider.
Very respectfully,
Kevin
Corwin
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Kevin,
My saw arrived with a deformed fence. I was attempting to replace my older compound miter saw with something more accurate, however, that old miter saw has a much straighter fence on it than this new Kapex. I'm sure most Kapex saws don't have this problem when delivered. I just have no confidence in this saw now. And the return delay is making it all much worse. Not happy with Festool products just now.
My saw arrived with a deformed fence. I was attempting to replace my older compound miter saw with something more accurate, however, that old miter saw has a much straighter fence on it than this new Kapex. I'm sure most Kapex saws don't have this problem when delivered. I just have no confidence in this saw now. And the return delay is making it all much worse. Not happy with Festool products just now.
http://festoolownersgroup.com/festool-tool-problems/kapex-left-outboard-table-wonky!!!/msg404117/#msg404117
Posted this sometime ago after reading some of these check the saw for flat and straight comments.
The OP was saying that gaps large enough to slip Xacto blades between his edges, so I checked mine with a milled straight edge and feelers just to see what's up.
Basically the entire saw was within .003-.006 over all work surfaces. Where there was variance it happened between the finger lines but since my zero clearance insert was slightly proud even that variance is negligible for wood cutting.
Considering that my .5mm (.02) pencil or tighter knife lines and measuring/marking devices are well beyond those tolerances and the saw is calibrated within 'reason' (probably less than a few tenths degree full out), I can live with it.
Don't know what's with the more recent saws, tension, warping, whatever.
Posted this sometime ago after reading some of these check the saw for flat and straight comments.
The OP was saying that gaps large enough to slip Xacto blades between his edges, so I checked mine with a milled straight edge and feelers just to see what's up.
Basically the entire saw was within .003-.006 over all work surfaces. Where there was variance it happened between the finger lines but since my zero clearance insert was slightly proud even that variance is negligible for wood cutting.
Considering that my .5mm (.02) pencil or tighter knife lines and measuring/marking devices are well beyond those tolerances and the saw is calibrated within 'reason' (probably less than a few tenths degree full out), I can live with it.
Don't know what's with the more recent saws, tension, warping, whatever.
I saw reference to my post about how wonky my kapex base was and thought I could just head off some clicks over to my thread:
I was able to "unwarp" the base by shimming under the base and using a lot of u bolts to secure it (gorilla torque) to a Ridgid mitre saw utility cart, which is ridgid steel.
There is a bunch of flop and flex in the head (affecting bevel) if you only use the standard hold down points.
Just throw enough shims and tie downs at it, c inching it to a rigid base and it'll work well enough.
I was able to "unwarp" the base by shimming under the base and using a lot of u bolts to secure it (gorilla torque) to a Ridgid mitre saw utility cart, which is ridgid steel.
There is a bunch of flop and flex in the head (affecting bevel) if you only use the standard hold down points.
Just throw enough shims and tie downs at it, c inching it to a rigid base and it'll work well enough.
nickao
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Shadytree said:
Are you talking about the actual saw construction being sloppy or woodworking projects needing to be within .01 ?
I am thinking you are referring to the actual table, that it needs to be within 1/100 or its sloppy manufacturing, because we all know the stuff we make out of wood is looking perfect if we can get to within 1/100 tolerances. Actually for things not glued it's all about even reveals more than trying to eliminate the gaps.
Our biggest battle is making things look good over time because wood movement is far more than .01 through seasonal changes.
I make inlays for a living and have done so for 11 years and I wouldn't claim precision to 1/100 and you can't see gaps in my work.
icecactus said:
For what that saw costs, I would send it back every time until I had the one I wanted. I have a large Milwaukee compound miter that is HUGE and it doesn't have that problem and was around 700 all in. I want the Kapex badly but I would need both to cut the bigger stuff. But no point in not getting it how you want for that kind of dough!
Guys - I think the complaint in general is that (we) expect more form a tool maker that has positioned itself as the uber, ne plus ultra of the tool and charges accordingly.
Features are nice, but fit and finish as well as longevity are a key component to the value proposition. A fancy package and a fan boy site are all well and good. But if the tools have basically the same tolerances and lifespan as your average brand tool - then Festool becomes a case of the emperor's new clothes in which we're all getting hoodwinked.
I also think that in light if Kapex's motor woes, Festool's lack of response to them, coupled with the high price makes for a high satisfaction bar to meet. Fair or unfair as that may be.
Features are nice, but fit and finish as well as longevity are a key component to the value proposition. A fancy package and a fan boy site are all well and good. But if the tools have basically the same tolerances and lifespan as your average brand tool - then Festool becomes a case of the emperor's new clothes in which we're all getting hoodwinked.
