Can a Festool Midi or Mini vacuum accept Festool HEPA filters?

[Simon O]

Thanks for the comprehensive reply Alex. [smile]
The last couple of questions were more for a Festool representative.
A question I'm skirting around is - if European non AC extractors size 26 and above take Hepa filters and European ctl sys/mini/midi extractors do not - does that mean the latter models are Not Hepa certified/don't have the correct seals? as opposed to the American models.
Just to be clear Hepa filters provide the most effective filtration and they are available in Europe - so what is the relevance of American standards? We're after effective filtering aren't we? - no disrespect intended, just puzzled. ???

 

[Simon O]

Perhaps a Festool representative could help out here?

 

[Simon O]

Any Festool representative would do, I'm not fussy  [big grin]

 

[semenza]

[member=62623]Simon O[/member]  It seems that you are in Europe? So you are looking for some detail on the CT line in regards to HEPA available in Europe? 

It would seem that the American Standards would be relevant in America and the European standards would be relevant in Europe at least in regard to what is available to purchase and what is acceptable on work sites as opposed to which are actually providing better filtration. I am not sure you will get a detailed test report answer from Festool or any company. Maybe , but it seems more likely that companies will only provide the fact that a unit has met or exceeded the relevant standards.

Perhaps [member=41214]Phil Beckley[/member]  will pop in here with some more info but I think in reality the questions you pose are pretty well answered already. I would think that info regarding which CTs have suitable filtration levels for which types of work would be available in product information.

Not sure any of that helps but ........................

Seth

 

[Simon O]

Thanks for responding Seth. I have to say your statement - "
"It would seem that the American Standards would be relevant in America and the European standards would be relevant in Europe at least in regard to what is available to purchase and what is acceptable on work sites as opposed to which are actually providing better filtration. I am not sure you will get a detailed test report answer from Festool or any company. " has me confused, could you clarify? Also, is a detailed test report, too much to ask for, where the everyday user (me and a fair few others) is concerned? Presumably it wouldn't be difficult to generate, or is the entire industry driven only by the standards required of it by law? 

I appreciate there are different health and safety directives in America and Europe, but my interest here is the efficiency of the system - specifically the quality of the exhausted air.

HEPA is an American standard, but Hepa filters are available in Europe.

So here (I'm looking at UK information) in the case of the 26 size extractors, there is -         

a) 496170 filter (would that be cellulose? - filters particles down to one micron);

b) 496171 filter (Hepa - what exactly is this made from? ePTFE? glass fibre? - filters particles down to 0.3microns);

c) 496172 filter (described as high performance and used in AC extractors, what's this made from spun bound polyester/nano coated polyester? and what does it filter down to?)

d) 498995 filter for H class (this is for carcinogenic materials such as asbestos, again what's it made of and what does it filter down to?)

So given that filters installed in dust extractors are designed to filter residual dust not retained by the filter bag (self clean bags filter to 5 microns) so that clean (should that be in inverted commas?) air is directed back into the room, and to protect the motor housing - it makes sense (what ever the standards for a particular country are) to access the system/filter which gives the user (and their clients/coworkers) the cleanest exhausted air possible. 

In my view the American system is far better and simpler than the European system, which I find confusing and disengenuous (viz the difference between class L and M is not to do with the filter supplied, but a warning issued if the air speed falls below a certain value - useful if your hose is blocked or the filter contaminated/bag broken - but I don't see how that filters any better or how the exhausted air is improved (other than user error of course)).

Am I correct in saying all American Festool extractors are fitted with Hepa filters as standard?

And back to my original question - why is that Hepa filters are available in UK for 26 models and bigger, but not Sys, Mini or Midi?

Is there anything I've said above that's inaccurate? 

Perhaps this is a question for a UK or European Festool representative? I'd also be interested in the answers to the questions about the filters themselves, as I couldn't find certain deatils about them online - mainly what they're made from.

