Can a Festool Midi or Mini vacuum accept Festool HEPA filters?

[Bob Marino]

Bob
What is realy cool about your wager is this is actually fairly easy to test [blink]  (with about $700 worth of montitoring equipmnet that i will be buying in the next few months) I learned all about OSHA air testing protocals for derermining  respotory hasards and the proper level PPE (read  NIOSH rated resporators)  I am guessing that it it the tool selection and process rather than the vac that will show the issues.  lets say an ets 150 /3 with 400 brillant on oak for 45 min.  weigh the test block before  and then after  the ct test  with a breather and test cassette ( this is an air pump that sucks at a given rate that you wear.  with a tube and test Cassette (filter) that you clip to your  collar "breathing space" .  run it again with the mini  weighing the block and making sure the sander is removing a statistically similar amount in the same time.  send both test cassettes to a lab and see if there is a difference in the oak particle count.

Craig

Craig,

I agree that it would be an easy test to perform and also that technique may have more to do with actual inhalation of dust than what level of filtration the person is using. There are just a lot of variables in the shop enviorment that figure into the dust inhalation mix - level of vac suction,  type of paper and/or material being sanded/routed/planed/sawn, amount of time the sander is overlapping the material, etc. etc.

Bob

 

[Jesus Aleman]

Depending on your primary use for the vacuum (shop or site), installation of the boom arm may be a consideration for you.  I believe the boom arm only fits on the CT22/33 modules.

 

[Bob Marino]

I believe the boom arm only fits on the CT22/33 modules.

That's correct.

Bob

 

[Brice Burrell]

Dan, this is a good point but I'm not sure pet dander is sub-micron sized. It could be, I don't know.

According to my searches, pet dander is about 2.5 microns.

I thought the website below was an interesting illustration.  We talk about microns all the time when it comes to our HEPA filtration.  This is a cool visual.  Use the silder bar under the image to zoom in and out.

http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/content/begin/cells/scale/

Lysosome is where it gets down to one micron in size.  Our HEPA filtration is 99.9% at .3 microns.

Great link Shane. I was pretty sure pet dander wasn't sub-micron in size. As the helps illustrate, a micron is much smaller than most people think. In a conversation I once had about HEPA filtration, as it relates to woodworking, someone once told me you'd have to set your wood on fire and the smoke particles would still be around one micron. I have no idea if that's correct or not, if so, that really helps put things in perspective.

Depending on your primary use for the vacuum (shop or site), installation of the boom arm may be a consideration for you.  I believe the boom arm only fits on the CT22/33 modules.

Love the boom arm, best money I've ever spent.

 

[Administrator_JSVN]

Some more micron measurements for perspective but I think that website I linked to tells the story the best.

Eye of a Needle - 1,230 microns
Human Hair  - 40 to 300 microns
Oil Smoke  - 0.03 to 1 micron
Fertilizer - 10 to 1000 microns
Tobacco Smoke - 0.01 to 1 microns
Coal Dust - 1 to 100 microns
Beach Sand - 100 to 2000 microns
Mold Spores - 10 to 30 microns
Pollens - 10 to 1000 microns
Typical Atmospheric Dust - 0.001 to 30 microns
Grain of Table Salt - 100 microns
Wood smoke particles - generally less than 2.5 microns

You can't see objects smaller than 40 microns with the naked eye.

Edit: Some interesting information from OSHA about the toxicity of wood dust.

 

[dburetta69]

Hi All.  First time to the website.  I work as a Project Manager for a painting contractor in Massachusetts.  I was just certified as a Certified Renovator under the EPA's new lead RRP rules.  It will now require us to have all vacs HEPA rated.  That is original equip, not retrofit like Bob Marino was saying.  Unfortunately, along with our 8 CT22's we also have 8 CT Minis.  Under the EPA giudlines, I will assume we can't use these because the are technically a retrofit.  Anyone employed by Festool have a read on this?  We've invested a ton of money on this and now (when we are in a lead situation, which is very often) we'll need HEPA.  We could still use the Minis on non lead jobs, but what a bummer.  Damn feds!.  Measly 32K fine for non compliance.  No biggie.  Thanks for all your help.  This site will definitely help with ?'s in the future.
David

 

[Bob Marino]

It will now require us to have all vacs HEPA rated.  That is original equip, not retrofit like Bob Marino was saying.  

David

 David,

What am I missing here? What "retrofit" did I recommend?

Bob

 

[Brice Burrell]

Welcome to the forum David! I bet when the HEPA filters become available for the CT Mini/Midi vacs they will be standard on all new vacs. Technically speaking, you're probably right about your mini vacs, if what I said about the HEPAs becoming standard, I won't tell the EPA your's are retrofits.

 

[Brice Burrell]

It will now require us to have all vacs HEPA rated.  That is original equip, not retrofit like Bob Marino was saying. 

David

  David,

What am I missing here? What "retofit" did I recommend?

Bob

Bob, I believe he is referring to the HEPA filters for the mini/midis.

 

[dburetta69]

Thanks Brice.  Bob, I inferred from your statement that the Mini/Midi do not comply with HEPA requirements, that the new HEPA's you can buy now, would inherently be "retrofit's".  Sorry for the confusion.  I looked on Festool USA's website today and couldn't find the HEPA's listed.  Did one of you say there were some distributors offering it??  Thanks.

