CMS modules

[jond]

All this recent CMS talk has me drooling.  I'm preparing to buy a permanent dedicated router table but I can get myself to make the investment in a non-festool setup.  Something nice & non-Festool could easily pusk 1k...

The current module on ebay in NA looks to be the old model, bummer...  Anyone in London wanna help me out and ship a CMS router plate, slide table, & base to the states?  Shoot me a PM...

 

[hrrb]

Ahh...clever Festool!

I didn't notice they had changed the new version so you can insert/remove the bushings from above. I have the old version, and in order to acchieve best possible dust colection I always use a bush as close to the diameter of the bit as possible. Then its not possible to change bit from above.

...but I love using my router in the CMS so I can only recommend to buy it (if possible...thinking of NAINA problem...sorry american fellows!)

Have a nice weekend!
Henrik

 

[mattfc]

All this recent CMS talk has me drooling.  I'm preparing to buy a permanent dedicated router table but I can get myself to make the investment in a non-festool setup.  Something nice & non-Festool could easily pusk 1k...

The current module on ebay in NA looks to be the old model, bummer...  Anyone in London wanna help me out and ship a CMS router plate, slide table, & base to the states?  Shoot me a PM...

I was thinking about this and the VL CMS stand that fixes onto the side of the MFT would probably be the best option.. I think in the VL box with chareful packing it would be possible to put together a kit comprising the router module, TS module and jigsaw insert. That would cost about £1170 plus would be worth thinking at a minimum about adding the rip fence.

I looked on an import site and it lists for example that the TS55 is import duty free as well as routers. I think shipping per unit would be about £200 based on a fed-ex quote for a box being 100cm x 100cm x 30 cm weight 50kg, price starts to go down with more units (e.g. for 3 packages.. it would be about £170). I am sure it could be done cheaper with a slower courier (e.g that is for a 3 day service)

 

[awdriven]

I'm glad people are allowed to talk openly here about their imports. I've been thinking hard about self-importing a CMS setup too - glad to see I am not the only one.

I've been biding my time getting some of the tools but I've already had to build jigs for a few projects that either I would not have needed or which could have been much simpler if I had a CMS setup. I will probably self-import sometime during 2012 if I can't buy one from Tool Nut or one of the other fine dealers here.

IMO, the CMS as a major piece of the 'better in a system' philosophy. It adds a whole extra dimension of usefulness to the tools I already own. I could also sure tempt me to do things like buy a Trion/Carvex that I don't own today because I could use it upside down in a CMS.  It's a sales multiplier that benefits sales/marketability of every tool for which there is a CMS module available. (and adds a feature to each of those tools that no competitor in the US has - the ability to use as a 'stationary' tool)

 

[Wim]

In my opinion the CMS system is so useful, it would be a good reason to start an Occupy Festool movement.  ;D

 

[CutsTwice]

Well I'm trying to order a couple of CMS inserts and accessories right now, and I can't seam to find anyone that has all the parts I want in one place (that will ship to NA). There must be some trick to doing this that I haven't figured out yet. Should I keep randomly emailing anyone that sells Festool in the UK or does someone have a secret that they are willing to share with me?

 

[mattfc]

I'm glad people are allowed to talk openly here about their imports. I've been thinking hard about self-importing a CMS setup too - glad to see I am not the only one.

I've been biding my time getting some of the tools but I've already had to build jigs for a few projects that either I would not have needed or which could have been much simpler if I had a CMS setup. I will probably self-import sometime during 2012 if I can't buy one from Tool Nut or one of the other fine dealers here.

IMO, the CMS as a major piece of the 'better in a system' philosophy. It adds a whole extra dimension of usefulness to the tools I already own. I could also sure tempt me to do things like buy a Trion/Carvex that I don't own today because I could use it upside down in a CMS.  It's a sales multiplier that benefits sales/marketability of every tool for which there is a CMS module available. (and adds a feature to each of those tools that no competitor in the US has - the ability to use as a 'stationary' tool)

I can't see the issue about talking about the imports, providing they have been conducted as an indiviual, and don't involve Festool dealers shipping out of their agreed territories.I would be surprised if Festool mind their products NAINA coming over to NA, just due to approvals they want to ensure they have no liability. From a Festool groups perspective is all sale, so could image they would be more than happy to pocket the money without the worry about liability

 

[mattfc]

p.s. maybe if people are interested in a full cms package (e.g. MFT CMS unit holder, Router table, Table saw insert, jigsaw insert, rip fence), PM me, and I look into facilitating the shipping whilst keeping everyone happy (e.g. buy from a dealer in uk and ship to the uk, then consolidate packaging etc) since I don't believe this to contravene any regulations etc.