I also think that in light if Kapex's motor woes, Festool's lack of response to them, coupled with the high price makes for a high satisfaction bar to meet. Fair or unfair as that may be.
I purchased a Kapex 120 appr. 10 years ago (I believe they hadn't been out long). It was used heavily as a cabinet installation tool for three years and occasionally for all the years since. It still fires up every time I reach for it.
The guys I worked next to referred to it as the "Crown-Killer". Between the crown stops, the inherent accuracy, and a 28 gg. pin nailer, I could run through 50 feet of molding in about an hour. We were paid 3.50 per foot to install crown. Wasn't bad money for a young guy.
Before that I had a DeWalt slider. Nothing but fudging miter joints and applying colored putty to hide tooth marks.
The Kapex 120 is a darned good saw.
The guys I worked next to referred to it as the "Crown-Killer". Between the crown stops, the inherent accuracy, and a 28 gg. pin nailer, I could run through 50 feet of molding in about an hour. We were paid 3.50 per foot to install crown. Wasn't bad money for a young guy.
Before that I had a DeWalt slider. Nothing but fudging miter joints and applying colored putty to hide tooth marks.
The Kapex 120 is a darned good saw.
I took the plunge a couple of years ago and the Kapex was my first Festool purchase. I needed a "woodworking" grade sliding miter saw, not carpentry grade. I was using a high-end Bosch unit at our church shop. Great carpentry saw but not up to par for my woodworking needs.
When I got the saw home I immediately did the 4 cut test so I could dial it in perfectly (I've never had a new tool that didn't need adjustment). The result of the test was horrific. When I found that the board was rocking on the saw table, I figured the test board was warped. Nope, it was dead flat. Started checking table flatness and it was off by over .020". Furthermore, if you rotated the table, the flatness changed, so there was no fixing it.
Fortunately, I bought the saw from my local tool dealer. Took it back and he was shocked at the condition. He ordered 3 more saws and let me have the pick of the litter. I found one that was pretty close to flat (~.003). I love the saw and it produces woodworking-level precision along with some useful features. It became the first of a total of 11 Festools I now have. My take on Festool is you pay 2-3 times more than the next best and you get a 20% better tool. For me, that 20% is invaluable (probably offsets my incompetence). If you don't need it, save your money.
Bottom line on the Kapex table flatness is; it varies from unit to unit. Festool's manufacturing process is too variable. That's why some user's question other's experience with the saw. They may have a good one, but the bad ones are out there in large quantity. My dealer's Festool rep agrees there is a problem and he is frustrated with the company's refusal to acknowledge it.
Lesson I learned was; it pays to buy from your local dealer if that is an option. For those in the Detroit, MI area, go see Brady at Marsh Power Tools (I have no self-interest in it, but I give credit to a first class outfit).
When I got the saw home I immediately did the 4 cut test so I could dial it in perfectly (I've never had a new tool that didn't need adjustment). The result of the test was horrific. When I found that the board was rocking on the saw table, I figured the test board was warped. Nope, it was dead flat. Started checking table flatness and it was off by over .020". Furthermore, if you rotated the table, the flatness changed, so there was no fixing it.
Fortunately, I bought the saw from my local tool dealer. Took it back and he was shocked at the condition. He ordered 3 more saws and let me have the pick of the litter. I found one that was pretty close to flat (~.003). I love the saw and it produces woodworking-level precision along with some useful features. It became the first of a total of 11 Festools I now have. My take on Festool is you pay 2-3 times more than the next best and you get a 20% better tool. For me, that 20% is invaluable (probably offsets my incompetence). If you don't need it, save your money.
Bottom line on the Kapex table flatness is; it varies from unit to unit. Festool's manufacturing process is too variable. That's why some user's question other's experience with the saw. They may have a good one, but the bad ones are out there in large quantity. My dealer's Festool rep agrees there is a problem and he is frustrated with the company's refusal to acknowledge it.
Lesson I learned was; it pays to buy from your local dealer if that is an option. For those in the Detroit, MI area, go see Brady at Marsh Power Tools (I have no self-interest in it, but I give credit to a first class outfit).
Canoescapes
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+1 on working with Brady at Marsh Power Tools in the Detroit area. He is very knowledgeable and stands by products sold. I bought a Powermatic planer from Brady a few years ago that had a minor manufacturing defect. It was easily corrected and not worth the hassle of replacing the planer. Brady could have easily told me what to do, but instead, his response was to drive to my home and correct the defect himself. I am a hobbyist not a woodworking business.
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