Cedar Carriage Doors

[Vindingo]

I am working on two projects at the moment, one of them involves: wood, stone, glass, laser cut steel and some hand forged iron.  This is not that.  I was hoping to bang out these doors, and finish up the "cool" project, but the doors are turning out to be much more work than expected.  Not necessarily in a bad way, it just reconfirms the fact that I am absolutely horrible at estimating time.  

2 pairs of doors

 

Clear vertical grain western red cedar.  This wood is pretty, machines very nicely, and it is light weight.  I have to be a bit more careful in order to not dent the wood, but I think the relative lightness of the wood will be nice on a 2"x4'x7' door.  It was fairly easy choosing nice boards, as VG cedar tends to be pretty flat and straight.  For the rails and stiles, I went with 2 pieces of S4S 5/4x6 (5/4x8 for bottom rail) laminated to give me an overall of 2".  2" S4S solid material would have cost almost twice as much, and it was special order.    

 
     
Laminating the boards.  4' for the rails, 8' for the stiles

The night before I started gluing up the boards, I realized that a few more Bowclamps would be helpful.  I email Craig F. that evening, he got back to me first thing the following morning, and I swung by his place to snag a few more.  This is the second time I have been to his shop (first time about 2 years ago).  He is a super nice guy with a pretty nifty product.  
 
I had a buddy help me with the glue up.  The boards were wiped down with acetone, then glued with TB III.  I used a roller to give the boards a generous and even coat.  I suspect that he missed wiping down one set of boards with acetone because the glue did not bond at all.     The second I took the clamps off the stack, these two boards popped apart.  They are the only ones didn't bond.  It was very strange, but now has me second guessing the use of TBIII.  I sanded down to bare wood, wiped down with acetone, then reglued.  No problems yet... (knock on cedar)    

 

Straight line rip with the guide rail, then sized with parallel guides.  This is one instance where I wish I had a table saw.  It would have cut my time in half at this point.  I picked up a panter blade, which ripped through the cedar like butter, but the TS55 doesn't cut 2".  It left a freakin' tiny bit of wood on EVERY. SINGLE. CUT.   I cleaned up the edges with another new toy.

Some router fun

The inset panel will be flat 1x material

One area I have been back and forth is the mortise and tenon joint for the rails and stiles.  I initially planned on using a wedged through tenon.  I completed a sample joint, and it was a lot of work.  6 per door, 4 doors...

How deep would an appropriate tenon need to be if it didn't go all the way through?  The stiles are 5" wide, would a 3" deep x 4" high x 5/8" thick tenon be reasonably strong?  Do I suck it up and make the through tenon?  Will the exposed end grain be a problem?    

anyone with good carriage door hardware sources?

Suggestions welcome

-Vinny

 

[tbellemare]

Vinny:

I fully expect that my first major project with the Domino XL will be a set of double garage doors. I'm really glad you started this thread.

I will totally be winging it other than what I can learn on line and from my associates.

Tom

 

[jacko9]

Vinny and Tom,

I started a discussion about large mortise and tenon joints on the "Old Woodworking Machines" web site @ http://owwm.org/index.php

One suggestion was to cut a double tenon to minimize wood movement across a wide tenon.

I used this approach in making mahogany doors with a 8" bottom rail and 6" top rail.  I made a half dozen of these doors and there still holding together.

Jack

 

[tbellemare]

Thanks, Jack.

I'm a fan of multiple Domino joints for strength and reliability. I think they're better than one big m&t but can't scientifically prove it - Yet...

With the greater depth possibilities of the XL (or Domisaurus, or whatever), I think some of my upcoming projects will be much more enjoyable and also stronger.

I have doors to rebuild, French doors with pretty heavy glass sandwiches and double-wide garage doors. I'm trying to soak up all the knowledge I can from Forum participants.

Tom

 

[Rob-GB]

Hi Vinny, with regard to tenons you may like to view an old thread of mine HERE
The end grain from the through tenons pose no more of an issue than the end grain on the stiles, the only thing that springs to mind is that some people think they have swollen and protruding from the stile when in fact it is the stile that has shrunk.
If you go the stopped mortice route I would draw bore and peg the joints rather than try fox wedging a) it's quicker b) less can go wrong [eek]

Rob.

 

[woodguy7]

Vinyl,

Personally for that size of a door I would stick with your original plan of doing through wedged mortise & tennon.  Hard to tell rom your test piece but I always chisel the wedge shape from each side of the mortise then cut my slot in the tennon about 12mm from the edge.  That way when you tap the wedge in it turns the whole tennon into a big dovetail joint also.  My wedges would normally be 50mm long, 15mm thick (or whatever the width of the mortise is) & taper from 10mm to 0mm.

I would go with your gut & your gut first thought of through m&t.

Woodguy.

 

[duburban]

the fein router base looks very similar to the festool. it looks like a nice piece of equipment, where did you find that tool?

 

[Vindingo]

This project definitely had me thinking about the Dom XL, more in terms of renting one instead of owning one.  I don't think I have ever heard of anyone doing that though. 

