Cutting table - update

[Steve Jones]

Another question.  Looks like you have thin rips pretty much solved.  Are you ripping and cross cutting you face frames and door and drawer parts on this table as well?  If so how is it handling hardwoods.

Final question.  What about the other axis?  I'm going to need rips probably up to the full 8' in some cases.  It would be nice to be able to keep the pencil in my pocket and handle that with ruled stops as well.

Thin rips are covered easily by the right hand stop, There is much discussion about getting thin rips from thin stock - use bigger pieces guys!

Frankly i used to rip the frames (not so much face frame work, I usually talk the customer out of it, I pretty much detest all the hinges I have seen that work with face frames, as far as I'm concerned it's an outmoded way of making cabinets inefficiently, you can get away with bad cabinets and doors and bang the hinges around to align them, tacky!

i do however usually make 5-piece doors, these days I get my rail and stile stock already ripped, cut, squared and sanded, I simply cut to length and route the profiles. (shop around, this may be catching on in your area, so far i can buy Maple, Oak, and Mahogany all prepared this way from my lumber supplier at not much over the going board foot price. (you have to buy in bundles of 100 linear feet) sized in 3/4" x 2" or 3/4" x 2 1/2"

Other door and drawer parts (I use 1/2" ply for drawer parts) are cut on the table, sometimes norrower parts (shallow drawer sides and ends) are cut to length on the miter saw because I can set the stop, stack them  and cut them 4 at a time.

For long cuts on sheet goods I use the table and a long rail, (stuff that fits in the sizes for the edge guide get cut that way) everything else I use shop made story stick to the widths I cut (for example I rip a lot of 11 1/4" strips for top cabinets,) story sticks are made in pairs each is an "L" shape with the leg very short to sit over the edge of the material, the top of the stick touches and pushes the top hat on the rail unit its perfectly in place, for a bunch of narrow rips at odd sizes I sometimes use the edge stops supplied with the 32 system kit.

 

[Steve Jones]

Missed a question: you also asked about how it handles hardwoods.

It handles hardwoods great, I don't much like the edge I was getting with the Festool Panther blade, cuts reasonably quick but I like all my cuts to be ready for assembly (sanding and jointing while great fun take too long - and I don't own a jointer)  I recently received a Tenryu blade for evaluation (which I haven't written yet) but the thing is awesome! its what the Panther should be, rip cuts fast in hardwood with an edge as perfect as the fine Festool blade in plywood (and it doesn't eat the edge strip from your rail like the panther does). And I understand it will be cheaper. Thanks Tenryu - nice one

 

[fshanno]

Steve,

That's what I wanted to hear.  This is less work, less lifting, more efficient material handling in general.  And safer than a Sawstop.  A panel saw is just not as versatile.  You've got a true production setup with a lot of versatility to boot.  Plus you're not as likely to scratch prefinished ply or melamine.

You mention experimenting to square the rail in picture no. 7.  That's a key to success.  What technique did you use to get the stop in the right place on that opposite side?

Do you cut dadoes and rabbets with this setup?

 

[Steve Jones]

Old carpenters trick for aligning any power saw to square, works for miter saws and radial arm saws.

Place a scrap of the widest material the saw will cut (about 8" for my miter saw, 4' for the cutting table) preferably as long as the fence and cut it in the middle, flip the offcut piece away from you (the cut edges stay together, the edge that was towards you is now away from you), slide the pieces together and look at the join, if it does not taper at either end you are set perfect. if any taper appears forming a gap adjust and re-cut until the join is tight.

BTW this also works for the MFT.

I use two sizes of dado, 1/4 for drawer bottoms and cabinet backs and 1/2" for drawer sides. the 1/4" are usually done with two passes of the TS on the table (I usually use a scrap shim to put between the workpiece and stop on the first cut, remove it and slide up for the second, means all my dados end up in the same place and the same width.

For the 1/2" it quicker (and much messier) to use an old radial arm saw (you can pick these up very cheap, nobody wants them anymore, mine was given to me) I leave a dado blade set to 1/2" on the saw with the blade turned sideways (parallel to the fence) and 3/8" from the fence - that way I can quickly feed any drawer parts through the saw without any measuring or setup involved, the radial arm saw's main disadvantage is the mess it makes.

 

[fshanno]

How about an adjustable story stick for rips.  Here's a concept.

[attachimg=#1]

 

[JEFF JOHNSON]

Steve,

Absolute dream setup....
Can't imagine how incredibly useful this setup must be...
Your table is so well thought out... You have truly captured the ideal situation...
I don't have much space... that I can dedicate to a table.. but if I did this would be it.. hands down!!!