As far as I can see, the CMS stuff is NAINA due to lack of UL certification but I can't find anything yet that stipulates that an electrical product has to have UL certification to comply with any import regulation in the US. Am interested in any opions here, as would like to help fellow FOG'ers, but must an will stay on the right side of the law, so need to check some things to see if I can make this a reality

"The UL Mark does not carry any legal weight beyond that of any other trademark. In this sense, it is different from the CE Marking or the FCC Part 15 requirements for electronic devices, which are required by law. In practice, however, it may be extremely difficult to sell certain types of products without a UL Mark. Large distributors may be unwilling to carry a product without UL certification, and the use of noncertified equipment may invalidate insurance coverage. It is common practice in many fields to specify UL Listed equipment or UL Recognized materials. Local jurisdictional authorities, such as building, electrical and fire inspectors, may be reluctant to accept a product for installation in a building unless it carries a recognized third-party compliance mark such as the UL Mark."

 

[awdriven]

Well I'm trying to order a couple of CMS inserts and accessories right now, and I can't seam to find anyone that has all the parts I want in one place (that will ship to NA). There must be some trick to doing this that I haven't figured out yet. Should I keep randomly emailing anyone that sells Festool in the UK or does someone have a secret that they are willing to share with me?

I believe contractually the dealers are not supposed to sell product to markets outside their own. ie: Sell over the phone or internet and ship to another country.

You'd need to find someone who could purchase for you and pick up in person or have the product shipped to them within the country. Then you'd need those folks to package and ship the goodies to you. I don't know if there is a way around the taxes when you go this route.

The other option is to travel abroad and do the purchasing yourself. I think you can recoup the taxes when you leave the country if you have the proper paperwork. A CMS may be your wife's favorite Festool purchase if it's accompanied by a trip to the UK!

 

[awdriven]

Matt - regarding UL certification. It is not required. As an example, I have been researching hot air plastic welders. A common pro tool in the US is the Leister Triac S.

Leister recently introduced the Triac BT.  It is a less expensive version of the Triac that has pretty much the same components, but is assembled in China (instead of Switzerland) and lacks UL certification. As you'd expect, it's less expensive.

I think Festool has made a policy decision to get its power tools certified by UL as they are introduced. I won't ding them about it, but can say it's not mandatory to have UL certification. (but perhaps Festool has a liability insurer who requires the tools to be UL certified as a condition of their writing the policy)

However - If I owned a woodworking business, I would not allow employees to use the CMS. Because it hasn't gone through all the legal hoops for sale in the US, you could be putting yourself at extra risk if your employee got hurt and it was determined that the upside-down jigsaw wasn't blessed by the USA powers-that-be.

Speaking of liability, there is talk about new/updated regulations for table saws in the US. I would say a TS saw in a CMS would definitely qualify as a table saw. Until that is settled, Festool may sideline the TS insert or the whole CMS system in the US.

 

[mattfc]

Yes.. thats my understanding also.. it would be considered good practice to ensure UL certification. That said, I understand your point re employers not wanting to take on the liability for staff to use a CMS in the US, that said in fairness I wouldn't consider it unsafe.. seems fine for europeans, and there are some differences (e.g. in the UK I don't think you can use dado cutters, and the saws comes with shorter arbours to facilitate this)

What I was looking at doing if there was enough interest was ording some CMS sets to be delivered to me in UK and then ship then on, not as a business venture but to help fellow FOG'er. I think you are right re if going down this route not being able to claim taxes back, but the exchanges rates are ok, and thought if someone really wants they CMS its a small price to pay.

I think from a Festool perspecticve I won't have done anything wrong, I will have bought the unit from a UK dealer, shipper to a UK customer in the UK. Can't see why they would care what I then do with it. I just want to make sure I am not liable once the unit is used in the US.. am pretty sure I could write up a waiver (it was sold on the bais as being a rare museum piece to the US.. not for use!)

 

[mouppe]

When all is said and done, the easiest and cheapest way is to hop on a plane with an empty suitcase. I was able to bring back a CMS router module this way, and if I hadn't been stuffed with presents for the kids I could have stuck the TS module in there too. No duty paid, no shipping charges, although I had to explain the workings of the micro-adjuster on the fence when going through security!

When you break the CMS down, the only large part is the plate, and table legs.

But it's going to be hard to find a dealer to send it overseas- it's not worth their while for all the trouble they could get into from Festool. A UK dealer told me that they value the relationship very highly.

