Anyone considering ditching Festool tools?

[aloysius]

Except that Festool doesn't really have anything with SDS, besides that one battery hammer.

Protool used to have some wired hammers, but they seem to have disappeared completely.

Hitachi sells one in a Classic systainer.

I firmly believe that Bosch is, was & probably will remain the kings in hammers of all varieties:  cordless, corded, sds +, max & even hex.  Some others are up there too.  Both Hilti & Makita make excellent bigger hammers, & Wacker Neumann certainly make the most powerful (3600w, 100+J) electric hammers in the business.

But nobody else has the depth of range in all categories as Bosch.  Not the power & performance edge.  Nor the price points either.  Whilst much of Robert Bosch's tool range leaves a little (or a lot) to be desired, their hammers rule.  All but the biggest should fit into Sys IIs, Midi or maybe MaxiSys/tainers.

To be king or queen, both will be fine. [big grin] Even though, Hilti and Makita with Bosch are very good and I have respect  for all of them, but I would never give up my Flex and Metabo for none of them including Festool. Cordless or corded.
Here is the latest Metabo with dust collector.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=3&v=LoLb_BOPQgY

I've both owned & tried a few others along the way, too.  DeWalt Max 1500w, Metabo Cordless & Corded Plus, & an old Atlas Copco/Kango/Milwaukee.  Plus quite a few assorted Hiltis, Makitas, DeWalts, Milwaukees etc borrowed and tried out from suppliers, colleagues & employers.

There's a nice long-format 1700w Max combi hammer made in Germany & marketed as an AEG, Milwaukee & Metabo in their respective corporate colours.  It was for years the biggest, i.e. most powerful (I think) SDS Max hammer that still drills (52mm in solids, 150mm cores).  I'm actually on my third one now.  Bosch have a newly-released equivalent out now, too (GBH 12).  But its shorter L-frame chassis layout places too much bending effort on my ageing back for chipping/chiselling.  I like the longer ones for these tasks.

Always went back to the Bosch range 'though.  For me anyway, they just build a better mousetrap.  In each & every size range I required, from 5mm Hilti plug setting, dynabolting & loxton setting, mating new to old slab pours, through-boring cable access holes, chiselling & chasing to heavy demolition of slabs, my carefully selected range of Bosch hammers invariably worked best for me.  Admittedly some better than others, but that's hardly a valid criticism of a range that must have over 50 different variants!

The specs tell part of the story:  in each, size, wattage, cordless voltage, weight class the Bosch version tends to have the most outright power, punch & capacity.  Apart from the overall max & min capacities, their "sweet spot" also tends to be slightly wider too.  For intensive use, they also seem to have "better" vibration damping strategies than the competition.  As an industrial white finger sufferer with recurrent carpal tunnel issues, I take NVH performance seriously.

 

[JFelchlin]

An ardent hobbyist woodworker for many years,
I’ve been a FOGer since 2007, when I took up with Festool.
As you can see be my “signature”, I’ve bought/own a lot of Festool products.
Early on, Festool QA was excellent, and I almost never had a reason to have a tool sent for service.
As the years have gone by, I’ve had more problems with Festool tools -
And Service has declined appreciably without “intervention from higher up”...
Not only in my own experience, but in reading the FOG over the last several years.
Eventually, the issue gets resolved, but not without increasingly discontentment with the Festool brand/company.
Example:
I really wanted to purchase the Kapex, and it’s assorted assessories.
$$ weren’t/aren’t an object. I’m retired and have the $$.
BUT... Having read about all the issues with the Kapex...
And read about - And personally experienced -
Festool’s Service’s seemingly continued unresolved problems -
I just decided to keep using my perfectly good/excellent -
Bosch 12 In. Dual-Bevel Glide Miter Saw.
I’ve made the same kinds of decisions about other Festool potential purchases.

ALL of these FOGers can’t be wrong in their consistent/ongoing assertions -
About the duel major issues of declines in Product Quality and Service.
One would assume, we are good willed, loyal Festool tool buyers/users;
Not simply a few malcontents.
In my opinion...
It appears that Festool has come to the point of working with -
A COST/BENEFIT (PROFIT) business paradigm -
Where they’re “trading” on “yesterday’s reputation” and quality -
While slowly letting Festool’s quality and service erode.
At the point that Festool’s SALES decline... The paradigm will change.
In the meantime... Faithful FOGers will continue to read the reviews -
Only buying from brands with tools that “measure up”.
Let’s hope that Festool changes the way they’re operating -
Before the current situation spirals “down the tubes”.
Think: SEARS
Regrettably,
Joe

 

[Welshdog]

