Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop

[leakyroof]

Some thoughts and info from reading about the Bosch.

I don't see how skin sensing by SS is enforceable. We've had touch lamps and other touch sensitive devices long before SS was available.

I believe what the items from the other division are the cartridges that force the blade below the table. They are nitrogen cartridges that come from the Bosch automotive division. The cartridge is used to lock seat belts in an accident.

The Bosch does not jamb the blade or use blade motion to lower the blade. It uses the charge from the cartridge to rapidly lower the blade.

Tom

  Pyrotechnic Cartridges are definitely in modern vehicles since you want to tighten the belt on an occupant in a crash and prevent them from sliding under the belt towards the floor as well[called seat belt submarining]
The cartridge fires, the seat belt tightens and you get to replace the whole assembly after a crash since web stretching of the belt material is a very real possibility along with the one-time usage of that cartridge.

 

[JimD]

Paul,

I don't think I hate Steve Gass, I just find his tactics totally unacceptable.  To argue to the regulators that his technology should be mandated on all table saws - with the obvious goal of forcing all manufacturers to pay him his outrageous fee is extremely aggressive and unacceptable to me.  I will avoid providing my money to a person that does this.  The fact that he set such an outrageous fee is my business too since it helped keep his technology unavailable to me without buying it from Gass.  I'd like to see similar technology on other tools too.  But as long as Gass keeps threatening anybody who uses flesh contact technology, we will not see usage expand.  Flesh contacting technology was already used to control lights when Gass started filing patents.  I don't know if that will be considered prior art but it might.  Gass adapted the flesh contacting technology of lights and the rapid deployment of airbags to create the table saw safety device.  I appreciate the fact that he did this but I wish he made it available on a more reasonable basis.

I would also rather enrich Bosch.  I have several Bosch tools that work great.  I bought them because I thought they were the right combination of price and capability.  I didn't buy them because Bosch developed a great new technology that they refused to reasonably make available to others.  If Bosch used the same tactic as SS, I wouldn't buy from them either.

It is not the person I object to, it is his tactics.

Jim

 

[grbmds]

For me, the point is that I want to buy the best, safest, highest quality tools available for the money. If the Bosch table saw had been available with the blade safety mechanism when I needed a table saw, I would have picked the one that seemed to be the best for the money at the time. But, when I wanted a jobsite saw, Sawstop was the only one on the market at that time with a blade brake. Never sorry I bought it though. I don't always agree with the way tool companies do business or how they advertise, but if they have a great tool and it's a tool I need, I won't hesitate to buy it. I don't really understand taking anything into account other than the tool itself, its quality, its value, and its track record as a tool.

 

[Michael Kellough]

The number of people willing to "weigh-in" on this subject (not necessarily in this thread) seems to vastly outnumber the people who understand the facts. Which side they support is usually more political  than rational.

 

[rljatl]

[member=297]Michael Kellough[/member]  What are the facts that people do not understand?

 

[Rip Van Winkle]

A quick search of patents, showed several or more patents, for machine safety systems, designed to automatically stop machines, or tools, if someone, or something, got too close to, or touched, an area or piece of a machine they weren't supposed to or which could cause a safety problem. These patents specifically mention detecting changes in capacitance being used to detect the safety issue. A number of those patents predate the Gass Sawstop patents. One if the patents specifically mentioned power saw blades. Another of those patents actually mentioned the lamps with the capacitance switch that has previously been mentioned in this thread. The Gass sawstop patents seemed like they were trying to split very fine hairs, and the former patents may be the reasons. The former patents may also be some of the reasons Bosch feels the Sawstop patents should not have been granted in the first place. A number of patents were also filed by various power tool manufacturers, and the Power Tool Institute, after Gass recieved his Sawstop patents, and these may be Related to one of the other complaints Bosch made concerning Sawstop.

 

[jimbo51]

Sawstop was the only company willing to actually complete the research and development of this type of saw. Bosch may have had the capability many years ago, but they did not pursue the technology until Sawstop was a significant success.

 

[antss]

a lawyer splitting hairs ?  Really ?  [huh]

SS could and likely will survive even if the case goes against them.  Their cabinet saws are arguably the best around even without the safety feature.  If their jobsite saw isn't up to snuff, then they'll have to adapt. Just like most businesses do when selling machines.  Soon their patent will expire anyway and the floodgates will open forcing a marketplace driven response- not a regulatory one.

Think how much more $$$ SS would have made if they'd started out producing a great saw instead of just trying to shakedown the industry as their first revenue producing idea.

 

[Kevin D.]

