Can a Domino do this?

[pHWood]

Hi Everyone, I've been lurking for a while and I've learned a lot, so thank you already.  I'm building a loft bed out of 4x4 pine and I'm considering the DF500 for the joinery.  My inspiration came from this video She uses lap joinery here, and in some ways that is still a leading candidate.  In fact, though I think I can figure it out from the video, if anyone has a good reference, then I'd love to know it. 

Thank you

 

[Birdhunter]

Could not see the video

 

[Kevin D.]

Same here.  Couldn't see it.  Just a big blank space where it likely is not coming up.  Using Chrome on Windows 8.1 Desktop.

 

[AlexThePalex]

 

[aloysius]

Yes, I think you could conceivably use either dowel or loose tenon joinery for a similar project.  This would actually significantly reduce the requirement for cutting halving or housing joints.
.
I think you'd be a bit better off using Coach Screws (Lags?? if you're a Seppo) to join your laps together.  I personally don't think the machine screws that are used in the video will provide a sufficiently safe "bite" in softwood.  Their principal use is for installation into threaded holes in metal.

Using screws/bolts makes the whole assembly readily demountable & transportable without having to be destroyed in the process.

Unless you intend to actually mount your platform bed to the wall/s, you'll also need extensive triangulation to the frame to reduce racking stresses & the risk of collapse.

Please carefully consider the safe & secure mounting of an access ladder that won't slip or fall in use, as well as some form of safety or guard rail to prevent the occupant/s falling out when thrashing around in either dreamland or the throes of passion.

 

[Birdhunter]

I’ve built a king size white oak bed frame and headboard for some young friends. They have two small boys who use the bed for a trampoline. So, it has proven sturdy. The frame members were 1.5” by 6”.

I used the Domino 700 dowels paired with the 700 connectors as the frame had to be moved from my shop to their house.

I am a huge fan of the 500, but I don’t think even its biggest tenons, even ganged, are adequate.

Most pine is a weak wood. The connection system has to compensate for the wood’s weakness. I doubt the 500’s connectors are big enough.

A trick I used to make the frame members straight was as follows. I bought an ultra cheap flat front door at Home Depot. They are very flat and very  straight. My lumber was 1” quarter sawn white oak. I laid down one board on the door over a strip of waxed paper. I applied glue and laid the second board down over the first getting the edges lined up. I clamped the board sandwich to the door with a clamp about every 6 inches. Because of the door’s flatness, the glued up boards came off perfectly flat. The boards were easy to trim up and came out perfect. Oh, the door rested on two saw horses.

 

[FestitaMakool]

I would likely advise you to do half lap joints as pr. video.

I made a similar bed with cabinets under a few years ago. I used half lap joints, bought round stock in the dimensions that fitted my drill bits and used trough tenons which I flush cut to secure the joints. The parts I wanted to be able to dismantle I used concealed screws using the same method with round stock friction fitted over the screws with a tiny bit of glue. It has held up perfectly.

 

[Jim_in_PA]

I used the 14mm Dominos and connectors for  a Twin-XL over Queen bunk bed for a client about a year ago and it was very successful. Of course, that's with the larger DF-700XL tool. The 8mm connectors that are usable with the DF-500 may work fine but I agree that the lapped joinery as shown in the video above would absolutely something I would do to help lock things together in a strong way. There will be a lot of stress on this kind of furniture just due to its nature.

 

[mino]

For a start, that video shows a nice but sub-optimal joint (for a bed) as tho most-stressed long support is only supported on 1/2 its width.

For a bed one should allow the full-width of the long support to rest on the pole if possible. This makes sure the join is not stressed vertically but only horizontally. The shorter support can be partially cut to accommodate that is it will not be as stressed dynamically.

Then, a tenon can be used to connect the pole to the long side-support and a /big, 14mm and 70mm long/ Domino would be fine there for the purpose. Still, I would secure it by an adequately long screws should the tenons get lose.

But this is really a task which is much better served bu screws than tenons. A bed has a tendency to move/wiggle and so generally one should use tenon+screw and avoid glue. Exception being a heavy hardwood bed which is mechanically overbuilt and guaranteed to not move at all.

One last, the picture has under-specced the long supports. For a 2 meter (7') spam you want the main support to be at least 1x6 preferably 2x6 (the 6 is important there, not the 2 so 2x3 is no good enough but 2x4 may be fine).

Keep in mind there will be peopl moving => you need to be able to safely handle at least 10kN (2000 pounds) dynamic load and ca 5kN (1000 pounds) static load. This assuming a bare minimum 2x safety margin.

This is from a (bad) personal experience, I used 30x120mm (11/4x5) pine as the side supports and it was squeeking/bending under the load too much. Had to add one more 30x120mm on top and fully tie these together so act like one 30x240mm "beam". A 30x150mm would have been probably the minimum needed as it has twice the strength of 30x120mm.

But doing the design again, I would go for 2x6 or equivalent in metric or more even. And this assuming the beam is not cut/interrupted in the centre like it is here on the video.

