Can a Festool Midi or Mini vacuum accept Festool HEPA filters?

[vesbon]

I was thumbing through a Festool catalog last night and saw HEPA filters for the Mini and Midi vacuums.  This caught my eye because I thought only the CT-22 and 33 had HEPA filters.  I can?t remember the page, but it was the same page with the disposable bags for their vacuums.   

I?m trying to decide between a Midi and a CT-22.  I actually want the Midi (it?s less money and plenty for my needs), but the lack of HEPA originally steered me to the CT-22. 

Did I mis-read the catalog page when it said a HEPA filter for a Midi and Mini (it was late last night)?  Or, another way to ask the question: Do I have to step up to a CT-22 if I definitely want HEPA? 

I?m just a hobby woodworking, so the smaller size and CFM of the Midi is fine for me (although I do plan to get the TS 75, which I still think the Midi can handle). 

Thanks,
Greg

 

[tbellemare]

Greg:

The HEPA filters for the MIDI and MINI are expected some time soon. But I was told this Summer it would be this Fall.

Tom

 

[sw1211]

If you go down to page 16 the features of the various vacs are in one chart.

 

[Bob Marino]

  Greg,

As Tom said, they were expected this Fall, but I CAN'T IMAGINE (well maybe I can ) that it will delayed too much longer; so if the MINI/MIDI is want you are set on; I would go for it.

Bob

 

[Forrest Anderson]

I was thumbing through a Festool catalog last night and saw HEPA filters for the Mini and Midi vacuums.  This caught my eye because I thought only the CT-22 and 33 had HEPA filters.  I can?t remember the page, but it was the same page with the disposable bags for their vacuums...

Did I mis-read the catalog page when it said a HEPA filter for a Midi and Mini (it was late last night)?  Or, another way to ask the question: Do I have to step up to a CT-22 if I definitely want HEPA? 

The page you may have seen is Page 25 from the Festool USA catalogue (warning - large file!):

[attachimg=1]

This shows that Order No 496752 are HEPA filter elements for the CT MINI and MIDI.

The item is listed at $33 and the description says "2 pieces". Since these two extractors only take 1 element rather than the 2 found in the CT22 and CT33, I have to wonder if this is a mistake, or whether 2 really are included - one for use in the extractor and one as a spare.

As regards availability, Highland Woodworking shows the item listed on their website, (and they imply that you just get 1 filter in the pack for your $33), but we all know that some companies (and not just tool companies) will advertise items that they don't actually have in stock!

Shane - do you have comments about the availability of these filters or whether the $33 package contains one or two filters?

Forrest

 

[AlexThePalex]

What exactly is so bad about the original filters?

 

[Administrator_JSVN]

I can not provide a definitive schedule for when they will be available.  I do know that we are still getting them but details have been sketchy from Germany on an exact time frame.  Sorry I don't have more information.  But they are coming.

 

[vesbon]

Forrest Anderson: Yes, that is exactly the page I saw.    From what everyone has said, it looks like one can get a HEPA for the mini and Midi... someday. 

The HEPA is just a better filter, so I'd like to use it (protecting my lungs and fingers are a top priority). 

One more question: Since I'm getting the TS 75, do I need the extra CFM the CT 22 has over the Midi (133 vs. 99)?  I'm leaning towards the CT-22 since it's really not that much more money (given that I plan to have these tools for life). 

Thanks,
Greg

 

[score0matic]

Just courious?
the hepa is really only needed if you are working with lead, asbestos and other hazardous mat.  the regular filter will pick up any dust that power tools make safely..... So says the NEW LEAD ABATEMENT SUPERVISOR [big grin]  passed my license exam with a 94%  (70% needed to pass, and a well written one it was.......everyone else failed in my class,  makes me feel like a Tool SNOB with a new OF 2200 and Accy kit).
Craig

 

[Peterm]

FWIW I have a Midi and a CTL22. Yes, the CTL22 shifts more air, but in everyday use I find little difference between them. The Midi is significantly smaller so I find it much easier to move around a jobsite, though if you're principally workshop-based this probably won't be a big consideration for you. If you need a new vac now and HEPA filters are a big consideration for you then get the CTL22/26, otherwise the Midi/Mini work just fine for a lot of people, myself included.

HTH, Pete

 

[AlexThePalex]

Craig, congrats on passing your exam. I guess you can do more dirty jobs now  [big grin]

The HEPA is just a better filter, so I'd like to use it (protecting my lungs and fingers are a top priority).  

Of course it's very good to be careful about your lungs but I doubt your concern is really justified. The HEPA filters won't deliver much extra over the protection the standard filters already give you. Your lungs are already perfectly protected with the standard filters.

Furthermore, you don't get the HEPA protection by merely putting in some HEPA rated filters. Your ENTIRE VACUUM needs to be rated HEPA for the standard to be effective. This means that the emission standard of filtering 99.97% of all particles > 0.3 micrometer accounts for the entire vac and not just for the filters. And the Festool CT Mini and CT 22 DO NOT comply to the HEPA standard. This means it is possible for dust particles to leave the vac through other openings in the system. If you put the denser HEPA filters in, there's a chance that because of the more obstructed airflow the particles will find other ways out of the vac, and thereby circumventing the filters.

