CS 70 or wait for Festool with sawstop?

[shu]

Thanks guys for the reply.

Why don't you have much choice? There are more brands sold in Australia besides Festool, right?

I'm a full-time designer and part-time builder. I need to do a little bit from framing to furniture, across my home, a warehouse 30 min away, and a couple of job sites occasionally.
This means I don't have the luxury or enough experience to fine-tune equipment every time after moving.
So I need something with good accuracy and mobility.
Please let me know if I have any other more affordable options.

...I have the 70, and I feel pretty safe working with it. I love how the pull action gives me options a standard saw does not have. I wouldn't want to be without the 70. I hope they make a CS70 with SawStop in it once.

Frankly I'm a bit disappointed that the saw stop was not built based on CS 50/70.

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[member=71478]FestitaMakool[/member] Thanks, I didn't realise the weight is a key factor until you mentioned it.

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...And if I'm in a pinch it easily replaces my Kapex for miter cuts as well (just not as comfortable and fast, of course).

I don't have a mitre saw yet. And a pull saw might postpond the need for me to invest one [embarassed].

The set is 60 Kg. Not that you would take it all with you (I guess).

Oops. I reckon a trolley is a must.

That was one of the reasons I went for the CS 50. But then again, my needs where portability and fairly compact set up.
The sliding table and rigidity of it for the CS 70 seems great. But it screams stationary.
I have a similar set up as the slider for CS 70 on my Metabo/Elektra Beckum Secanta, only this slider is even bigger, and has support legs. It is great, but it stays in my shed. It is movable and can be transported in a normal passenger car (station wagon) but it’s not portable.

Is the 20mm additional cutting depth only marginal benefit, instead of essential?
I mean, if one has a cabinet saw in his shop and a job site saw in his van, that job saw is more likely to be 50. But if one can and only can have one saw, would it better to be 70?

[member=66123]shu[/member]
The new TKS 80 is listet AS available in June both in Australia and New Zealand.
If you do get the CS 70, be sure to pick up the “EBG” version which has the new legs, widening leg support, wheels and feet among other new features. Unless you get a very good deal on the older version. Same for the CS 50 if you ever opt for that as well.

Thanks!

 

[FestitaMakool]

In regards of power, the CS 70 has what I’ve learned plenty.
The CS 50 actually has too, as one I know who has a TS 55 and a CS 50 he tells that the CS 50 has more plenty more torque when ripping. Which is natural as they can fit a larger and heavier motor probably with more windings, in regards to a portable plunge saw. It will also come down to the wood and of course the right blade.

For bevel cuts the CS 70 shines on cutting depth in thicker 2x material. As it actually cuts through. An important thing to consider.

So for power and cutting depth the CS 70 shines.
If you are only doing thicker wood as framing/construction at a less frequent basis, a cheap small table saw (or indeed a HK 85) will do as there’s not the same need for precision. I did the decision to get the CS 50 for finer work and keep other saws for construction work.

That said, the CS 70 is the best all rounder [wink]

 

[AlexThePalex]

Let me know if you ever decide to part with it though.

No, I can't break up the set.

 

[Hawkeye0001]

Is the 20mm additional cutting depth only marginal benefit, instead of essential?
I mean, if one has a cabinet saw in his shop and a job site saw in his van, that job saw is more likely to be 50. But if one can and only can have one saw, would it better to be 70?

Depends a bit on what you do with it.
From my experience I'd opt for a bigger saw if you

• do a lot of beveled cuts (anything over about 4cm material thickness becomes iffy)
• work with plywood sheets larger than 60cmx120cm (too unwieldy and unstable on the small slider table)
• work a lot with rough sawn lumber
• don't need to carry it around a lot

I do cabinetry with it and have no cabinet saw simply for lack of space. But so far I've always found other ways to cope with those limitations, e.g. using my TSC 55 + rail to break down the larger sheet good items or rough lumber.

 

[Gregor]

If a Kapex with a finger-saving feature came out, I'd be among its first buyers (and I'd resell my current Kapex). The bandsaw finger-saving technology exists (already in use in Australia), and so does SawStop. It's time some good engineer figured out how it could be applied to the mitre saws. ;D

WTF are you doing with your Kapex to be afraid about your fingers? Please use the hold-down clamp so you can stop worrying.

Apart from that: an instant blade stop sawstop-style could not work on a kapex as it would push the blade into the workpiece. Possibly a purely electronic version (that reverses polarity at maximum power till the blade is at a standstill) could work to prevent the worst.

 

[BiBi WET]

Alex, sorry for my question, but I'm not familiar with English terms concerning woodworking (I live in France): What do you mean by "pull saw"?

Pas de problème, BiBi.

As the English say: Pardon my French.  [big grin]

Les mots "pull saw" signifie la possibilité de tirer la scie par le bois comme ça:

Your French is better than my English!

Merci pour les explications !

