Anyone experienced with Flashing?

[tjbnwi]

Without pulling the door, there is no best way. The door needs to be pulled, a piece of tappered cedar siding placed on the sill, wide part in. Protector Warp, 12" up each side. I then cover with copper flashing Z or straight depending on the application, folded up the sides with the corners soldered.

Tom

Cmon Tom you know I take your word as gospel! Don't make me do it!!  [wink]

Kill me please, just end it all now. Pulling this door adds so much to my workload on this project. Ugggh

Okay, I wont make you do it, send me your address and I'll come do it.

My bill for this probably will kill you if not (depending on where you are in the USA), I'm in Indiana, with earth moving equipment so..................

Tom

 

[tjbnwi]

One other thing you'll notice WHEN you pull the door is the leak the occurs at the sill/jamb intersection. That is why you install a tapered to the outside sill pan. You also back dam this with backer rod or minimal expanding foam.

Tom

 

[skids]

I stand behind my idea this can be corrected without removal of the door. I have a professional coming tomorrow to validate my thinking.

Well, seeing as your just looking for someone to agree with you, SURE, your right, you can do it any way you would like. [blink]

You asked for advice,  three Professionals responded to you, and you insist on finding another way, why bother asking? 

Mike

My last resort is to remove the door, I will explore what options I have before I move ahead with that. I am not ignoring your opinion, maybe just a little but of denial on my part. You have to remember what set this off-which was the deck flashing, when I put the door in I flashed with that wrap all the way around the door and tucked under the siding, with a sill pan, so what you see in the pictures is the remnants of what I installed. There is a sill pan under the slider with that small amount left hanging out. Which I am discovering is basically useless to me since you can't unadhere it. I thought maybe, I would cut the siding back further and address all of this from there since there is some properly installed wrap inside the jambs, header and sill of that slider. Maybe that thinking is flawed..

What happened here is an incorrect deck flashing trapped and pushed water upward into the area under the sill. Which ultimately had that wrap on it (cut away now) which trapped the moisture and cause some rot. Hindsight I wouldn't have used that wrap in that location as far down as I did to allow for proper air movement.

I really opened a can of worms on this..I might as well remove the ledger at this point to and check under that as well, then cut out the small amount of rot thats there..This will require a temporary carrying beam and possible cribbing to move the deck back. Basically I am removing this whole part of my house..I am thinking I would rather light it on fire.

 

[skids]

One other thing you'll notice WHEN you pull the door is the leak the occurs at the sill/jamb intersection. That is why you install a tapered to the outside sill pan. You also back dam this with backer rod or minimal expanding foam.

Tom

Right..And there is NO way for me to address this by cutting the siding back further than it is? I could just refil the gap with wider stock. I basically have to remove the door and use that sill pan material Gary used that stretches across that 45degree jamb/sill area, then metal pan, then reinstall door?

 

[skids]

Go look at Gary Katz's videos on flashing a door properly

Any link? I googled it didn't come up with a door flashing project from Gary.

Not Gary's, but Mean Bill Robison's (yes, that's the name he uses). He is bending vinyl, probably Alum-A-Poles. I've never watched it hope it's good. I'll find Gary's;



Tom

Cool video actually, guy knows his stuff. I would have liked to see him install it, I am little hazy on those corners he fabricates and whole they fit in.

 

[tiralie]

I really opened a can of worms on this..I might as well remove the ledger at this point to and check under that as well, then cut out the small amount of rot thats there..This will require a temporary carrying beam and possible cribbing to move the deck back.

Ya, but if you are gonna do it, you may as well do it right.

Taking it apart and redoing it is the right thing to do...when you get the door out, it would be good to see what shape that sill is in...take a photo if you can.

Tim

 

[WarnerConstCo.]

It's a 3 hour job to pull the door, do the ledger flashing, do the sill pan, cut the siding back and pop the door back in.

Flash the sides and top of door and install some Miratec or PVC trim where the siding was cut back.

You like expensive tools, but want to be as cheap as possible on the largest investment of your life, your house.

I hope you are compensating the individual for his time when he comes out to give you an opinion.

 

[skids]

It's a 3 hour job to pull the door, do the ledger flashing, do the sill pan, cut the siding back and pop the door back in.

Flash the sides and top of door and install some Miratec or PVC trim where the siding was cut back.

You like expensive tools, but want to be as cheap as possible on the largest investment of your life, your house.

I hope you are compensating the individual for his time when he comes out to give you an opinion.

And another 3 hours to redo the interior trim, paint and caulk etc..