For those who have legal backgrounds or just can't fall asleep, here all the legal fillings and court transcripts etc....
https://www.docketalarm.com/cases/I...Mitigation_Technology_and_Components_Thereof/

Have fun!

 

[JimD]

I didn't read the pleadings (thanks for posting) but I did google up the lead lawyers for both sides.  The resume of the Bosch lawyer looks a lot better to me than the SawStop.  But I already expected that so maybe I'm reading things into it.  The Bosch lawyer is from NYC and the SawStop from Washington DC.  Even if I'm right, the better credentialed lawyer doesn't always win but I think it helps.

 

[Holmz]

Elections are generally more of a popularity contest.

The legal findings should be more based upon facts, previous legal precedence, and persuasive arguments.

 

[Paul G]

....If Bosch used the same tactic as SS, I wouldn't buy from them either.

It is not the person I object to, it is his tactics.

Jim

Do you truly think that a company like Bosch hasn't at some point in time supported legislative efforts that helps their bottom line?

 

[antss]

^^^^^^
don't know, do you have any facts to support that assertion ?

It's common knowledge that SS petitioned the government to mandate this tech on ALL table saws. not just those used in public schools, federal projects, or by government agencies- things paid for with government $$$. 

I think many people have a real problem with the government telling them that can't use a $99 table saw in their own garage in rural Montana or Ohio. 

Akin to having them tell you MUST have cooktop burners that won't burn you, or a knife that won't cut you.  What's next ? Maybe a bathtub that's drown proof.

Life is inherently risky - accept the responsibility.

 

[Paul G]

^^^^^^
don't know, do you have any facts to support that assertion ?

It's common knowledge that SS petitioned the government to mandate this tech on ALL table saws. not just those used in public schools, federal projects, or by government agencies- things paid for with government $$$. 

I think many people have a real problem with the government telling them that can't use a $99 table saw in their own garage in rural Montana or Ohio. 

Akin to having them tell you MUST have cooktop burners that won't burn you, or a knife that won't cut you.  What's next ? Maybe a bathtub that's drown proof.

Life is inherently risky - accept the responsibility.

Why do you think Bosch spends a bundle each year lobbying politicians?
http://www.opensecrets.org/lobby/clientsum.php?id=D000056189

And I'm sure this is just a coincidencehttp://www.bosch-climate.us/files/Senator_Shaheen_Visit_to_Bosch_T_May_8_2015T_US_US.pdf

Or how about their trade memberships, here's a few I could dig up that are active in legislative advocacy
https://www.oesa.org/become-member/member-listhttps://www.ana.net/members/list

Oh and google "Robert Bosch llc patent lawsuits" and you'll see they are quite busy in that dept as both plaintiff and defendant.

They aren't saints, this is how big business works. Grease, mutual back scratching, more grease, fill the courts with lawsuits. Anything for an edge.

As for govt forcing products for safety on the public, it happens all the time. Seat belts, air bags, motorcycle helmets, gun locks and dissabled pool lifts are just a few that came to mind. Who do you think pushes for this stuff? Most certainly the makers of these products or their surrogates are eager to lend their support.

Are folks so naive to this?

 

[semenza]

Skirting on the edge of politics. Please make sure it doesn't turn down the political road.

Seth

 

[Holmz]

Skirting on the edge of politics. Please make sure it doesn't turn down the political road cul-de-sac.

Seth

[member=1619]SRSemenza[/member] Corrected ^the misspelling^ [big grin]

It is interesting that SS did not offer some licensing of the technology. It does go against the model of producing saws, but seems like it would have been a money maker.

 

[tjbnwi]

Skirting on the edge of politics. Please make sure it doesn't turn down the political road cul-de-sac.

Seth

[member=1619]SRSemenza[/member] Corrected ^the misspelling^ [big grin]

It is interesting that SS did not offer some licensing of the technology. It does go against the model of producing saws, but seems like it would have been a money maker.

SS offered licensing of their system, from what I've read, it bordered on an insane amount per unit.

Tom

 

[antss]

.......and the offer was politely declined.  The marketplace spoke, and instead of adjusting pricing like many business; SS instead went to get a 2x4 and try to beat them over the head with it.

Paul - those are all outa the Automotive group which is separate from the Tool division - which is what I had in my mind while discussing.  But I will defer that you're technically correct. 

 

[jimbo51]

What was the insane licensing amount? I remember reading 5-8% royalty. Is that an insane amount in this type of situation? A new and different safety device certainly should warrant some premium over a product without it.

 

[Paul G]

What was the insane licensing amount? I remember reading 5-8% royalty. Is that an insane amount in this type of situation? A new and different safety device certainly should warrant some premium over a product without it.

Also what would that be a % of? Everything is negotiable