My concern with Festool is their glacial product development and improvement cycle. Changes to existing products seem to be very infrequent and quite rare.  It's as if they think the first iteration of a tool is the best it can be and there is no need to continue improving or fix problems that arise.  The hose garage for the dust extractors is a prime example.  There is no question three things were wrong with the design. 1) the wrong plastic was chosen. 2) the actual design of the garage is flawed with too thin plastic in places and a lack or reinforcement in critical spots. 3) complete failure to understand how normal human beings (not engineers) would use the product.  The domino is another almost orphaned product. Very few changes have been made and only a couple of flaws have been fixed.  As far as I can tell no significant functional improvements to the design have been made ever.  The MFT - does anyone believe, in the many years the current design has been sold, that there could not have been numerous improvements, added features and more accessories developed? Table sag, splinter guard peeling, finicky squaring are all problems that could have been fixed or improved upon.  How about a creative solution for working with small pieces of wood on the MFT - that would make me real happy.  People have mentioned the Plug-it problems.  I have never broken one, but it's pretty easy to understand how that would happen when you use one.  Too much plastic, too much force needed and too long a barrel adds up to a delicate part that can't handle frequent use. I can't remember which tool it is, but every time I attach or remove the Plug-it I cringe a bit because it feels like something is gonna give.  Someday it will, judging by all the reports.

Don't get the wrong impression. I like my MFT, my ATF 55, my CT36, my Domino, my Rotex 125, my OF 1400 and my Pro5. They are all good tools, generally perform well and do unique things.  But when other companies issue new tools with usable improvements every single year, you wonder exactly what it is they are doing at the Festool offices in Germany day in and day out.

 

[tallgrass]

i have tons. They perform as advertised. ill be sticking around.

 

[NHSP759]

I just bought a PDC and am HKC so I’m still pretty happy. Wouldn’t mind another syslite.

 

[sospan]

My concern with Festool is their glacial product development and improvement cycle. Changes to existing products seem to be very infrequent and quite rare.

Croeso

The problem for Festool is that they aren't a volume manufacturer like DeWalt or Makita and retooling presses and manufacturing takes a long time. We are now only seeing improvement to their extraction range which now includes quite a few changes to functionality, usability and overall design. Festool to bring quite a few tools to market but have also withdrawn quite a few over the last few years - sometimes in a puzzling way.  Festool's product lethargy is probably down to their self imposed ethos - if they can't improve significantly an existing tool then the don't bother.

On the whole I am impressed with Festool, they aren't tools to use out on site, I mainly use them in the workshop and use other brands outside.

Er gwaetha pawb a phopeth Ry'n ni yma o hyd  [wink]

 

[Dick Mahany]

Saw this today from former FOG poster Erock.  Interesting perspective.........on Festool

 

[GoingMyWay]

I was glad to hear his explanation.  I had been very curious why he decided to move away from Festool.  I really enjoy his videos as well.

 

[Dick Mahany]

I was glad to hear his explanation.  I had been very curious why he decided to move away from Festool.  I really enjoy his videos as well.

I will admit that his cabinet making videos were very well done and quite influential when I was deciding whether to get my TS55, MFT3, Domino and LR32 a few years back for a major cabinet making project.  I hope Festool management can listen objectively to his opinion as I think that would be a good thing.

 

[McNally Family]

While I also miss his posts, and wish he would come back, I feel compelled to point out that his explanation regarding multiple chargers being required with the introduction of cordless sanders is incorrect.  I purchased all three cordless sanders, and still only have one charger in my shop.  The batteries for the cordless sanders fit existing chargers.  The only real exception to this rule is with the CXS or TXS drill.  They require their own unique charger, which is why I have not purchased that model drill (I did win the 90year anniversary model, but keep it pristine as a collectable).

My hope is that Festool utilize the new battery in some other tool, sometime in the future (think Vecturo). 

 

[pettyconstruction]

I don’t understand Eric’s stance. He is complaining about a change in the tools that he already has.
I could see it if he wanted a tool, and the saw had imperial and he wanted metric but he already had a TS 55 saw.
Seems like selling the car cuz it got a flat tire.
Charlie

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[TylerC]

On the battery platform issue, I completely understand the desire to have a single battery that can work on everything. That's ideal. However, we think it's important to design the battery around the tool — not the other way around. In the case of the cordless sanders, the balance and ergonomics of the sanders would be really off if we used the existing 18 V batteries. While having a single battery is more convenient, it's not worth it if it requires us to compromise on the quality of the tool.