Listen, you need to understand one thing. I am ANYTHING but cheap when it comes to my home. I approach it with pragmatism..Like I said earlier in the thread, the inside of the jambs, and header are all flashed from when I put the door in two years ago. I fully expect that if I pulled the door those areas will be dry and fine. Only thing I can do further is expand them out after cutting the siding back further I suppose.  Which means I am only pulling the door to address the jamb/sill intersection. Which if you were on this job I could show you why I think that..

As far as whether I pay this fella thats my business. But..It's a childhood friend, who runs a very succesfull constr. company, who just called and said there is no reason I can't bend a piece of flashing, then run it up underneath, essentailly tap it into the space between the slider and sill and run the wall legs up higher and then seal it from there. Not saying I agree or disagree with that, but thats one opinion from a pro thats had his eyes on it.

There is ZERO rot up at the sill, or near the door..The small amount of rot was a result of incorrect deck flashing that trapped water and allow it to wick into the plywood and is located down in the area closest to the ledger. No rotting or water damage up closer at the door sill area. If anything I would think folks would have hit on the subject of the deck ledger being removed!

I am not saying taking the door out isn't the best way to handle it, I am just leaving no stone unturned before I commit to that. I still think I could cut the siding back wider, remove that brick molding, do what my friend said at the sill,  then come down over it with Vycor that is connected to the to both wall of the house and the patio door edge/jamb on both right and left sides. THen run a new piece across the Header..Then, I could reinstall piece of Kleer trim board or the like, back bevel that 90 corner off the inside jamb sides, and reinstall the trim pieces.

Capeessh? ; )

 

[Old School Carpenter]

  said there is no reason I can't bend a piece of flashing, then run it up underneath, essentailly tap it into the space between the slider and sill and run the wall legs up higher and then seal it from there. Not saying I agree or disagree with that, but thats one opinion from a pro thats had his eyes on it.

Yep, sure, thats one way to do it, not the correct way, but a way to make sure that 5 years down the road you have to replace the floor for 2' inside the door opening. By doing this you will have given water a direct path into the house under the door. If you think the results from bad deck flashing were awful, this will be much worse.

Just please make sure to take pictures then also.

Mike

 

[skids]

said there is no reason I can't bend a piece of flashing, then run it up underneath, essentailly tap it into the space between the slider and sill and run the wall legs up higher and then seal it from there. Not saying I agree or disagree with that, but thats one opinion from a pro thats had his eyes on it.

Yep, sure, thats one way to do it, not the correct way, but a way to make sure that 5 years down the road you have to replace the floor for 2' inside the door opening. By doing this you will have given water a direct path into the house under the door. If you think the results from bad deck flashing were awful, this will be much worse.

Just please make sure to take pictures then also.

Mike

Ok let me ask you a question. You seem like you have alot of experience and been around this in the field. Have you ever installed an Anderson 200 series patio door? If you have you know the only thing separating that door from the outside is the two beads if sealant they recommend you out down before put the door in the hole. And that is on what ever sill pan you've created. In my case it's a butyl tape pan.

With that said why is it any different to approach it by sliding the pan in up to the first bead of sealant?

Really the concern is te jamb sill area which I think I can address. I would be interested to hear how you install this door.

 

[Old School Carpenter]

Ok, here goes,

1. remove the door
2. remove the deck ledger
3. replace any damaged sheathing/ framing
4. wrap the area behind ledger up to the door sill with flashing tape/ice+water/blueskin... something
5. create a sloped surface at the door sill using siding, a tapered rip......something
6. wrap with butyl tape over sill edge and over lower wrap including up sides of the jack studs
7. install kick board trim of your choice with a kerf at the bottom to allow for sliding the deck flashing(plastic) underneath
8. form a metal/vinyl pan -----including a back bend up the inside of the unit.(at least 1/2", 3/4" is usually more doable)with a front lip to extend over the kick trim.
9. reinstall the door using your two beads of sealant (for air infiltration purposes), and butyl tape on the sides and header (make sure to bring your housewrap over the butyl on top)
10. reinstall the deck ledger, flash with plastic and finish your deck.
11. tie in siding and trim( much easier with a walkable surface)
12. rest comfortably on your deck, knowing that you did it right and that the door will fail before anything else does. [smile]

 

[festooltim]

Since you have the sill flashing hanging out you should be able to make your deck flash and make the piece under the door go all the way up to the sill then seal the sill flashing to it with silicone or stick some more protecto wrap to the back side. You have the door put in right and flashed so I don't see the need to pull it. You would need to make some custom z flash for the deck ledger so it can go high enough to flash the door and siding.

 

[skids]

Since you have the sill flashing hanging out you should be able to make your deck flash and make the piece under the door go all the way up to the sill then seal the sill flashing to it with silicone or stick some more protecto wrap to the back side. You have the door put in right and flashed so I don't see the need to pull it. You would need to make some custom z flash for the deck ledger so it can go high enough to flash the door and siding.

