Brainstorm - Edge jointing with TS55/75?

[score0matic]

This is a cute discussion

Edge jointing with a rail saw is so intuitive,  The reason I bought my TS 55 was after watching a  dealer demo I realized I could joint two unbonded laminate sheets,  does anyone actually believe that no one in in the first 40 years, 1964 When the rail saw came out til 2004, Jointed two boards together?  so what should be credited is who the first American document the process.

Craig

 

[Tezzer]

\

This is true with a table saw or an ordinary circular saw where you only trim
one edge of one board at a time. With the Festool system you can trim two
mating edges simultaneously, face up with the grain matching as you like.

You don't need to flip boards since any negative pitch on one edge of a pair
of boards is matched by an equal positive pitch on the edge of the mating board,
automatically.

You flip it to eliminate tear out on the right side board that dosnt have the strip under it.

 

[Michael Kellough]

\

This is true with a table saw or an ordinary circular saw where you only trim
one edge of one board at a time. With the Festool system you can trim two
mating edges simultaneously, face up with the grain matching as you like.

You don't need to flip boards since any negative pitch on one edge of a pair
of boards is matched by an equal positive pitch on the edge of the mating board,
automatically.

You flip it to eliminate tear out on the right side board that dosnt have the strip under it.

I usually just apply adhesive tape to the joint. I use the tape anyway
to secure the outboard plank from moving during the cut and the tape
is usually good enough to prevent tear out. When it isn't I lay a thin strip
of sacrificial ply down so it just overlaps the joint. That strip is wide enough
to fully support the guide rail, ideally.

The technique of cutting two boards simultaneously to improve their fit is
very old. I read about it being used in crude boat construction on the
Chesapeake River in Colonial days. The boat builder propped two boards
together and ran a handsaw down the joint over and over until it cut wood
off both boards the full length and then they'd fit together perfectly.

 

[kosta]

Woodshop demos is correct with that method (first used and posted by Rob McGilp so credit needs to go to him) Its a terrific way to join 2 boards. Rob cuts his with the faces down so their is zero tear out and 100% perfect joins

To get perfect gluable joints with a CS you have to flip the boards.
The right and widely used method by the pro's is to layout the boards for grain matching.
The next step is to flip every other board.
If your cut isn't 100% perfectly vertical (90 degree) it doesn't matter because the following cut makes up the difference.
It helps to mark  and numbered all the boards before you start cutting.
Cleaning up the rough edges after the CS, ( if needed)  better done with a router or a single pass with a planer.
Cutting at the edge of the board or cleaning up the edges with a CS is problematic because the resistance to the blade is one sided and the blade is going to flex.

This is true with a table saw or an ordinary circular saw where you only trim
one edge of one board at a time. With the Festool system you can trim two
mating edges simultaneously, face up with the grain matching as you like.

You don't need to flip boards since any negative pitch on one edge of a pair
of boards is matched by an equal positive pitch on the edge of the mating board,
automatically.

What is the difference between a  tablesaw, normal CS and a Festool saw on edge cutting?
If the boards are cut with  face up  under the guide rail, the pitch is the same on all the edges.
The only  other way to produce mating edges  is to cut  one edge  with the board under the rail
and the other edge (of the same board) with the board on the right side of  rail. ( only the trimmed part under the rail)

 

[woodshopdemos]

What is the difference between a  tablesaw, normal CS and a Festool saw on edge cutting?
If the boards are cut with  face up  under the guide rail, the pitch is the same on all the edges.
The only  other way to produce mating edges  is to cut  one edge  with the board under the rail
and the other edge (of the same board) with the board on the right side of  rail. ( only the trimmed part under the rail)

With a table saw, it can be near impossible to line up a very rough edge against the fence to make that first cut.