Another thing you should take into account is that not all dust created by the machine is sucked into the vac. That's impossible, even with machines that have such good suction as Festools. Now, the amount of dust that the vac won't suck up, is a LOT MORE than the dust that is expelled by the vac. And it's much closer to you because people work with the tools in front of their nose and the vac is a bit farther away. This leftover dust from the source diminishes the added value of the HEPA filters over the standard L class filters back to zero. What's the point of having HEPA filters that suck up another 1% over the standard filters while the amount of dust you breathe in right at the tool is a 100 or a 1000 times bigger?   

Now I'm not being against HEPA filters here, all I want to say is that if you have to make a decision about choosing between the Mini and the 22, there are more important factors to consider than the filters. Because in my opinion the filters add close to nothing and are more of a sales gimmick. The more important factors to consider when choosing between the Mini and the 22 are price, mobility and suction.  The suction is a bit less on the Mini. But pricing and mobility are much better. So my advice, is, if you think the Mini is already perfectly suitable for your needs, there is no need to look at the 22 just because of the HEPA filter.

 

[Brice Burrell]

Alex, I've said the same thing before, and it was meet with a surprising amount of resistance here.

 

[score0matic]

Alex
you have written and OUTSTANDING assessment of reality.

I chose Wap/ Attix 8, Which is the same as the Festool Special use 45  (NAINA)  for my HEPA . 

Here is what Nilfisk (the manufacturer) has to say about filters

HEPA Filters are more efficient than the Standard Filters, and thus filter all the way down to 0.3 microns.  They are certified to OSHA, DoD, and EPA standards.  The filters are typically used with asbestos remediation or lead based paint, and other dusts that are very fine and deemed hazardous to health.  Wap vacuums that were originally not purchased with HEPA filters can often be converted over to HEPA by getting the HEPA filter listed next to your vacuum below. We generally do not recommend you invest in a HEPA filter unless you need it for health or safety purposes, hospital use, or ?Clean Rooms? since the Standard 1.0 micron non-HEPA filters are excellent at capturing dust.

Craig 

PS  thanks but now I can STUPERVIZE Intentional m/s [blink] Dirty jobs

 

[vesbon]

Yeah, I suspected HEPA was overkill and a bit of a marketing gimmick.  The 1 micron for the standard filter seems good enough.  Also, excellent point about how the tools don't capture 100% of the dust at the source. 

I'm REALLY tight on space, so a mini actually might work best for me.  Will the CFM be enough for the TS 75 (in other words, does the TS 75 have higher dust extraction needs)?  I felt the CT22 at a store a while back and it was very powerful.  If I did get the mini, I hope I won't later regret the CFM (power) isn't strong enough.  Never can have too much power...

Thanks,
Greg

 

[Brice Burrell]

.......I'm REALLY tight on space, so a mini actually might work best for me.  Will the CFM be enough for the TS 75 (in other words, does the TS 75 have higher dust extraction needs)?  I felt the CT22 at a store a while back and it was very powerful.  If I did get the mini, I hope I won't later regret the CFM (power) isn't strong enough.  Never can have too much power...

Thanks,
Greg

   

The benefit to the mini or midi to the smaller size and lighter weight for transport. If you don't plan to move your vac often the CT22 or 33 are a better choice. The added capacity and suction are worth the relativity modest increase in footprint over the mini/midi.

That said the mini/midi work fine with all of the Festool tools. Although the smaller capacity isn't particularly well suited for tools that produce a large volume of dust/chips like routers and planers because the filter bags will fill quickly.

 

[danrush]

For what it's worth:

I use both the ct22 and mini on the job and in the shop daily.  Both handle the dust collection needs for the ts55/75 (yes both), misc sanders, and Kapex equally (there may be a bit less dust collection with the mini on the Kapex, but I would defy anyone to be able to accurately measure it).

BUT...  I am eagerly awaiting the HEPA filters for my home-based mini. While the very valid posts by Alex and Craig apply to job or shop sites, they do not necessarily consider my dog hair ( thus allergen) infested wood floors. I purchased one mini specifically for home use, expecting hepa filters soon, based on the 2009 catalog. 

The mini (with accessaries and HEPA) will make a great little home vac, and allow me to just stock 22 and mini bags for all my uses, at home and work.

Dan

 

[Brice Burrell]

Dan, this is a good point but I'm not sure pet dander is sub-micron sized. It could be, I don't know.

 

[Bob Marino]

Craig, congrats on passing your exam. I guess you can do more dirty jobs now  [big grin]

The HEPA is just a better filter, so I'd like to use it (protecting my lungs and fingers are a top priority).  

Of course it's very good to be careful about your lungs but I doubt your concern is really justified. The HEPA filters won't deliver much extra over the protection the standard filters already give you. Your lungs are already perfectly protected with the standard filters.