Did you ever think about an actual bissemeyer fence... or unifence or something that would stick into the table more than the kreg stop?
You could use it to gang cut face frames etc...
The complication... would be that you would have to have some sort of rail imbedded in the table in front of it that you could slide stops to the right of the fence to pull your boards against..

The only extra advantage would be to crosscut more than one board at once... just an idea...not sure if it is worth dealing with the stops to the right of the fence...

Unless there is a table saw fence that the actual rail that the fence rides on is raised enough to pull boards against...

 

[Steve Jones]

Jeff,

Thanks for the kind words.

I actually experimented with a Incra fence (love those things) on the table early on, but since I can be sure of my crosscuts (right angles) and not sure of the factory edges on sheet goods, i found I get good enough accuracy and more speed with the simple Kreg stop.

I also have considered the table saw type fence to run across the cutting table for bunch-cutting rails & stiles, but I get away with 4 at a time on the miter saw which also has a full length Kreg rail fence and stop setup (same rail but uses a flip stop since the fence is long and shared with the radial arm saw and needs to get out of my way sometimes - it's also handy because I set the stop and the flip it up to cut the first piece 1/2" long to lose the factory edge on the board stock too).

 

[JEFF JOHNSON]

Jeff,

That setup on your mitre saw sounds great... unfortunately I don't have a great fence there.. Your table has inspired me to make a narrower version for crosscutting only.. Right now everything has to be portable..my mitre is on a ridgid msuv... and I have a ridgid portable table saw.. so you can see why I want to use the guide to rip full sheets... and crosscutting is the one gap that I need to fix... as the capacity for sleds on my ts wouldn't be safe.. and not nearly as fun.. I wan't to get rolling on a new project for my home.... Unfortunately, I can't work with wood for a living yet!!! maybe someday.. anyway...

So what I was planning was to make a crosscutting table about 24" deep by 8 foot long... make a front and rear fence like yours with a cutout for the guide.. that I can just setup on sawhorses or a folding table and start cutting...

would 3/4 mdf, or plywood, or a prefab laminate counter top be best for this? what material should I use for the front and rear fence?  was it hard to get the slots where you place the rail square?

Do you find when you pull pieces toward the front fence to cut that there is risk of movement of the rail or piece.. I heard it is much better to push the work against the far fence to prevent this... do you clamp down the piece or the rail? Or is this a non issue...

Any direction would be appreciated......

 

[JEFF JOHNSON]

Steve, Sorry called you jeff on the last post....

Ok, now I am thinking that I need to go the full 4x8 sheet... after reading through your whole process again... simply amazing... can't imagine how anyone who owns a small cabinet shop could want to do it any other way....brilliant..

I am just a homeowner with lots of projects ahead... lots of built ins and cabinets... all paint grade... prefinished ply for the inside of the cab.. painted face frames and doors..

So... Help me out with this one.. my shop doubles as a garage... so.. The amazing part about the table is that it is really just a mdf top with the front maple fence screwed to it.. the back aligning fence is screwed to the table underneath right?

So, I would like to use this set up somehow by making it somewhat temporary..... I could leave it up for a week at a time etc... So what do think about this...

I buy a sheet of 3/4 mdf... pocket screw a front fence out of hard maple... leaving a cutout for the rail... Is the maple stock 1by or 5/4? ...
I put the top on some sort of supports... folding tables.... sawhorses... sawhorses with stringers would probably be best...
when I am done the only way I could free up my garage is if i take the top off and lay it on edge (protecting it somehow)...

1st... any ideas on how i would support the table underneath.. keeping it ridgid  enough to funtion this way? 

2nd... I would have to find a way to secure that back fence... directly to the mdf .. which will cause a tight fit for plywood.. and probable impossible for mdf.. unless I somehow extended it by a panel underneath...hmm...

3rd... you mentioned about keeping stock flat and how important that is.. not knowing much about that... do you see major problems for me keeping the mdf from warping et... leaning against a wall when not in use?

While typing this I think I just came up with another Idea... wow.. If I could find a used folding ping pong table!!! that folds in half and rolls!! ive got to check those dimesnsions, but I could replace the top... with the right size mdf... could work great...

but for now, what do you think of those first few questions..

Thank You!!!

 

[JEFF JOHNSON]

Ping pong table... 5ft wide by 9ft long...30" height.. very promising...
Oh yea... tried my reach across the table... not quite 4'...
solution.. stand on a stool... lean over the table... put left hand down to support your weight.... not an issue...

 

[JEFF JOHNSON]

Does anyone else use a system like Steve's?
Using stops to push the rail against... saving on measuring square every time?

 

[pci]

Does anyone else use a system like Steve's?
Using stops to push the rail against... saving on measuring square every time?

I use thishttp://festoolownersgroup.com/index.php?topic=3791.0

with a fence made of plywood.