 

[antss]

"Am I correct in saying all American Festool extractors are fitted with Hepa filters as standard? "

Yes, USA vacs have HEPA filters and , more importantly - certification.  This is really what the government agencies are looking for.  We can buy HEPA level filters for el cheapo shop vacs, but they aren't certified.  SO , this means they may or may not protect the surrounding air from contaminants.

I think this (HEPA Cert.) is a big part of Festool's marketing of these vacs in the USA. No other lineup is advertised that way, but HEPA filters are available for all of the tool triggered vacs that I'm aware of.  I'm not sure of whether they are certified when fitted with such filter though.

 

[peter halle]

There is a big difference between a vacuum fitted with a HEPA filter and a Certified HEPA unit.  The former has a filter that filters the air going thru it.  The latter has all of the engineering and gaskets in place to ensure that ALL the exiting air is being filtered based on design and gasketing.

Peter

 

[AlexThePalex]

Simon, that's a lot of questions you have there. Coupled with the number of answers you already got, I am wondering what exactly you are after. Are you simply trying to find the vac and filter that bests suits you, or are you trying to get into the vac manufacturing business yourself? Because the answers you're looking for seem to go a bit beyond what the average user needs to know.

Also, is a detailed test report, too much to ask for, where the everyday user (me and a fair few others) is concerned? Presumably it wouldn't be difficult to generate, or is the entire industry driven only by the standards required of it by law? 

Welcome to the world of marketing, and a derivative - liability. Any company will tell you their product is the best in the world and all you need to buy. A company will tell you anything you want to hear, as long as they can get away with it. Then to make sure companies don't completely rip you off or endanger your health, the government will set certain standards, and companies will comply to those standards mainly to avoid liability. Nothing else.

Giving out detailed test reports to buyers doesn't fit into that philosophy, because they will only give consumers reason for liability suits if a product doesn't add up. Plenty of real world examples available, for instance the recent Volkswagen emissions scandal.

In my view the American system is far better and simpler than the European system, which I find confusing and disengenuous

Simpler, yes. A choice between to HEPA or not to HEPA, nothing more. Of course two choices is simpler then 3 or more. But can you fit all real world scenarios into just 2 categories? I doubt it.

Am I correct in saying all American Festool extractors are fitted with Hepa filters as standard?

NO, not correct. As I have already stated above, you can check the Festool USA website to see which vacs are HEPA and which not. Apparently in your quest for answers you didn't bother to do that.

And back to my original question - why is that Hepa filters are available in UK for 26 models and bigger, but not Sys, Mini or Midi?

A mere marketing decision. HEPA is for AMERICA, not Europe. Festool decided to try it out over here on their flagship models the 26 and 36 vacs and not their smaller ones. So far, I doubt they're big sellers, costing 3 times as much and offering just a miniscule improvement.

I'd also be interested in the answers to the questions about the filters themselves, as I couldn't find certain deatils about them online - mainly what they're made from.

Why is that important, from the viewpoint of a user? Seems like a bit of a trade secret to me. I don't know if you've encountered this before, but companies tend not to share all these answers you seek with the public. I am not surprised no Festool representative weighs in on this matter.

 

[antss]

Alex  - all U.S. vacs (except the auto clean version) are HEPA certified.

CT SYS, Mini, Midi, 26, 36, and 48 all come with HEPA filters and certification as standard.  Almost no one buys the 36ac without a Planex and HEPA filter on that would be a liability.

They do buy a lot of ct26's though.  A long with the Midi, it's probably the most popular.

 

[AlexThePalex]

Alex  - all U.S. vacs (except the auto clean version) are HEPA certified.

All - except.