[/quote]

 

[fshanno]

I thought that's what the guided saw was made for, wasn't it?  Even if you have a large jointer it may be good to make that first pass with the guided saw.  One pass will make it straight guaranteed.  Then you can make a  thin pass on the jointer to finish up.  I often get boards that are going to need to have 1/4 to a 1/2 taken off on the ends which would mean several passes on the jointer.  Plus you can angle the guide to align that first edge with the grain.  Plus if the board is a little twisted or bowed it usually doesn't matter because the guide will ride on it and still provide a square cut.

You can use a CS and a guide if the board is (S2S) Flat.
First step is to face joint the board.
Second step is to plane the board for easier edge jointing with a CS.

If the board is twisted or bowed the guide rides on the twisted board and the cut is out of square.
Your first step working with  lumber is to establish one good side for the second step.

It's going to depend on the application.  I'm cutting up lumber fast for kitchen cabinets.  I think you're talking about something else.

I buy FAS - 8' long rough cut - random width hardwood lumber, not surfaced and not straight lined for built-in's.

You simple wouldn't buy a board of that description that was so badly twisted and/or bowed that the Festool guide and TS saw couldn't edge joint it.  We'd just pass over it in the pile.

The Festool guide doesn't ride on such boards, it conforms to their shape.  You could have up to an inch of deflection in bow or twist across the length of the board and the guide will conform nicely.

The TS55/75 on it's guide is an amazing tool.  A CS is a great tool as well but there's a big difference.

 

[Daniel_n]

What is the difference between a  tablesaw, normal CS and a Festool saw on edge cutting?
If the boards are cut with  face up  under the guide rail, the pitch is the same on all the edges.
The only  other way to produce mating edges  is to cut  one edge  with the board under the rail
and the other edge (of the same board) with the board on the right side of  rail. ( only the trimmed part under the rail)

With a table saw, it can be near impossible to line up a very rough edge against the fence to make that first cut.

[/quote]

I am not quite sure I fully understand what you mean - but wouldn't a simple jig like this one: http://woodworking.about.com/od/woodworkingplansdesigns/ss/JointerJig.htm help to make that first cut on the tablesaw? Or are you talking about another cut?

No matter who invented the TS-55-edge-jointing technique that Bob demonstrates on woodshopdemos.com, it looks to be a very smooth and fast technique (I have never used it). But, except not having to flip boards, and the usually superior cut quality of the TS55 compared to most table saw - are there any specific benefits with this method, compared to putting the two pieces on to of eachoter and put them through the table saw, and then flip one of the pieces for a perfect fit?

 

[Daniel_n]

I sold my Unisaw and 8" DJ 20 jointer over a year ago and do everything with the Festool guide rail system. I did that to prove a point and I needed the floor space.
http://woodshopdemos.com/men-fes.htm

Hi John,
How do you face joint now?

Joe

Joe,
  I use the same method...TS55 and long guide rail on worktable. Very fast and accurate. I use the Panther blade but if edge is too rough, I switch and take off a kerf width with one of the fine tooth blades.

John,
Sorry.  I meant how do you surface plane that first rough face?

Joe

I am also interested in the answer to this questions - it would save some space if I could get rid of the jointer

 

[kosta]

What is the difference between a  tablesaw, normal CS and a Festool saw on edge cutting?
If the boards are cut with  face up  under the guide rail, the pitch is the same on all the edges.
The only  other way to produce mating edges  is to cut  one edge  with the board under the rail
and the other edge (of the same board) with the board on the right side of  rail. ( only the trimmed part under the rail)

With a table saw, it can be near impossible to line up a very rough edge against the fence to make that first cut.

[/quote]

I was talking about  jointing for edge gluing boards. To flip or not to flip???
To establish the first edge, the guide rail is  better.
To make the second cut ( to width ) the  very same tool must be used.