Agreed..This is my point, I am not sure I can unstick whats there without mangling it though, which means I can't get a shingle style flash there..Also if you look closely at the left side of the jamb/sill instersection I should be able to cut the siding back a bit after I pull that brick, and lap over that existing protecto and create shingle style flash right there, which is that area I am concerned about.

I built a quick temp support for the joist tonight when I got home form work to support the joists while I surgically remove the existing ledger to inspect behind and cut and replace some new PT plywood. Once I do that I will flash down from there to the foundation with Vycor, then reinstall new ledger. Reinstall joist/hangers and put that question to bed.

I admit I do like Old Schools technique of carrying the sillpan right over the kickboard. This is a point I missed in my initial install. NEWMAN!

Thank Gents, I appreciate all the feedback here, it's been SUPER helpful. I don't mean to be argumentative, just trying to wrestle the point of whether to pull it or not. It's not out of the question at this point..I am thinking if I go that route what I would like to do is get the deck back up and running THEN deal with the door pull, assuming I can do it that way. Like Old school said it will be walkable at that point and I can focus on it better since the deck part is complete..Oh and forgot to mention, my wife won't be as miffed about 3 kids 5 years and under not being able to use the deck!

 

[skids]

Also...Any recommendations on what to fill the lag holes in the sill once I pull the existing ledger? Urethan caulk seems to fill gaps well. Sound good?

I will reinstall with Ledger Locks, which I love. Just don't want to leave 12 gaping holes in my sill.

 

[WarnerConstCo.]

OK, 4 hours with putting painted trim back up.

Andersen 200 series patio doors suck. They should have came with a nail fin/flange that could be inserted into the frame, the only one's I have seen that didn't were the one's sold at HD. Unless you admitted the flange to slide it in an old hole without disturbing the siding.

Sorry, half-assed flashing details can lead to huge amounts of hidden damage and really pissed off home owners just a few years after the abortion was preformed.

It also can put a bunch of money in my pocket.

Don't shove something over flashing, you will make a water trap. Think like water.

 

[tjbnwi]

I may miss a few things here so, ask if I did not address something.

Why I recommend pulling the door;

You described the steps you underwent when you replaced the door. The primary item I feel is missing is the tappered sill that directs water away from the homes interior. The reason I feel they are important are two fold, first there is the intersection between the door sill and the side jambs, they tend to leak. Second is what known as joist creep. Joist creep is the fact that joists over time will sag in the center. Due to the fact that the ends are supported on the foundation, it creates an inward pitch to the floor. Any water that enters the door will now migrate to the interior.  If you use a back dam without the tappered sill, you create more problems. With the door out you can address any damage to the subfloor.

Sill pan;

Your membrane sill pan is as good as any, as long as you are careful resetting the door. I prefer copper with a membrane, it works well with all most materials it will come in contact with.  

Pulling the door;

You do not have to remove the interior trim or mess with the walls. I did an entry door in an old home with plaster walls. The walls were capped with galvinized Fry Reglet. The trim was nailed throught the Fry into the jamb. Any attempt to remove the trim would have shattered the plaster. I very carefully cut the nails into the jamb with a MM. This allowed me to pull the door without one bit of disruption to the interior of the home. This being a replacement I set the door and adjusted it to the trim. All of the shims were set from the exterior. I did have to trim the door sill 3/16” to get all the trim to balance. I have to go look at your pics to address the siding.

To loosen the membrane, warm the exposed area with a heat gun. As suggested tuck the new flashing under the membrane and reseal it. You may have to warm it to get it to seal.

Check with a Home Depot in your area. The isle that has the concrete mix. There you should find Sika products, purchase their construction adhesive (check the exp. date on the bottom of the tube) it is urethane. It is the same product the is used on Wedi tile backer to seal the seams. Use this on your lag holes.

Tom

 

[tjbnwi]

Went back and re-read a few posts.

In your first post you state you can't find much fixing this online with the door in place. There is a reason for that.

Your siding is very easy to deal with;



Mount your rail to the wall and cut the siding back. Remove the factory brick mould and replace it with 5/4x5 rough sawn cedar. Make certain you layout very carefully. You mentioned you thought you may have issues at the brick mould. You can make this cut back and address those concerns without removing the door, if you wish. Find someone with a break who will bend up some head Z flashing for you. You should be able to tuck some flashing behind the vertical siding then install the new trim.

A fun story about the replacement door in the video. It was recommended by a supplier, I sold it to my customer. I knew it was not staying when I installed it. It cost me $2300.00 to order a new door from another supplier, then I had to install it. No consideration from the original supplier. Cost to my customer $0.00.