 

[Magpal]

Thanks for responding Seth. I have to say your statement - "
"It would seem that the American Standards would be relevant in America and the European standards would be relevant in Europe at least in regard to what is available to purchase and what is acceptable on work sites as opposed to which are actually providing better filtration. I am not sure you will get a detailed test report answer from Festool or any company. " has me confused, could you clarify? Also, is a detailed test report, too much to ask for, where the everyday user (me and a fair few others) is concerned? Presumably it wouldn't be difficult to generate, or is the entire industry driven only by the standards required of it by law? 

I appreciate there are different health and safety directives in America and Europe, but my interest here is the efficiency of the system - specifically the quality of the exhausted air.

HEPA is an American standard, but Hepa filters are available in Europe.

So here (I'm looking at UK information) in the case of the 26 size extractors, there is -         

a) 496170 filter (would that be cellulose? - filters particles down to one micron);

b) 496171 filter (Hepa - what exactly is this made from? ePTFE? glass fibre? - filters particles down to 0.3microns);

c) 496172 filter (described as high performance and used in AC extractors, what's this made from spun bound polyester/nano coated polyester? and what does it filter down to?)

d) 498995 filter for H class (this is for carcinogenic materials such as asbestos, again what's it made of and what does it filter down to?)

So given that filters installed in dust extractors are designed to filter residual dust not retained by the filter bag (self clean bags filter to 5 microns) so that clean (should that be in inverted commas?) air is directed back into the room, and to protect the motor housing - it makes sense (what ever the standards for a particular country are) to access the system/filter which gives the user (and their clients/coworkers) the cleanest exhausted air possible. 

In my view the American system is far better and simpler than the European system, which I find confusing and disengenuous (viz the difference between class L and M is not to do with the filter supplied, but a warning issued if the air speed falls below a certain value - useful if your hose is blocked or the filter contaminated/bag broken - but I don't see how that filters any better or how the exhausted air is improved (other than user error of course)).

Am I correct in saying all American Festool extractors are fitted with Hepa filters as standard?

And back to my original question - why is that Hepa filters are available in UK for 26 models and bigger, but not Sys, Mini or Midi?

Is there anything I've said above that's inaccurate? 

Perhaps this is a question for a UK or European Festool representative? I'd also be interested in the answers to the questions about the filters themselves, as I couldn't find certain deatils about them online - mainly what they're made from.

I think it is good questions and I tried to dig into this myself a while a go.http://festoolownersgroup.com/festo...midi-dust-classification/msg386265/#msg386265

The filtration of the HEPA-filters seem to be better in terms of particle size. The European MIDI is equipped with 1 micron filters while HEPA will filter down to 0.3 micron. Even though there are a lot less particles below 1micron, it still seem to be present for hardwoods (check for instance "A Study on Dust Emission, Particle Size Distributionand Formaldehyde Concentration During Machiningof Medium Density Fibreboard" on google).

I am still curious to why the HEPA-option is not available for the MIDI in EU and why the US regulatory is so much stricter on particle size filtration. Why would the EU care less about health and safety? (or is it really a problem in practice?)

 

[Simon O]

There is a big difference between a vacuum fitted with a HEPA filter and a Certified HEPA unit.  The former has a filter that filters the air going thru it.  The latter has all of the engineering and gaskets in place to ensure that ALL the exiting air is being filtered based on design and gasketing.

Peter

Given the above being accurate - and it makes sense to me - what are the design differences re 'gasketing', between the American Midi, Mini and Sys, and the European models.

 

[Simon O]

Simon, that's a lot of questions you have there. Coupled with the number of answers you already got, I am wondering what exactly you are after. Are you simply trying to find the vac and filter that bests suits you, or are you trying to get into the vac manufacturing business yourself? Because the answers you're looking for seem to go a bit beyond what the average user needs to know.

Also, is a detailed test report, too much to ask for, where the everyday user (me and a fair few others) is concerned? Presumably it wouldn't be difficult to generate, or is the entire industry driven only by the standards required of it by law? 