Seems like the best bet is to go through the FOG. You won't get the 20% VAT back though. No idea how much shipping or duty would be.

 

[Ken Nagrod]

Richard,

You're an international tool smuggler.  Just think what would have happened had they shaken your pants or done the full body scan?  [big grin]

 

[mouppe]

Richard,

You're an international tool smuggler.  Just think what would have happened had they shaken your pants or done the full body scan?  [big grin]

It's ok, I wear my toolie to the left.

 

[richard.selwyn]

On the question of an outfit willing to ship to the us, try Toolsave.co.uk. They used to be very on the ball and although I used to pick up were regularly shipping stuff to Europe. If they're still the same, call them up and speak to Dave ( I am afraid I haven,t dealt with them for a while so I'm not sure) if they are stil other same)
Regards,
Richard

 

[Ken Nagrod]

Just a quick reminder.  Be careful about posting helpful overseas dealers as that would be a dealer violation and Festool could take appropriate action.  I'd suggest any details be handled completely off the FOG if you're crazy enough to want to pay for international shipping on this stuff.  Richard Leon and his trip to the U.K. is a better idea.  Make a vacation out of it.

 

[CutsTwice]

I just got back from visiting with my Dealer and here is an interesting bit of speculation. He said he was told that "a Festool router table will be available in North America early next year if all goes well. It will be a separate unit for the OF2200 and OF1400." and that as far as he understood it, "it will not be modular, I've never heard of a CMS table".

This is the same dealer that told me in no uncertain terms that, "There definitely is NOT a 1/4 collet available for an OF2200", so I'm not sure just how much of my brain-space I'm willing to devote to this fellow. We all know how seriously we can take the "Festool School" scuttlebutt, but the rumor is interesting to me because I do not want to buy the CMS table, just the inserts. If it turns out to be true that the new mystery router table isn't modular and there will be no hope of putting a TS75 into one...well that's all the more reason for me to just order what I want from Europe now. I'm also rumored to be obsessive and impatient.  [smile]

I've heard a few other rumors about all this, so who knows.

 

[VictorL]

I just got back from visiting with my Dealer and here is an interesting bit of speculation. He said he was told that "a Festool router table will be available in North America early next year if all goes well. It will be a separate unit for the OF2200 and OF1400." and that as far as he understood it, "it will not be modular, I've never heard of a CMS table".

This is the same dealer that told me in no uncertain terms that, "There definitely is NOT a 1/4 collet available for an OF2200", so I'm not sure just how much of my brain-space I'm willing to devote to this fellow. We all know how seriously we can take the "Festool School" scuttlebutt, but the rumor is interesting to me because I do not want to buy the CMS table, just the inserts. If it turns out to be true that the new mystery router table isn't modular and there will be no hope of putting a TS75 into one...well that's all the more reason for me to just order what I want from Europe now. I'm also rumored to be obsessive and impatient.  [smile]

I've heard a few other rumors about all this, so who knows.

1. CMS inserts are interchangeable. So you can buy just insert in the Europe and bring it with you.
2. First CMS parts arrived into USA in 2003/05, so we can wait for few more years.
3. OF-2200 accepts collets from OF-2000/OF-1400

Cheers,
VictorL

 

[Ken Nagrod]

Your dealer is referring to the CMS-GE, I believe is the European model designation.  It won't have interchangeable inserts for tools and only accepts the routers.  Don't expect to see much in the way of inserts for saws of any type or table saws in the U.S. until the manufacturers, insurance companies and federal government get done with the safety and legal issues.

 

[jond]

Yes.. thats my understanding also.. it would be considered good practice to ensure UL certification. That said, I understand your point re employers not wanting to take on the liability for staff to use a CMS in the US, that said in fairness I wouldn't consider it unsafe.. seems fine for europeans, and there are some differences (e.g. in the UK I don't think you can use dado cutters, and the saws comes with shorter arbours to facilitate this)

What I was looking at doing if there was enough interest was ording some CMS sets to be delivered to me in UK and then ship then on, not as a business venture but to help fellow FOG'er. I think you are right re if going down this route not being able to claim taxes back, but the exchanges rates are ok, and thought if someone really wants they CMS its a small price to pay.

I think from a Festool perspecticve I won't have done anything wrong, I will have bought the unit from a UK dealer, shipper to a UK customer in the UK. Can't see why they would care what I then do with it. I just want to make sure I am not liable once the unit is used in the US.. am pretty sure I could write up a waiver (it was sold on the bais as being a rare museum piece to the US.. not for use!)

I'm ready, lets start up the group buy process! [big grin]