 

[shu]

In regards of power, the CS 70 has what Ive learned plenty.
The CS 50 actually has too, as one I know who has a TS 55 and a CS 50 he tells that the CS 50 has more plenty more torque when ripping. Which is natural as they can fit a larger and heavier motor probably with more windings, in regards to a portable plunge saw. It will also come down to the wood and of course the right blade.

For bevel cuts the CS 70 shines on cutting depth in thicker 2x material. As it actually cuts through. An important thing to consider.

So for power and cutting depth the CS 70 shines.
If you are only doing thicker wood as framing/construction at a less frequent basis, a cheap small table saw (or indeed a HK 85) will do as there’s not the same need for precision. I did the decision to get the CS 50 for finer work and keep other saws for construction work.

That said, the CS 70 is the best all rounder [wink]

In the limited construction work I get involved in, it barely gets thicker than 45mm. and my TS / HKC 55 seems more than enough.
It's the fine wood work that might need deeper cutting depth in my case. I have saved lots of 65mm slabs [big grin]  But they may need a TS 75 I guess. Is that right?

Depends a bit on what you do with it.
From my experience I'd opt for a bigger saw if you

• do a lot of beveled cuts (anything over about 4cm material thickness becomes iffy)

I do have lots of 40mm / 65mm raw slabs. But I may not start to use them in the foreseeable future.

• work with plywood sheets larger than 60cmx120cm (too unwieldy and unstable on the small slider table)

Most of the plywood sheets I work are 120cm x 240cm. But am I right I just simply use track saw?

• work a lot with rough sawn lumber

Not now but surely in 5 years time.

• don't need to carry it around a lot

Definitely need to carry it around a lot.
[/list]

I do cabinetry with it and have no cabinet saw simply for lack of space. But so far I've always found other ways to cope with those limitations, e.g. using my TSC 55 + rail to break down the larger sheet good items or rough lumber.

Now after considering the points you guys listed, I tend to go for CS 50. Not because I don't need a larger one, it's just the chance that I would need the additional cutting depth and power is rare, at least for now. And the additional weight is too much for a site saw.
And lumber cutting, when I eventually do a lot of it, would be most likely happening in a shop, and in a good number of years later.
The money saved from 70 to 50, may be given to a HK85?

 

[FestitaMakool]

Given that you may not need the additional depth for a while, your everyday back will probably thank you if you choose the CS 50. A HK85 would be a very portable companion for tougher jobs. It is more powerful than a TS 75. It can be used free hand, with standard FT rail, and indeed the FSK rails - which I think are brilliant! You’re on to monster saws if you want to cut 4x material anyway. And the HK 85 does cut all the way to 60° at 47mm depth, and 62mm at 45°

When I saw, and lifted both the 70 and 50 side by side, I found the CS 50 more modern, and very tempting as I had struggled moving in and out with my late Bosch GTS 10 XC.
The day I have room and money for a cabinet saw, my CS 50 will still be kept for those times I need it close or have it with me. Adding UG Wings or KA-KS and/or the MW 1000 extension table you’ll have a very competent setup, and even the sliding table is also compact enough to bring along for those occasions.

 

[Hawkeye0001]

One thing that just crossed my mind and I hadn't seen mentioned yet: with the CS 50 be prepared to be stuck with Festool's selection of saw blades. The 50 doesn't use a normal 30mm arbor hole but a proprietary one with a starshaped hole! Just be aware of that fact and take a look at the offered blade selection before you purchase your saw.

 

[shu]

That's a good point [member=68534]Hawkeye0001[/member]
[member=71478]FestitaMakool[/member] Have you find this a problem to seek exclusive blades for 50?

 

[neeleman]

Stehle also sells several blades for the CS 50 with the typical cross pattern hole.
The call it Fast-Fix (FX). I use one and it's a good one.
So maybe there are others in Europe/Germany as well?

 

[FestitaMakool]

That's a good point [member=68534]Hawkeye0001[/member]
[member=71478]FestitaMakool[/member] Have you find this a problem to seek exclusive blades for 50?

Actually I’ve only used the one that came with the saw, it suits my work now. It has a nice finish in ply (and behold, the few times I use MDF) and in soft wood such as pine or spruce. I have yet to test on oak, but soon that as well.

It’s a very proprietary with the fast fix star shape, but it’s a breeze exchanging blades - so it has its upsides as well. With kerf thickness, something that other brands mix as well, I tend to get a brand blade for my other tools anyhow. That be Makita, Bosch or whatever. They usually deliver good blades - My late Bosch miter saw had a very nice blade for crown mouldings - I would have bought the same again, or better.

I will probably just order FT blade(s) for my saw, but in regard to [member=7673]neeleman[/member] ’s post, I’ll have to look into this one [smile]

The CS 50 (Maybe the 70 as well?) has the same option to use the green splinter guard for near flawless cut quality as the TS saws. A kind of a zero clearance insert that even work with the pull mechanism  [wink]

Stehle also sells several blades for the CS 50 with the typical cross pattern hole.
The call it Fast-Fix (FX). I use one and it's a good one.
So maybe there are others in Europe/Germany as well?