Welcome to the world of marketing, and a derivative - liability. Any company will tell you their product is the best in the world and all you need to buy. A company will tell you anything you want to hear, as long as they can get away with it. Then to make sure companies don't completely rip you off or endanger your health, the government will set certain standards, and companies will comply to those standards mainly to avoid liability. Nothing else.

Giving out detailed test reports to buyers doesn't fit into that philosophy, because they will only give consumers reason for liability suits if a product doesn't add up. Plenty of real world examples available, for instance the recent Volkswagen emissions scandal.

In my view the American system is far better and simpler than the European system, which I find confusing and disengenuous

Simpler, yes. A choice between to HEPA or not to HEPA, nothing more. Of course two choices is simpler then 3 or more. But can you fit all real world scenarios into just 2 categories? I doubt it.

Am I correct in saying all American Festool extractors are fitted with Hepa filters as standard?

NO, not correct. As I have already stated above, you can check the Festool USA website to see which vacs are HEPA and which not. if European non AC extractors size 26 and above take Hepa filters

And back to my original question - why is that Hepa filters are available in UK for 26 models and bigger, but not Sys, Mini or Midi?

A mere marketing decision. HEPA is for AMERICA, not Europe. Festool decided to try it out over here on their flagship models the 26 and 36 vacs and not their smaller ones. So far, I doubt they're big sellers, costing 3 times as much and offering just a miniscule improvement.

I'd also be interested in the answers to the questions about the filters themselves, as I couldn't find certain deatils about them online - mainly what they're made from.

Why is that important, from the viewpoint of a user? Seems like a bit of a trade secret to me. I don't know if you've encountered this before, but companies tend not to share all these answers you seek with the public. I am not surprised no Festool representative weighs in on this matter.

Really? I'm asking too many questions and they go beyond what the average user needs to know? How do you define the average user, and where do you place the limits of what they need to know?
I've just spent 3 days sanding oak boards, is that average use? In an area which directly affects the health of both 'average' users and what? less average users? . . . anyway just users - why not ask the questions? Particularly here, where there is the opportunity for an informed dialogue. I'm not sure some of your comments re my queries are  helping in that department.
You need to read my posts - "if European non AC extractors size 26 and above take Hepa filters"  and
"So the answer to the first question is - AC models, as the hepa filters don't like all that shaking, if memory serves me right."
So this comment by you - "  Apparently in your quest for answers you didn't bother to do that. " is not only wrong but confuses the issue. As stated in the post above - one of my questions is simply what is the difference in design between an American Midi Mini or Sys and European Midi Mini or Sys extractors, which makes the American ones, certified Hepa as Peter commented and not the European ones?

"A mere marketing decision. HEPA is for AMERICA, not Europe. Festool decided to try it out over here on their flagship models the 26 and 36 vacs and not their smaller ones. So far, I doubt they're big sellers, costing 3 times as much and offering just a miniscule improvement."

You're privy to Festool's marketing strategy, so You are in the extraction business!? - I was wondering where that comment about me trying to get into the "vac manufacturing business" was coming from [laughing]So how many do they sell? And could you expand on the "miniscule difference"? Are you referring to the efficiency of the filters here?

"I'd also be interested in the answers to the questions about the filters themselves, as I couldn't find certain deatils about them online - mainly what they're made from.
[/quote]

Why is that important, from the viewpoint of a user? Seems like a bit of a trade secret to me. I don't know if you've encountered this before, but companies tend not to share all these answers you seek with the public. I am not surprised no Festool representative weighs in on this matter."

Err, it's important because it informs the user of the efficiency of the filter. Where does it say this is a trade secret? Metabo and Mafell both say what their filters are made from, presumably not a trade secret for them. Does Festool have some super secret materials they make their filters with and this is something they simply couldn't share with the people who buy and use their extractors? Please share if you have any insight based on fact, rather than supposition.

Can we just agree that in an area which is important for the health of people who use dust extraction either for their work or as a DIYer/Hobbyist, it would be a good idea to have some clarity regarding the efficiency of the tools being used and yes! to ask questions of the manufacturers about their products? 