You can use the tablesaw with a jig if you have the room to store all your tablesaw jigs :

 

[kosta]

I thought that's what the guided saw was made for, wasn't it?  Even if you have a large jointer it may be good to make that first pass with the guided saw.  One pass will make it straight guaranteed.  Then you can make a  thin pass on the jointer to finish up.  I often get boards that are going to need to have 1/4 to a 1/2 taken off on the ends which would mean several passes on the jointer.  Plus you can angle the guide to align that first edge with the grain.  Plus if the board is a little twisted or bowed it usually doesn't matter because the guide will ride on it and still provide a square cut.

You can use a CS and a guide if the board is (S2S) Flat.
First step is to face joint the board.
Second step is to plane the board for easier edge jointing with a CS.

If the board is twisted or bowed the guide rides on the twisted board and the cut is out of square.
Your first step working with  lumber is to establish one good side for the second step.

It's going to depend on the application.  I'm cutting up lumber fast for kitchen cabinets.  I think you're talking about something else.

I buy FAS - 8' long rough cut - random width hardwood lumber, not surfaced and not straight lined for built-in's.

You simple wouldn't buy a board of that description that was so badly twisted and/or bowed that the Festool guide and TS saw couldn't edge joint it.  We'd just pass over it in the pile.

The Festool guide doesn't ride on such boards, it conforms to their shape.  You could have up to an inch of deflection in bow or twist across the length of the board and the guide will conform nicely.

The TS55/75 on it's guide is an amazing tool.  A CS is a great tool as well but there's a big difference.

If the board is  good and flat we don't have to face joint.
If the board is  bad ( twisted/ warped/ bowed ) we have to follow the steps:
A. Face joint.
B. Plane
C. Clean the edges with a CS and a guide rail.
For  better edge glued boards we have to flip the boards.

About the flexing of the rails to conform with the waves of the board.
The flexing produces flex cuts. You will see that later when the boards have to be flattened for edge  gluing.
This is why the face jointing comes first on bad boards.
If you don't have a jointer you can make a jig for your router and a large diameter bit or
you can use a hand planer to remove the high spots.

 

[woodshopdemos]

John,
Sorry.  I meant how do you surface plane that first rough face?

Joe

I am also interested in the answer to this questions - it would save some space if I could get rid of the jointer
[/quote]

As someone mentioned above, I don't buy wood that is not plane. It may require a run through the planer but for dimensioning not for correction. 

 

[Daniel_n]

John,
Sorry.  I meant how do you surface plane that first rough face?

Joe

I am also interested in the answer to this questions - it would save some space if I could get rid of the jointer

As someone mentioned above, I don't buy wood that is not plane. It may require a run through the planer but for dimensioning not for correction. 
[/quote]

OK, perhaps I should starts with that as well, sounds nice

 

[Aegwyn11]

The thread has really taken off. I guess my initial intention for this post was because I don't currently have a planer or jointer...I'm still building up my "tool stock" and learning before I really start building stuff. I've been looking hard at the combination jointer/planers out there, but this idea popped in my head and I wondered if I needed a jointer at all or if I would be able to do what was needed with just Festool equipment combined with what I've already got (Unisaw). I've got limited space in my shop and a limited budget...a planer tends to take up slightly less space and cost a good bit less than a comparable jointer/planer. So here's more questions...particularly to those (like woodshopdemos) not using a separate jointer at all. Bear in mind I'm a beginner...

1) A lot of people seem to say that lumber needs to be face jointed and planed just before joinery is done as even S4S or S2S boards will have some movement (twist, cup, bow, etc) in them as a result of just sitting there waiting to get used. Is this just not that much of a problem?
2) What do you use to verify lumber is planar before you buy it?
3) Once you get FAS rough cut lumber that is planar, do you just use a planer on both sides to smooth and dimension it?

 

[fshanno]

I thought that's what the guided saw was made for, wasn't it?  Even if you have a large jointer it may be good to make that first pass with the guided saw.  One pass will make it straight guaranteed.  Then you can make a  thin pass on the jointer to finish up.  I often get boards that are going to need to have 1/4 to a 1/2 taken off on the ends which would mean several passes on the jointer.  Plus you can angle the guide to align that first edge with the grain.  Plus if the board is a little twisted or bowed it usually doesn't matter because the guide will ride on it and still provide a square cut.