 

[tbellemare]

They're not available quite yet, David.

Tom

 

[chrisrosenb]

Thanks Brice.  Bob, I inferred from your statement that the Mini/Midi do not comply with HEPA requirements, that the new HEPA's you can buy now, would inherently be "retrofit's".  Sorry for the confusion.  I looked on Festool USA's website today and couldn't find the HEPA's listed.  Did one of you say there were some distributors offering it??  Thanks.

The HEPA filters for the mini/midi vacs are listed in the 2009 printed catalog, but are not yet available.
I do not understand the retro fit part.
Any vac that does not have HEPA filters from the factory would be considered retrofitted if you later added HEPA filters.
Is this correct?

 

[Bob Marino]

Thanks Brice.  Bob, I inferred from your statement that the Mini/Midi do not comply with HEPA requirements, that the new HEPA's you can buy now, would inherently be "retrofit's".  Sorry for the confusion.  I looked on Festool USA's website today and couldn't find the HEPA's listed.  Did one of you say there were some distributors offering it??  Thanks.

I see. Ok, at this point, I am not sure if they do or they don't comply, perhaps Festool can clarify, but as Tom noted, the HEPA's for the MINI/MIDI are not yet available.

Bob

 

[Administrator_JSVN]

The CTs are currently being tested for compliance with the requirements.  We have not yet received the test results.  As soon as the results are received, we will be able to provide additional information.

 

[score0matic]

Any vac that does not have HEPA filters from the factory would be considered retrofitted if you later added HEPA filters.
Is this correct?

Not necessarily

You can add HEPA filters to vac's that are designed around HEPA and then been fited form the factory with other filters and be fine.  For instance you can put a HEPA filter on a Nilfisk Advance GM-80CR Vacuum - ULPA  and derate it [blink] 
or add the HEPA  Filter to the Attix 8 Basic Super Quiet Wet/Dry Vacuum and it will be the same as it's 
factory HEPA brother. 
you can't add a fitler to a vac that wasnt designed around the filter in the first place.

One thing the new regs will do is bring about Cheaper Fully compliant Hepa Vac's from Craftsman, Ridgid, and Shopvac. As HD, Sears, and Lowes will have a new market for them

Craig

 

[Simon O]

The CTs are currently being tested for compliance with the requirements.  We have not yet received the test results.  As soon as the results are received, we will be able to provide additional information.

Just been reading this thread, and I'd like to know the conclusion - what were the test results? And furthermore are Alex's comments concerning the effective redundancy of Hepa filters, something that Festool would agree with? If not, what would Festool cite as evidence to the contrary? I don't suppose anyone's attempted Bob's suggestion of comparing standard and Hepa filters?

 

[AlexThePalex]

The CTs are currently being tested for compliance with the requirements.  We have not yet received the test results.  As soon as the results are received, we will be able to provide additional information.

Just been reading this thread, and I'd like to know the conclusion - what were the test results? And furthermore are Alex's comments concerning the effective redundancy of Hepa filters, something that Festool would agree with? If not, what would Festool cite as evidence to the contrary? I don't suppose anyone's attempted Bob's suggestion of comparing standard and Hepa filters?

Wow, a blast from the past.

Today, most current Festool vacs are available as a fully HEPA qualified vacuum. This was not the case back in 2009 when this thread was valid. If you put a HEPA filter in your Festool vac today, it has a real effect.

HEPA filters do deliver better filtration than the standard filters, which are of the European L class. This means the vac blows out less particles if fitted with HEPA filters, something which might be of benefit when working indoors and/or with hazardous materials like lead paint and asbestos.

Still remains the fact that not all dust is captured at the source, and then the question if the HEPA benefit really adds something to the protection of your health. I have never seen any test results that compare this between different filters. It is probably also very difficult to measure the actual impact on your health. But with hazardous materials, less exposure is always better. 

 

[Simon O]

Which festool extractors are not fully Hepa qualified vacuum?

Are European midis and minis and for that matter ctl sys, not fully Hepa qualified, whereas N.American ones are?

What does a fully qualified Hepa vacuum mean in design terms? Are the seals better made?

Wouldn't it be comparitively easy for a manufacturer to demonstrate the relative efficiency of different filters?

 

[Simon O]

So the answer to the first question is - AC models, as the hepa filters don't like all that shaking, if memory serves me right.

Still not sure about the answers to the other questions though.I wonder if someone from Festool could provide some clarity here?

I noticed [member=41214]Phil Beckley[/member] was around not too long ago?

 

[AlexThePalex]

Which festool extractors are not fully Hepa qualified vacuum?

Check the Festool USA website. If a vac is HEPA it is mentioned.

Are European midis and minis and for that matter ctl sys, not fully Hepa qualified, whereas N.American ones are?

HEPA is an American standard and does not apply in Europe. Europe devides vacs into L, M and H dust classes.

What does a fully qualified Hepa vacuum mean in design terms? Are the seals better made?

It means the entire system, ie vac, filter and dustbag expells less particles than the HEPA norm specifies. Seals indeed play a part here.

Wouldn't it be comparitively easy for a manufacturer to demonstrate the relative efficiency of different filters?

Maybe. I don't know. They have of course test equipment that can measure dust levels. That's how filters and vacs are specified for certain categories. But it is a whole different challenge to determine the actual effect of dust in the air on your health.