 

[LDBecker]

I replied to Eric's video on YouTube because I appreciate his videos and what he does - I think he's leaving out the quality of service that you get with Festool verses what you get on cheap-as-possible, Chinese-made, disposable stuff. It may work for a while, but who are you going to take it to for repair? Home Depot? They, at least in the Los Angeles area, sent you to a little shop 30 miles away, and MAYBE in a month, you'll get your repaired tool back. Or not. The repair process on their own Rigid brand seems worse. With Festool - take it to whichever store I bought it from (Anderson Plywood or Woodcraft), and in a week or so it's back and working - even out of warranty stuff. I'm very happy and impressed with the quality of service and support from Festool.
On the issue of batteries/chargers - I personally have tried to standardize my batteries down to just one or two chargers - and I failed miserably. I have the 18v and TSX battery charger for Festool, a Milwaukee 18v charger - love their brushless metal bandsaw, SDS hammer drill, brushless grinder and sawzall, a Makita 18v charger (stapler, older hammer drill), and even a DeWalt charger (amazing level, and now Graco UltraMax handheld sprayer). Oh, and an Eco charger for my lawn blower, edger and soon their mower. I'm now getting more into handplanes - no chargers necessary for them, though I had to put together a sharpening station. It's all kind of fun, isn't it? I'm having a good time with it, and Festool is a big part of that.

 

[live4ever]

Eric is just going from brand loyalist/promoter/devotee/fanboy to simply...user. 

Being the former is about more than just liking or using the products - it's a personal alignment with the brand's design principles, philosophy, ethics, business practices, etc.  For the reasons he stated, they've lost him as a brand ambassador. 

In the grand scheme of things, that may not matter much, but I do think content producers like Eric have been helpful in growing Festool's customer base.

 

[ChuckS]

In the grand scheme of things, that may not matter much, but I do think content producers like Eric have been helpful in growing Festool's customer base.

Although my purchases of Festool products were made before I came across some of Eric's videos (via this Forum), I agree he was helping Festool through his videos. I know nothing about the youtube model and so if he benefited from his videos financially like other youtube video content producers, I don't know.

I am fine with the reasons he gave for his decision. I don't go with any one particular brand for my woodworking needs, except for one thing: all my handplanes (and most other hand tools) are from Veritas.

 

[promark747]

I agree with Eric on the imperial vs metric issue.  It was a slap in the face to those of us who adopted metric...and if I'm not mistaken, the tools' underlying mechanics (i.e., the racks or screws used for the scales) actually remain metric so the whole implementation is odd.

Regarding the price increase with lack of innovation/improvement, I think the new CT bluetooth modules are a good example.  If Festool had increased prices but added functionality, the price increases would be much easier to swallow.

 

[Cheese]

On the battery platform issue, I completely understand the desire to have a single battery that can work on everything. That's ideal. However, we think it's important to design the battery around the tool — not the other way around. In the case of the cordless sanders, the balance and ergonomics of the sanders would be really off if we used the existing 18 V batteries. While having a single battery is more convenient, it's not worth it if it requires us to compromise on the quality of the tool.

Hey [member=57769]TylerC[/member]
It would be very interesting to put together several cordless sanders using the conventional, heavy, hard edge, square Festool battery and bring them along on the roadshow for comparison purposes.  [smile]  Maybe some of the other Eric’s out there would change their mind.  [big grin]

Festool’s correct, design the battery around the tool.  [big grin]

 

[rst]

I agree with Cheese the regular batteries would add unnecessary weight and skew the mechanics.  Brice's comments about the imperial/metric change is spot on however.  Festool probably should do more market research before another bonehead mistake like this.  As far as the battery platform business, I use Milwaukee 12 and 18v, Fein and Festool.  I use what ever platform works best.  For example, I have at least 95 systainers to store all my different tools and currently am looking at the new Milwaukee packout system for when I need to cart my stuff around jobsites.

 

[Stephen B]

I think Eric, for different reasons perhaps, is echoing an increasing dissatisfaction with Festool, THE COMPANY.  This dissatisfaction in increasingly echoed not only on the FOG but also social media.

With a few notable exceptions, Festool makes high quality well designed functional tools. I am not dissatisfied with most of my Festool purchases, although like others I have favourites.

No its dissatisfaction with the Festool the Company, in particular Marketing. Contributing factors are - Annual price rises world wide; in the US the metric/imperial debacle and in Australia - perceptions of price gouging, retail price maintenance, delayed product releases and a poorer version of Service All Includive.

Edit. Festool in Australia is imported by Tootechnic from Festool Germany.

 

[Chance Beasley]

Eric's videos AND more importantly, his excitement and passion for Festool, were definitely an influence on me jumping into the Festool brand. I loved the organization and the "system" that he displayed. Let's be honest, he had quite the collection to show. While I don't necessarily agree with all of his decisions for leaving, I get some of his points for sure.

If people buy the best tool available and not just going for color matching, they are going to have multiple different brands in their arsenal. Festool doesn't make the best of everything. So, the battery excuse mentioned in the video, I just don't get. And, Bosch has an 18v and 12v battery platform as well with large lines in both. Right there, even within brands, their are multiple batteries to carry around.

I have quite a few Festools in my garage. Most I am happy with and would buy again. But, I would replace probably a 1/3rd of them if and when they fail with cheaper options. As good as the Kapex is (and I do think it's a great saw), if it blows up on me, I'm going back to my old faithful Dewalt for a 1/3rd of the cost. I believe I could buy a new Dewalt for the price of the repair bill.