The square precision is about 0,0039" on a 23" length +- 0,0078 the error of my measurement tool.

note: i can also cut really small piece.

I updated it a little i have to post new pics.

regards

 

[JEFF JOHNSON]

hey Pci...
That is awesome..
Is the rail attached to the bridge?
or does it just but up against those stops?
do you crosscut pulling the piece against the front of the bench or pushing it toward the back?
How did you make your "bridge" supports.. cutting the slots etc... do they have to be spot on to keep it square?
thanks!!

 

[pci]

hey Pci...
That is awesome..
Is the rail attached to the bridge?
or does it just but up against those stops?
do you crosscut pulling the piece against the front of the bench or pushing it toward the back?
How did you make your "bridge" supports.. cutting the slots etc... do they have to be spot on to keep it square?
thanks!!

Q1: Yes the rail is clamped with a FS RAPID to the bridge. It's faster
Q2: and it is blocked on the stops
Q3: I don't move the piece but the TS55

Q4: The bridge is plywood & the stops are  mdf + i use my of 1400 + parallel guide 

How do i setup it:
I "normalize" my blocker fence. I use only one side as my reference.
I draw a on my blocker fence a square line. i ajdust my blocker fence on my reference side
the i clamped the rail & adjust the stop.
Do the cut.

How do i use it:
the part of the piece to keep is always under the rail.
For the first piece.
I measure from the left side the width i want (do it with an incra T rule).
Then to adjust the rail i slide down the bridge as the stops stop on the piece to cut. (do it for each foot of the bridge )
Ok now i've my height setted.
I put my blocker fence against the piece clamp the rail and cut.

The next piece is easy

another hint i clamp my mft on a workmate b&d 550. I remove the removable jaw and place my table. This is why there some part under the table.

a picture.

 

[JEFF JOHNSON]

pci...
So little help here...
Is the rail not attached to the bridge in any way.... before it is clamped...
you simply but the left edge of the rail against the two small pieces of plywood .... and then clamp it?
I looked at pics of the fs clamp, but cant picture how it works..

two pieces.. one small and one with a trigger...

I imagine they both attach to the rail...
Do you position the smaller one at the far end of the bridge on the back side?
Then you slide on the trigger side on the front... and tighten essentially pulling those two pieces together?
Thanks...

 

[pci]

pci...
So little help here...
Is the rail not attached to the bridge in any way.... before it is clamped...
you simply but the left edge of the rail against the two small pieces of plywood .... and then clamp it?
I looked at pics of the fs clamp, but cant picture how it works..

two pieces.. one small and one with a trigger...

I imagine they both attach to the rail...
Do you position the smaller one at the far end of the bridge on the back side?
Then you slide on the trigger side on the front... and tighten essentially pulling those two pieces together?
Thanks...

The rail is not attached in any way before it is clamped.
Then the FS RAPID clamp it.

The two pieces go under the rail.
I attached two picture to help you figure out how it works.

 

[JEFF JOHNSON]

Pci,
I am blown away by your rendering skills!!!
Thank You!
I am designing a table like steve jones...
And I am thinking of how to incorporate your bridge as well...
What is the minimum amount of rail I need protruding from the front part of the bridge in order for the pistol grip side to function properly?

 

[pci]

Pci,
I am blown away by your rendering skills!!!
Thank You!
I am designing a table like steve jones...
And I am thinking of how to incorporate your bridge as well...
What is the minimum amount of rail I need protruding from the front part of the bridge in order for the pistol grip side to function properly?

I think you're right ! the steve's table is better.
I use mine because i don't have room for more. But sure if i have more room one day i'll built the steve's one

The table is 23" wide and i use a FS1400, it's really comfortable. The FS800 is too small.

regards.

 

[JEFF JOHNSON]

I am thinking of incorporating your fs rapid clamping idea... into steve jones cutting table..
by making two fences in front and back that would incorporate the fs-rapid..
the fences could be made so there is a slot that the fs rapid pieces fit in to align the rail perfectly square....
this could be made to tighten the rail... up against the side stops... or if it is strong enough.. they could act on their own...
have you thought of adding 2 strips on each side of your raise-able bridge so that the clamping pieces always pull the rail snug up against the stops?

 

[pci]

I am thinking of incorporating your fs rapid clamping idea... into steve jones cutting table..
by making two fences in front and back that would incorporate the fs-rapid..
the fences could be made so there is a slot that the fs rapid pieces fit in to align the rail perfectly square....
this could be made to tighten the rail... up against the side stops... or if it is strong enough.. they could act on their own...
have you thought of adding 2 strips on each side of your raise-able bridge so that the clamping pieces always pull the rail snug up against the stops?

I feel a good idea but I don't understand it. You lost me with your natural english ;-) (i'm french)
What kind of strip ? Wood, steel, plastic, ...