To remodel our master bath I have to remove the brick from the exterior the fireplace in the family room. After the brick is gone I have to layup stone to match the living room fireplace. Why, I need the brick because I need to change the 6/0 sliding door in the bedroom to a 3/0 swinging door that I'm making. The brick is NLA so I have to steal it from the chimney. All because I need to expand the master bath. Fun with remodeling. [eek]

Tom

 

[skids]

OK, 4 hours with putting painted trim back up.

Andersen 200 series patio doors suck. They should have came with a nail fin/flange that could be inserted into the frame, the only one's I have seen that didn't were the one's sold at HD. Unless you admitted the flange to slide it in an old hole without disturbing the siding.

Sorry, half-assed flashing details can lead to huge amounts of hidden damage and really ticked off home owners just a few years after the abortion was preformed.

It also can put a bunch of money in my pocket.

Don't shove something over flashing, you will make a water trap. Think like water.

Haha, you're not the first person who has said exactly that! My childhood friend who owns a remodel company, and installs sliders all the time hates them for that EXACT reason.

I have to admit, that aside I love the door otherwise, it's air and water tight everywhere, and it's wood. I like wood products better than vinyl, especially in this location that is full sun, full weather all the time. Plastic expands and contracts twice as much as wood. Which is why I went with this door-which was an affordable wood door. And I love all other Anderson products..But yes, that flange at the bottom is an issue for installers.

You mean just at the bottom right? Because there is a flange all the way around otherwise

 

[skids]

Went back and re-read a few posts.

In your first post you state you can't find much fixing this online with the door in place. There is a reason for that.

Your siding is very easy to deal with;



Mount your rail to the wall and cut the siding back. Remove the factory brick mould and replace it with 5/4x5 rough sawn cedar. Make certain you layout very carefully. You mentioned you thought you may have issues at the brick mould. You can make this cut back and address those concerns without removing the door, if you wish. Find someone with a break who will bend up some head Z flashing for you. You should be able to tuck some flashing behind the vertical siding then install the new trim.

A fun story about the replacement door in the video. It was recommended by a supplier, I sold it to my customer. I knew it was not staying when I installed it. It cost me $2300.00 to order a new door from another supplier, then I had to install it. No consideration from the original supplier. Cost to my customer $0.00.

To remodel our master bath I have to remove the brick from the exterior the fireplace in the family room. After the brick is gone I have to layup stone to match the living room fireplace. Why, I need the brick because I need to change the 6/0 sliding door in the bedroom to a 3/0 swinging door that I'm making. The brick is NLA so I have to steal it from the chimney. All because I need to expand the master bath. Fun with remodeling. [eek]

Tom

Yeah I am learning it's pretty easy to open a can of worms you never asked for with remodel work. And my house is only 10 years old, so relatively speaking to all the old housing stock we have in New England, this is a walk in the park really.

I am going to surgically remove the ledger this weekend, and all that keeps going on in my head, is what can of worms will I be opening when I do that. I am hoping it's ok based on the inspection I did from inside the house, basically the backside of the rim joist, everything looks clean, no signs of water damage. Fingers crossed it's just a plywood cut out. I just assume use PT Ply in that location once I remove it. If the rim joist is rotted I am counting on one of you to come to my house and shoot me!

As far as the brick around the door, thats not factory, that something installed to fill the gap between slider jamb and siding. Any reason you would go with cedar around the door and not a PVC product? I have to admit, if I used a PVC kickboard in the first place, this problem might never have revealed itself. The fact I used wood and it rotted was what set this off. So in that way wood is not bad, even though it's more maintenance.

Also, Tom, I am fairly certain you are recomending I go out and get that TS55r I don't have? I have the rail, for routering, but this deck got in the way of my funds I had set aside for the TS55! I do have a nice little Ryobi cordless circ saw I have been using. Small, portable, does the job a little sloppily, not very precise. But I do like cordless tools for Deck work since I am all over the place with the decking being removed. Total mayhem

 

[skids]

Check with a Home Depot in your area. The isle that has the concrete mix. There you should find Sika products, purchase their construction adhesive (check the exp. date on the bottom of the tube) it is urethane. It is the same product the is used on Wedi tile backer to seal the seams. Use this on your lag holes.Tom

Thanks! I used Sika Sealant all around the slider, their construction sealant, the stuff holds unbelievably well. Dries like fitted rubber actually. In my situation it acted as water trap where I caulked with it at the siding seam at that kickboard. Any reason I would use the adhesive rather than the sealant?

I will use that for the lag holes and check dates. Thx!