Furthermore, you don't get the HEPA protection by merely putting in some HEPA rated filters. Your ENTIRE VACUUM needs to be rated HEPA for the standard to be effective. This means that the emission standard of filtering 99.97% of all particles > 0.3 micrometer accounts for the entire vac and not just for the filters. And the Festool CT Mini and CT 22 DO NOT comply to the HEPA standard. This means it is possible for dust particles to leave the vac through other openings in the system. If you put the denser HEPA filters in, there's a chance that because of the more obstructed airflow the particles will find other ways out of the vac, and thereby circumventing the filters.

Another thing you should take into account is that not all dust created by the machine is sucked into the vac. That's impossible, even with machines that have such good suction as Festools. Now, the amount of dust that the vac won't suck up, is a LOT MORE than the dust that is expelled by the vac. And it's much closer to you because people work with the tools in front of their nose and the vac is a bit farther away. This leftover dust from the source diminishes the added value of the HEPA filters over the standard L class filters back to zero. What's the point of having HEPA filters that suck up another 1% over the standard filters while the amount of dust you breathe in right at the tool is a 100 or a 1000 times bigger?   

Now I'm not being against HEPA filters here, all I want to say is that if you have to make a decision about choosing between the Mini and the 22, there are more important factors to consider than the filters. Because in my opinion the filters add close to nothing and are more of a sales gimmick. The more important factors to consider when choosing between the Mini and the 22 are price, mobility and suction.  The suction is a bit less on the Mini. But pricing and mobility are much better. So my advice, is, if you think the Mini is already perfectly suitable for your needs, there is no need to look at the 22 just because of the HEPA filter.

Alex,

Excellent points and basically agree with all of what you said. HEPA filtration is often misunderstood (as are the health hazards of woodworking dust and allergens) by most people. In another life, as a Respiratory Therapist for over 30 years, that's something near and dear to my heart (not my lungs though ). I sometimes cringe when I hear of people using HEPA's on the cheapest, lowest quality vacs and the dust clouds just shooting out from every nook and cranny, emitting the finest (and generally the most dangerous) stuff all around (actually sometimes the finest and most hazardous dust is the dust too small to see, but that's a whole other issue).
Festool's vacs are a different animal though - with the paper filter bag, 1 micron or HEPA filters (with a relatively large surface area) and a heavy rubber seal/gasket around the vac's perimeter.  And Festool has never been a company to jump on any bandwagon without doing a whole lot of research and due diligence - they were probably the last company offering Lithium Ion batteries.  Regaring HEPA'S vs standard filters, perhaps Festool is mistaken too? I don't know. What I would find highly informative though, is a comparison of the CT 22/33 and the CT MINI/MIDI using both standard and HEPA filters, sanding wood and a finer material (drywall spackle?) keeping the sander totally on the surface, checking for both the amount and particle size of dust emitted - at  full, medium and low suction. At least in that one scenerio, where the sander doesn't leave the surface, we can see what, if any, benefit there is from using the HEPA's.  Perhaps we will find that they do offer a minor amount of benefit, perhaps not.
You could be totally correct  regarding the finer HEPA'a actually  increasing the emitted dust as compared to the 1 micron filters. And, of course you are totally correct in pointing out that HEPA filters do not equal HEPA filtration. People often get a false sense of security using them.
Regarding the OP's concern about filtration, I would be willing to bet, though I ain't betting much, that there will be less "dust in the air" in a typical shop setting/real world enviorment using the 22/33 as compared to the MINI/MIDI due to the increased suction of the former, HEPA and 1 micron filters aside.

  Bob

 

[score0matic]

Regarding the OP's concern about filtration, I would be willing to bet, though I ain't betting much, that there will be less "dust in the air" in a typical shop setting/real world enviorment using the 22/33 as compared to the MINI/MIDI due to the increased suction of the former, HEPA and 1 micron filters aside.

  Bob

Bob
What is realy cool about your wager is this is actually fairly easy to test [blink]  (with about $700 worth of montitoring equipmnet that i will be buying in the next few months) I learned all about OSHA air testing protocals for derermining  respotory hasards and the proper level PPE (read  NIOSH rated resporators)  I am guessing that it it the tool selection and process rather than the vac that will show the issues.  lets say an ets 150 /3 with 400 brillant on oak for 45 min.  weigh the test block before  and then after  the ct test  with a breather and test cassette ( this is an air pump that sucks at a given rate that you wear.  with a tube and test Cassette (filter) that you clip to your  collar "breathing space" .  run it again with the mini  weighing the block and making sure the sander is removing a statistically similar amount in the same time.  send both test cassettes to a lab and see if there is a difference in the oak particle count.

Craig

 

[Administrator_JSVN]

Dan, this is a good point but I'm not sure pet dander is sub-micron sized. It could be, I don't know.

According to my searches, pet dander is about 2.5 microns.

I thought the website below was an interesting illustration.  We talk about microns all the time when it comes to our HEPA filtration.  This is a cool visual.  Use the silder bar under the image to zoom in and out.

http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/content/begin/cells/scale/

Lysosome is where it gets down to one micron in size.  Our HEPA filtration is 99.97% at .3 microns.