Jack - do you have a better link to the topic?  I couldn't find it on that site. 

Rob - Thank you.  I have skimmed the PDF, and will now sit down and read it again before cutting more wood.

If you go the stopped mortice route I would draw bore and peg the joints rather than try fox wedging a) it's quicker b) less can go wrong [eek]

I don't think I would like the look of pins for these doors... its the "less can go wrong" that is getting me. 

I think I will go with the trough tenon.  Is the twin tenon for the bottom and lock rail a necessity? 

Woodguy, the mortise is only minimally wedged maybe a little shy of 1/8" bigger  (the size of the two wedges combined) than the tenon.  I didn't want to go crazy with the wedges.  It looks like I am going to have to play around some more with that before I start cutting into the stiles. 

 

 

[Vindingo]

the fein router base looks very similar to the festool. it looks like a nice piece of equipment, where did you find that tool?

I got it about 3 years ago, new off Ebay. It was old then, and I don't think Fein makes routers anymore.  It is pretty smooth, plunges nicer than my OF1010 and has tons of power.  The dust collection was made of flimsy plastic and broke, and I haven't been able to source a new one.  Other than that, I have been happy with it.   

One edge guide is from the Fein, and the other is from my OF1010.  I got 24" of  5/16" stainless rod off of Amazon for about $7 and joined the two together to make this sled set up. 

 

[Rob-GB]

This project definitely had me thinking about the Dom XL, more in terms of renting one instead of owning one.  I don't think I have ever heard of anyone doing that though. 

Jack - do you have a better link to the topic?  I couldn't find it on that site. 

Rob - Thank you.  I have skimmed the PDF, and will now sit down and read it again before cutting more wood.

If you go the stopped mortice route I would draw bore and peg the joints rather than try fox wedging a) it's quicker b) less can go wrong [eek]

I don't think I would like the look of pins for these doors... its the "less can go wrong" that is getting me.   
I think I will go with the trough tenon.  Is the twin tenon for the bottom and lock rail a necessity? 

Woodguy, the mortise is only minimally wedged maybe a little shy of 1/8" bigger  (the size of the two wedges combined) than the tenon.  I didn't want to go crazy with the wedges.  It looks like I am going to have to play around some more with that before I start cutting into the stiles. 

 

Fox wedging can be a real pain to get right and you really only have one chance at it; as when you assemble the joint it is very hard to get it apart again (if it does not firm up properly or does not close the joint) without damaging the stile.
Pegs or pins can be a design feature, just look at some Greene & Greene or some Morris chairs or  that Scottish chappie raincoat Macintosh's work ;D
The bottom and lock rail tenons don't "have" to be twin tenons, depending on the width of the rails, but the wider the tenon the longer the mortice and the greater the impact will be if rails decide to cup( the more taken out of the stile material has a similar effect): but, if the rails are small enough you could go with slightly larger haunches so they are more like frieze rail tenons allowing the haunches to work in maintaining flatness of the joint/resisting twist.
I think I mentioned in the pdf that I use the same rule for wedge angles as for dovetails, as Alan (woodguy) said by wedging the mortise and tenon joint (using glue) you effectively make it a dovetailed joint that is extremely strong and secure(hence my rule...why change a tried and tested system?  )

I am interested, by the way, why it required that the Cedar needs a mop down with acetone prior to glueing? It is not a timber I use often, but when I have, it recieved pva and p.u. without a problem......but I am a big fan of using Titebond adhesives as they have never let me down....yet! though I don't recall using any TB product on those projects.

ATB Rob.

 

[Vindingo]

I think I am going to reevaluate the use of drawbore pins.  I don't love the style, but I think they will be much easier.  Maybe I will flip a coin.

Two pins with the strap hinges running between them might look nice. 

I am going to run to the store to see what my dowel material options are.  I have a feeling that cedar dowels may be hard to find. 

From what I have read, the oils in WR cedar (the one that make it rot and insect resistant) don't get along with PVA glue.  I figured a wipe down with acetone couldn't hurt.  Cheap insurance I guess.  As with most of the things I have read on the web, this is only based on anecdotal evidence.  As far as why that one set of boards didn't take, it was either too much acetone, or none.  50-50 shot at that one.   

 

[rdesigns]

I would hesitate to use thru M&T on exterior doors due to exposed end grain being more prone to absorb moisture. The wetting/drying cycles would compress the fibers of the tenon over time and result in loosening. Better to keep the tenons fully housed in their mortises.

FWIW, I have had equally good success with either loose tenons that are glued into mating mortises on both rails and stiles, or tenons formed on the rail ends. Sometimes loose tenons are quicker and easier to make, and they are every bit as strong as the other kind. In fact, you can use a  hardwood like oak for the loose tenons, which would be even stronger than a cedar tenon.