You can use a CS and a guide if the board is (S2S) Flat.
First step is to face joint the board.
Second step is to plane the board for easier edge jointing with a CS.

If the board is twisted or bowed the guide rides on the twisted board and the cut is out of square.
Your first step working with  lumber is to establish one good side for the second step.

It's going to depend on the application.  I'm cutting up lumber fast for kitchen cabinets.  I think you're talking about something else.

I buy FAS - 8' long rough cut - random width hardwood lumber, not surfaced and not straight lined for built-in's.

You simple wouldn't buy a board of that description that was so badly twisted and/or bowed that the Festool guide and TS saw couldn't edge joint it.  We'd just pass over it in the pile.

The Festool guide doesn't ride on such boards, it conforms to their shape.  You could have up to an inch of deflection in bow or twist across the length of the board and the guide will conform nicely.

The TS55/75 on it's guide is an amazing tool.  A CS is a great tool as well but there's a big difference.

If the board is  good and flat we don't have to face joint.
If the board is  bad ( twisted/ warped/ bowed ) we have to follow the steps:
A. Face joint.
B. Plane
C. Clean the edges with a CS and a guide rail.
For  better edge glued boards we have to flip the boards.

About the flexing of the rails to conform with the waves of the board.
The flexing produces flex cuts. You will see that later when the boards have to be flattened for edge  gluing.
This is why the face jointing comes first on bad boards.
If you don't have a jointer you can make a jig for your router and a large diameter bit or
you can use a hand planer to remove the high spots.

You're right.  Boards need to be flat and there is certainly no point in edge jointing a board that you intend to face joint later. 

The classic methodolgy you suggest is the way to go.  I do a lot of meatball cabinetry and get by even using bowed and twisted boards because the TS55 on it's guide is such a remarkable tool.  It's best used to edge joint a flat board.

 

[fshanno]

The thread has really taken off. I guess my initial intention for this post was because I don't currently have a planer or jointer...I'm still building up my "tool stock" and learning before I really start building stuff. I've been looking hard at the combination jointer/planers out there, but this idea popped in my head and I wondered if I needed a jointer at all or if I would be able to do what was needed with just Festool equipment combined with what I've already got (Unisaw). I've got limited space in my shop and a limited budget...a planer tends to take up slightly less space and cost a good bit less than a comparable jointer/planer. So here's more questions...particularly to those (like woodshopdemos) not using a separate jointer at all. Bear in mind I'm a beginner...

1) A lot of people seem to say that lumber needs to be face jointed and planed just before joinery is done as even S4S or S2S boards will have some movement (twist, cup, bow, etc) in them as a result of just sitting there waiting to get used. Is this just not that much of a problem?
2) What do you use to verify lumber is planar before you buy it?
3) Once you get FAS rough cut lumber that is planar, do you just use a planer on both sides to smooth and dimension it?

You're a beginner with a Unisaw?  That's the way to begin alright.  I was a beginner with a Craftsman direct drive contractor saw.  I recently upgraded to a saw that's still not as good as your Unisaw.

I've had my TS55 for about 2 years.  I bought a planer soon after and just bought a jointer about 2 months ago.  If that tells you anything.

 

[Aegwyn11]

I try to research the crap out of things before pulling the trigger on anything...was in the middle of looking for a good hybrid saw and they announced the new unisaw and POOF, the "old" unisaw's my local dealer had were all of a sudden cheeep. A little "negotiating", and I spent only marginally more than I had budgeted for a good hybrid saw I got myself the master plate/super bar yesterday and squared the blade to the table to within 1/1000th of an inch (it was only 5/1000ths off to begin with). I'm gonna pick up some scrap wood and a good blade today and start playing with joining boards together. I figure I'll see how that goes, then possibly pick up a TS55 or 75 and see how much that helps. The more I think about it I think I'd like to go this route for a while and try to get a feel for how much face jointing I might actually need to do so that I can make a more educated decision on a jointer/planer.