Interesting, which market is it that you buy from? Could it be marketed under another brand elsewhere? Nice to hear about alternatives!

 

[neeleman]

I have no special market.
Just ask Stehle for selling points in your country and ask for the Ø190-20FX blades.
Stehle is not a cheap brand so don't expect them to be cheaper then the Festool ones.

 

[AlexThePalex]

I just can't wrap my head around the reason why they even made the CS50 with a proprietary connection for the blades.

I don't think Festool did it to force you to buy their blades only. The CS70 and TKS 80 don't have propietary holes but the standard 30 mm hole.

The 70 and 80 have a round hole, so the blade is connected to the motor's axle by the clamping force of the nut that holds it. But the 50 has a star shaped hole so the force of the motor is transferred to the blade directly with interlocking nibs, and not just clamping force. Apparently they were afraid the blade would slip otherwise. I don't get it.

It is really very restrictive you can only use the 5 or so blades that Festool produces. With my CS 70 I can choose between thousands of blades, from any manufacturer I want.
   

 

[Svar]

I just can't wrap my head around the reason why they even made the CS50 with a proprietary connection for the blades.

Perhaps experimenting with tool-less attachment?
Does CS70 have regular screw or Fast Fix for the blade?

 

[FestitaMakool]

I just can't wrap my head around the reason why they even made the CS50 with a proprietary connection for the blades.

Perhaps experimenting with tool-less attachment?
Does CS70 have regular screw or Fast Fix for the blade?

Well, ahh.. not excactly tool less. Since last post I was curious, and wanted to have a look for saw dust build up since I had done a few cuts without dc. Tried to remove the flat nut with D-ring with my bare hands. No, not anymore after some use, I had to use an allen key for some leverage. So, a standard wrench would be nicer. There are these two holes for, I don’t remember the name in English, that is a special arbor nut/washer remover that used be standard on angle grinders.

But: It looks good on video though!  [big grin] [big grin]

 

[DeformedTree]

I just can't wrap my head around the reason why they even made the CS50 with a proprietary connection for the blades.

I don't think Festool did it to force you to buy their blades only. The CS70 and TKS 80 don't have propietary holes but the standard 30 mm hole.

The 70 and 80 have a round hole, so the blade is connected to the motor's axle by the clamping force of the nut that holds it. But the 50 has a star shaped hole so the force of the motor is transferred to the blade directly with interlocking nibs, and not just clamping force. Apparently they were afraid the blade would slip otherwise. I don't get it.

It is really very restrictive you can only use the 5 or so blades that Festool produces. With my CS 70 I can choose between thousands of blades, from any manufacturer I want.
 

So I don't think there was any evil intent by them, I think they were trying to do something new.  They were trying to make a tool-less blade change that can be done quickly, and not have the knuckle busting aspects of a typical blade change.  Your correct, the nut would not produce clamp load for this, it isn't going to produce anything really. Watching the video it has "min 3Nm" right on the nut.  That is nothing.  But it's about as much as you can expect from the tips of someones fingers. So the nut is just there to prevent it from walking off.  I'm guessing the flip lever thing works with something like a Belleville washer to hold things "tight".  The 5 point thing is a spline.  One could wonder why they invented a new odd looking thing verses just cut a standard spline in the blades, but I'm guessing it was a manufacturing reason, they could laser cut or stamp the blades with this pretty easy, verses having to broach every blade.

Honestly, it's a nice design, but if you don't have everyone adopting it, it's DOA.  Such is the fate of a lot of improved designs. 

They probably got grumbles about it, so decided not to continue it.

 

[AlexThePalex]

Aha, they decided to go for FastFix - toolless blade change. And for that little feature you have to say goodbye to 10.000 good sawblades you can't use anymore, and then you still have to use a wrench becase the nut is locked too tight. Sounds like a great improvement.

 

[DeformedTree]

Aha, they decided to go for FastFix - toolless blade change. And for that little feature you have to say goodbye to 10.000 good sawblades you can't use anymore, and then you still have to use a wrench becase the nut is locked too tight. Sounds like a great improvement.

We don't have the saw, so no idea price difference on blades.  But if everyone adopted it, it wouldn't be an issue.

As someone in N.A. it's a *shrug* situation, as 30mm arbor blades are rare/odd/expensive here.  Normal blades are 5/8" arbor here.  So for any of my festool or mafell stuff I can't go to the corner hardware store any buy a blade for them.  When someone see's the tools they will ask about the blade and ask if it takes "standard blades",  when I say yes "standard metric blades" they scoff and decide completely against the tools because they can't go to home depot and buy one.

this is a part of my anger towards festool and them going inch in N.A.  it makes the change over harder, and makes getting the US to use standard global stuff harder.

 

[AlexThePalex]

Normal blades are 5/8" arbor here.

American blades. But not normal.  [tongue] [wink]