 

[Simon O]

"I think it is good questions and I tried to dig into this myself a while a go.http://festoolownersgroup.com/festo...midi-dust-classification/msg386265/#msg386265

The filtration of the HEPA-filters seem to be better in terms of particle size. The European MIDI is equipped with 1 micron filters while HEPA will filter down to 0.3 micron. Even though there are a lot less particles below 1micron, it still seem to be present for hardwoods (check for instance "A Study on Dust Emission, Particle Size Distributionand Formaldehyde Concentration During Machiningof Medium Density Fibreboard" on google).

I am still curious to why the HEPA-option is not available for the MIDI in EU and why the US regulatory is so much stricter on particle size filtration. Why would the EU care less about health and safety? (or is it really a problem in practice?)"

Thanks for commenting Magpal, yours was one of the many posts I read trying to get some clarity in this area.

 

[Simon O]

It'd be great if someone from Festool could give some definitive answers here, obviously not if there are trade secrets involved ;D - is there such a thing as a Festool dust extraction expert out there? - perhaps [member=41214]Phil Beckley[/member]  could help in this regard, or knows someone who can?

 

[AlexThePalex]

Particularly here, where there is the opportunity for an informed dialogue. I'm not sure some of your comments re my queries are  helping in that department.

What dialogue? You started by sending me a personal message with questions to join in on this old discussion and ressurect it. I am the one giving you the most elaborate answers here.

More so, I answer you within 2 hours, you bother to come back in 6 DAYS.

That's not how I see a dialogue, so there is no dialogue, and I'd like to mention you have a very odd way of picking people's brains.

Good luck, I'm out.

 

[Phil Beckley]

It'd be great if someone from Festool could give some definitive answers here, obviously not if there are trade secrets involved ;D - is there such a thing as a Festool dust extraction expert out there? - perhaps [member=41214]Phil Beckley[/member]  could help in this regard, or knows someone who can?

Hi
First off it is a complex area and each country/continent will work differently - so this will be UK applicable.
The basic 'rules' can be found herehttp://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/cis69.pdf
L,M,H each class for a different material and there is no list of each material for each class - the list would be huge. Each class has a generic description and that is applied individually using certain amount of common sense.
All guidance for the UK is via the Health and Safety Executive and all dust control will come under COSHHhttp://www.hse.gov.uk/coshh/index.htm

  So to get back to the title - no not available here for Mini/Midi. HEPA was brought in to meet the requirements of the US market and certain changes I believe were made so that a filter with a certificate was available (can someone from the US please correct if I am wrong)
  The L and M 26 as an example, share the same filter - the difference is on the airflow monitor and the audible alarm to notify of a full bag of blockage in the hose. For UK site use the M is now required more and more. In effect the L is filtering as an M but HSE ask that for site use it has the two key features as mentioned.
  No to test reports - the legislation guidance is clear from the EU and from the HSE in the UK that is what we have to work with along with other manufacturers - but we are the best  [wink]
  As for the materials the filters are made from i have no idea other than basically a type 'paper' for standard L and M and for the AC due to the high 'kick' of air rushing through the filter I believe it has a polyester weave along with the paper.
Hope this helps...if you need more post here and will get back to you
rg
Phil
 

 

[Simon O]

Particularly here, where there is the opportunity for an informed dialogue. I'm not sure some of your comments re my queries are  helping in that department.

What dialogue? You started by sending me a personal message with questions to join in on this old discussion and ressurect it. I am the one giving you the most elaborate answers here.

More so, I answer you within 2 hours, you bother to come back in 6 DAYS.

That's not how I see a dialogue, so there is no dialogue, and I'd like to mention you have a very odd way of picking people's brains.

Good luck, I'm out.