 

[ForumMFG]

True,  If your table saw has a splitter, make sure you tighten it if you ever need to loosen it for blade changes, etc.  Today we had a guy loosen the splitter and change the blade.  After he changed the blade he forgot to tighten the splitter back up.  He turned on the machine, walked away for a second and the splitter came in contact with the blade.  The splitter took 14 teeth off the blade.  If someone would have been making a cut while this happened I'm sure his/her face and body wouldn't be to happy now.  There are to many nasty stories not to take a table saw seriously or educate yourself the correct way before you use one.  Table saws don't have any feelings and don't care about you at all.  It knows one thing and thats to make cuts.  It doesn't matter if it's your finger or a piece of wood.

 

[Aegwyn11]

No problem, not condescending at all. I'm very much a newbie to woodworking, but not necessarily power tools. I appreciate the comments and personally think that those types of basic tips are good things to remember even for seasoned pro's...being comfortable with tools is good, but also can be very very bad....  One thing that I was really impressed with right away is how the Unisaw goes from 0 to kill in a fraction of a second. Impressive, but scary too..

 

[fshanno]

I try to research the crap out of things before pulling the trigger on anything...was in the middle of looking for a good hybrid saw and they announced the new unisaw and POOF, the "old" unisaw's my local dealer had were all of a sudden cheeep. A little "negotiating", and I spent only marginally more than I had budgeted for a good hybrid saw I got myself the master plate/super bar yesterday and squared the blade to the table to within 1/1000th of an inch (it was only 5/1000ths off to begin with). I'm gonna pick up some scrap wood and a good blade today and start playing with joining boards together. I figure I'll see how that goes, then possibly pick up a TS55 or 75 and see how much that helps. The more I think about it I think I'd like to go this route for a while and try to get a feel for how much face jointing I might actually need to do so that I can make a more educated decision on a jointer/planer.

Don't tell me how much you paid.  It won't do me any good.  Actually, I did ok too.  I caught a sale at Home Depot and got the Ridgid granite top TS, the Ridgid 6" jointer and a Ridgid 10" miter saw for $1093 delivered. 

I think you have a good plan.  Don't rush in, keep your eyes open for a deal.

As for me, I think I'm ready to factor the jointer into my workflow.  I went out today and face jointed a couple of small boards on my little Ridgid jointer for the first time.  Wonder of wonders!  It works!  You can make a bowed board flat and I mean dead flat.  It's really a kick to use.  You kind of feel proud when you test the board with a straight edge.  But I'll still be doing most edge jointing with the guide because it's one pass and you're done.

This jointer won't let you face joint boards that are 's less than 3/4" thick.  There's a notch in the pork chop guard so a thinner board won't push it asside.  For those in the know regarding jointers; that's not a regulatory requirement is it?  I understand that jointing a board that's too thin could cause the board to break or collapse somehow which could cause serious injury but excluding everything under 3/4" seems over protective.

 

[fshanno]

On of my board is not flat any more.  Yesterday afternoon it was flat flat flat on one face after jointing.  The other face was curved, fat in the middle.  I didn't plane it parallel.  Today it's fat in the middle and curved on both faces.  I suppose I can plane that out.  But it struck me as funny.  Wood is a funny thing.  This wood is steamed European Beech and that stuff is funnier than most.  I wonder if this would have happened had I planed the other face parallel?  This kind of reminds me of veneering.

And maybe you better tell me how much that Unisaw was after all.  Low and behold, today I got wind of a recall on my Ridgid R4511 granite top.  It seems that a dado stack might make the arbor shaft come apart and throw shiney spinning blades and ninga stars about the room.