 

[waho6o9]

http://www.realcarriagedoors.com/hardware-cat.php?page=sliding-hw

Here's one source of hardware for you. I haven't used them though they seem to have quite a selection.
HTH        [big grin]

 

[ictusbrucks]

Very cool project. I am a bit surprised about that first glue joint failure.... I have never cleaned wood with anything but a dry rag before gluing using titebond... makes me wonder if I should have been cleaning with acetone too.... have you considered the opposite could have occured, as in way too much acetone was in there and somehow didn't fully dry away?

Would you mind explaining what "bowl clamps" are? I have tried several google and FOG searched but cannot find them. I have seen something that looks like those weird T groove pieces of wood in other threads before. Looks like some kind of bowed board for clamping?

 

[Timtool]

It's amazing to see what some people can do with just powertools, i have made a few cedar gates now with the dom XL,
I am more and more moving over to custom width tenons because 1 or 2 big tenons goes faster during assembly than 4 or more regular dominos, i had some problems with some complex gates where i had to glue and assemble something like 20 tenons  before the glue settled and one time i almost didn't succeed.
Anyway the last cedar gate i made was so crazy that i had to take pics during construction, it's over 4 meters long (14 feet!)

[attachimg=#]

Vinny, Have you thought of adding diagonal braces to keep the doors square? I almost don't dare making anything without them. And on cedar i always use polyurethane glue because it's usually quite wet inside and any other glue will not dry on it.

 

[festooldude]

thats lookin nice timothy!! got some more pictures? im up for a similar project in the next few weeks.. so really
wanna see some more ..    Gotta make a garden gate & matching fences left and right for a walktrough in a
garden.. making it outta bankirai..  using the Domino XL

 

[festooldude]

Vinny.. I love the doors, really good looking..  the thing i would do tho: i would make a beveled edge of like 3 degrees on the top edge of all the vertical pieces..
But that's just because i live in a very wet country .. When the edge is flat, water is going to creep inside the door/panel/tenon..

Gr Rick

 

[tiralie]

Doors look great.

Not necessarily in a bad way, it just reconfirms the fact that I am absolutely horrible at estimating time. 

Join the club, or should I say welcome to the club. When ever the topic of pricing comes up, I tell myself to remain calm. Usually works, but sometimes my temper gets the best of me I say something stupid.

I suspect that he missed wiping down one set of boards with acetone because the glue did not bond at all.     The second I took the clamps off the stack, these two boards popped apart.  They are the only ones didn't bond.  It was very strange, but now has me second guessing the use of TBIII. 

I am surprised that the boards didn't glue up properly. I have used TBIII on Red Cedar and had no problem with it. All I did was wipe off the dust and pour the glue on. From the pattern left by the dried glue it looks like there was glue only on one side, but that's irrelevant at this point.
Nice looking drawing btw.
Thanks for posting.
Tim

 

[Vindingo]

http://www.realcarriagedoors.com/hardware-cat.php?page=sliding-hw

Here's one source of hardware for you. I haven't used them though they seem to have quite a selection.
HTH        [big grin]

That website has been my main source of inspiration.  Lots of good stuff, it doesn't seem like they will sell you their hardware without the door.  It's worth checking out if anyone is looking to build something similar.

Would you mind explaining what "bowl clamps" are? I have tried several google and FOG searched but cannot find them. I have seen something that looks like those weird T groove pieces of wood in other threads before. Looks like some kind of bowed board for clamping?

That was a typo on my part... Bow clamps, not bowl.  http://www.bowclamp.com/index.html  They are pretty much what you see, a bowed board for clamping.  The bow or arc is consistent though, and flattens out across the length of the piece.  Simple and effective, and they can replace some of the need for a ton of clamps. 

Anyway the last cedar gate i made was so crazy that i had to take pics during construction, it's over 4 meters long (14 feet!)

Vinny, Have you thought of adding diagonal braces to keep the doors square? I almost don't dare making anything without them. And on cedar i always use polyurethane glue because it's usually quite wet inside and any other glue will not dry on it.

I'd love to see more photos of that gate with the truss frame. 

I figured at a little less than 4', I can get away with no diagonal braces based on the photos I have seen. 

Rick - thanks for the tip. 

Doors look great.

I am surprised that the boards didn't glue up properly. I have used TBIII on Red Cedar and had no problem with it. All I did was wipe off the dust and pour the glue on. From the pattern left by the dried glue it looks like there was glue only on one side, but that's irrelevant at this point.
Nice looking drawing btw.
Thanks for posting.
Tim

Thanks Tim,  the glue was only on one side, but so were the others.  I may have been stingy with that one though.  I'm hoping it was a fluke. I went through and tried to pull all of the other boards apart, and so far they have been fine.  I will be more generous with the glue I think. 

the drawing is a simple one.  I used to be a CAD/modeling ninja, but have let those skills slide in favor of manual ones. 

 

 

[Vindingo]

no wood shop today, just a quick test to see how the pins would look.  These are 3/4" oak, but I found someone who could make me 3/4" cedar dowels.  I am not sure I am sold on the benefits vs time on of the pin offset. I'm thinking stopped mortise with a straight pin.