Thanks Alex, apologies for keeping you waiting six whole days, but as my post clearly shows - I had nothing of any substance to come back to, your contribution was to belittle me and suggest that asking questions was somehow unnecessary - not only that, but you misrepresented what I said and got your facts wrong. So not much of a contribution to a dialogue.

Thanks for replying Phil. However I'm still none the wiser re the difference between American HEPA certified Midi, Mini and Sys extractors and European Midi, Mini and Sys extractors - the European models are OR are  not HEPA certified; if they are not, what are the design differences - better seals/gaskets ? If they are, why aren't HEPA filters available for them in Europe? HEPA filters do provide better filtration, no?
On the question of L and M class extractors - the addition of an airflow monitor and an audible alarm in the M class improves the filtration efficiency, because if suction drops in L class the user may be unaware and the extractor starts to exhaust dust/becomes in some other way inefficient? Could you explain how that works in terms of efficiency?
Would it be true to say that the most important factor in determining an extractors efficiency, is what is exhausted from the extractor? And that what the filter bag and the filter doesn't catch, gets exhausted?
As far as I'm aware M class extractors are obligatory on all building sites in the UK now, not sure about Europe?
Is it possible to find out what the different Festool filters are made of and how efficiently they filter?

 

[semenza]

If the HEPA filters are not available in Europe how could the CT Mini/ Midi in Europe be HEPA CERTIFIED? Seems like that is a, no.  Just because they are not HEPA certified in Europe doesn't mean there are necessarily design differences.

They are not HEPA certified in Europe because there are no HEPA filters being sold in Europe AND the HEPA certification is a USA thing not a Europe thing. So even if there were HEPA filters available for the Mini / Midi in Europe it would probably be some class designation that fits the European filtration standards. But apparently that is not the case for the Mini / Midi in Europe.

If there are differences in the units between the USA models and the Euro models I have no idea. Maybe someone that does know can say?  BUT even if you get a HEPA  filter and put it in a Euro Mini/ Midi, and if the unit is the same as the USA model ...... it still won't have USA certification or a Euro class designation.

Is HEPA better? Yes, at least in my opinion. Why is it not available in Europe for the Mini/ Midi? I have no idea.  I doubt that Festool will provide a definitive answer to that question beyond ..... that it has something to do with marketing or something to that effect.

From what I can gather the audible alarm  doesn't seem to have anything to do with efficiency. It has to do with letting the operator know that the unit is full / blocked and may be allowing dust to escape (as in not get collected) because the suction level has dropped below what is needed to collect it from the source or that it can't get into the bag.

Seth

 

[Phil Beckley]

Thanks for replying Phil. However I'm still none the wiser re the difference between American HEPA certified Midi, Mini and Sys extractors and European Midi, Mini and Sys extractors - the European models are OR are  not HEPA certified; if they are not, what are the design differences - better seals/gaskets ? If they are, why aren't HEPA filters available for them in Europe? HEPA filters do provide better filtration, no?
On the question of L and M class extractors - the addition of an airflow monitor and an audible alarm in the M class improves the filtration efficiency, because if suction drops in L class the user may be unaware and the extractor starts to exhaust dust/becomes in some other way inefficient? Could you explain how that works in terms of efficiency?
Would it be true to say that the most important factor in determining an extractors efficiency, is what is exhausted from the extractor? And that what the filter bag and the filter doesn't catch, gets exhausted?
As far as I'm aware M class extractors are obligatory on all building sites in the UK now, not sure about Europe?
Is it possible to find out what the different Festool filters are made of and how efficiently they filter?
[/quote]

Yes the important part is what comes out the back of the extractor. First filter is the 'bag' the second is the main rectangular filter. I t would be unlikely to get the specific make up of the filters and I am not sure how this will help.
The difference between the two continents is basically the filter for the US is certified for HEPA standards in the UK it is correct for L class applications. Internally the difference will be the motor due to different voltage. The seals and gaskets will be the same.
rg
Phil