 

[ChuckM]

Not a mechanical engineer here. The bed frame looks super super strong...the leg joinery not so much to me given it's all softwood, unless two sides of the bed are in contact with walls, preventing any racking or non-perpendicular stresses or movements. I might consider using that kind of joinery for a small bed.

 

[RobS888]

Yes, I think you could conceivably use either dowel or loose tenon joinery for a similar project.  This would actually significantly reduce the requirement for cutting halving or housing joints.
.
I think you'd be a bit better off using Coach Screws (Lags?? if you're a Seppo) to join your laps together.  I personally don't think the machine screws that are used in the video will provide a sufficiently safe "bite" in softwood.  Their principal use is for installation into threaded holes in metal.

Using screws/bolts makes the whole assembly readily demountable & transportable without having to be destroyed in the process.

Unless you intend to actually mount your platform bed to the wall/s, you'll also need extensive triangulation to the frame to reduce racking stresses & the risk of collapse.

Please carefully consider the safe & secure mounting of an access ladder that won't slip or fall in use, as well as some form of safety or guard rail to prevent the occupant/s falling out when thrashing around in either dreamland or the throes of passion.

Short for septic tank?

 

[Birdhunter]

A king bed usually is 78” by 80”. That size is a lot to ask of pine, even 4” by 4”. Beds get a lot of racking stresses (no pun intended) and the joints have to be very robust. A failed bed frame joint could hurt people.

Can you switch to oak or maple?

 

[Crazyraceguy]

I'm thinking that Dominos would be great for simple alignment and holding the pieces in place as and initial assembly, but would not be strong enough for actual use, especially in softer wood. A single Cross-bolt fastener would probably make it feasible though? It would still maintain the ability to break-down for moving.

 

[aloysius]

Short for septic tank?
[/quote]

To quote Francis Urquhart from "House of Cards":
"You might very well think that;  I couldn't possibly comment".

 

[ChuckM]

I'm thinking that Dominos would be great for simple alignment and holding the pieces in place as and initial assembly, but would not be strong enough for actual use, especially in softer wood.
Snip.

Using hardwood, I've built dining tables, cabinets, bookcases, stools, steps, cupboards, shelving, sawhorses, etc. with dominoes (DF500). Chairs (which many others have done with the DF500) will be my next major build. The only time I use dominoes for alignment is in panel glue-ups.

 

[pHWood]

Wow!  Thank you all so kindly.  Many responses that I could make here, but I'll try to be brief - what is the emoji for "now less sure what to do than when I asked the question"?  (Thank you to Alex for knowing which video and posting it correctly). 

This will be a twin XL sized bed, but now I'm questioning my direction.  I had been thinking of a different style of bed, maybe I should go back to this one.  It is held together with dowels and connectors.  I do believe that I read on the site somewhere that it is 3/4" plywood.

FWIW, i would still stick with stairs similar to the video rather than a ladder. 

Back to the first one, I'm don't look at those joints where the three pieces meet as fun to do - it seems like it would very easy to snap off a piece before I could get it screwed together.  That would be a two-fold problem of hers because I was not planning on bolting this one to the wall - so that means two additional vertical supports and associated joints.  Three would also be an additional horizontal supports on two sides with a built-in bookshelf and a integral desk running the length.  The more I type, the more I like the second option.  That said, I very much appreciate your comments and suggestions - I welcome additional feedback. 

Mino: thank you for the numbers - that's something I need.  Even if they do seem high, but safe often looks like that.

 

[aloysius]

The bed must be secured in some way:  triangulation, gussetting, or rigid wall mounting.  THIS IS IMPERATIVE 

Can you see how the curved ply side panel edges actively provide rigidity by passing around the top panel intersections?  Something of this ilk will be mandatory for any free-standing platform bed structure.

Without, the whole assembly will rack, the joints will fail, and the whole kit & caboodle collapse.  The Canadian bunk bed you've linked is a tiny single children's bed.  The dimensions & design ARE undoubtedly adequate for purpose, but not for your intended size & use!

19mm ply is insufficient to use as a base alone.  You'll need at least a top-to-bottom (i.e. foot-to-head) 150 x 32mm reinforcing beam down the middle underside to prevent sag.  You can't just "scale up" others' designs without compensating for the additional stresses of the larger structure & spans, which increase exponentially as a logarithmic rather than direct function of increase.

A wider &/or longer structure than that depicted must be heavily reinforced, triangulated and significantly over-engineered to allow for the extreme stresses induced by any anticipated activity.  A bedroom mazurka for two, a threesome, pillow fights by children etc.

Any base material, either ply or slats, must be well perforated to allow adequate ventilation of the mattress base to prevent condensation and moulds developing.

 

[Birdhunter]

I wanted to show the king bed frame and headboard I made to show the construction details.

 

[Gregor]

"now less sure what to do than when I asked the question"

Simple thing when thinking about joints: make one of the ones you think about, then test them to destruction.

Afterwards you'll know more, especially about how long it takes to make each and how much load it'll likely bear before failing.