Does the Carvex get hot?

[AlexThePalex]

Hi Jonathan - ignore the ludicrous 'two saws for use whilst one is cooling down' posts. Or maybe these are coming from the lottery-winner guys who have two of everything - just in case. Two Fisker-Galpin Rocket Mustangs. "Yeah. I bought another one just in case the first one's ashtray got full or the windshield got a splattered mosquito on it" ......... 

My apologies, I didn't realise I had to take into account the abject poverty of the average FOG user. I realise now I was way out of line if a $300 jigsaw is as far out of reach for you as a $120.000 car.

I was merely under the assumption, considering the average tradesman here can easily have €20.000 of tools, that if you use a saw for 4 hours a day, it might not be a very bad idea to have a couple of them.

 

[mrboult]

If you like your current jigsaw then I will agree that a second might be the way to go.

Otherwise the Mafel receives universal praise.

I don’t believe any of the other examples given here compared to the 7ft highly accurate rip cuts you are doing, so bare that in mind.

‘Non-stop’ cuts on a roof presumably don’t compare as they’re likely;
- often more cross cuts
- soft wood cuts
- not actually non-stop cutting (how would that happen on topical a roofing job?)

Good luck & Nice work

 

[Jim_in_PA]

For a business operation, having redundant tools isn't a luxury. It's a necessity in many cases, so the suggestion from many folks to leverage multiple tools for continuous use isn't out of hand nor the realm of a lottery winner. I'm mostly an avocational user with some commission work. Even so, I have duplicates of certain tools because it provides advantages functionally. For a business, it does that plus insures that paying work can continue. The OP is doing some extraordinary work with the jigsaw that takes a lot of time to complete. Delays for cooling, regardless of the tool brand/model, have impact on paying productivity. So I stand by the recommendation of multiple tools for this kind of situation.

 

[JonathanJung]

Yeah a couple saws is the way to go. The Mafell also gets hot as do most barrel grip saws. I like it the best. A top handle might help you endure long sessions better.

This is very helpful info. Anyone else have the Mafell and can comment to its heat buildup over long use?

Hi Jonathan - ignore the ludicrous 'two saws for use whilst one is cooling down' posts. Or maybe these are coming from the lottery-winner guys who have two of everything - just in case. Two Fisker-Galpin Rocket Mustangs. "Yeah. I bought another one just in case the first one's ashtray got full or the windshield got a splattered mosquito on it" ......... 

Everything with a motor will obviously get warm to some degree. My experience (based on 3 years use/abuse/torture of my P1CC) is that it never gets hot enough to make me feel that it's getting outside of its comfort zone. I've used it on numerous site jobs, cutting multiple birdsmouths in 12" x 4" roof rafters with a 150mm (6") long blade on roofing jobs for maybe 4, 5, 6 hours - literally nonstop - and it was barely warm to the touch. It obviously has a lot to do with the blade, material type, cut type (rip or crosscut), and quality of cut you need - faster/rougher or slower/finer. Everything the company makes is aimed at the pro user and is over-engineered accordingly. It's a stunningly good jigsaw which really sets the bar way high. The real competition-killer is the blade clamping mechanism. It's literally the only jigsaw out there which delivers cuts which are consistently 100% square to the surface. It works with all standard Bosch-type bayonet blades, and Mafell also make a specialist blade called the 'Cunex W1' = 2 x blades welded together for ultimate stiffness and day-long use without machine fatigue. Seek a P1CC out and try it if you can. It even comes in a proper T-Loc Sys 1 Systainer instead of the new Sys3 nonsense ......... 

Oh - and I checked out your website. Lovely work.

No affiliation - just a very happy and 100% satisfied professional user.
https://www.mafell.de/fileadmin/use...oge/Saegen/p1cc/Broschuere_P1cc_EN_1019_s.pdf

Thank you for the feedback about the Mafell, that is very helpful. And for the compliment.

My wife is from Bedfordshire, not more than an hour or two from you.

 

[JonathanJung]

Hi Jonathan - ignore the ludicrous 'two saws for use whilst one is cooling down' posts. Or maybe these are coming from the lottery-winner guys who have two of everything - just in case. Two Fisker-Galpin Rocket Mustangs. "Yeah. I bought another one just in case the first one's ashtray got full or the windshield got a splattered mosquito on it" ......... 

My apologies, I didn't realise I had to take into account the abject poverty of the average FOG user. I realise now I was way out of line if a $300 jigsaw is as far out of reach for you as a $120.000 car.

I was merely under the assumption, considering the average tradesman here can easily have 20.000 of tools, that if you use a saw for 4 hours a day, it might not be a very bad idea to have a couple of them.

Thank you, you're absolutely right. However let's keep things more polite. You're right too, but in the grand scheme of things, you'd have to quadruple that number and then you'd be close, for a single-member shop such as mine.

 

[JonathanJung]

If you like your current jigsaw then I will agree that a second might be the way to go.

Otherwise the Mafel receives universal praise.

I don’t believe any of the other examples given here compared to the 7ft highly accurate rip cuts you are doing, so bare that in mind.

‘Non-stop’ cuts on a roof presumably don’t compare as they’re likely;
- often more cross cuts
- soft wood cuts
- not actually non-stop cutting (how would that happen on topical a roofing job?)

Good luck & Nice work

I was wondering the same thing. Cutting birdsmouths or roof work or pieces of metal here and there is not what I'm doing. There's probably down time in between the softwood framing cuts. Even a minute or two helps the machine cool.

 

[JonathanJung]

For a business operation, having redundant tools isn't a luxury. It's a necessity in many cases, so the suggestion from many folks to leverage multiple tools for continuous use isn't out of hand nor the realm of a lottery winner. I'm mostly an avocational user with some commission work. Even so, I have duplicates of certain tools because it provides advantages functionally. For a business, it does that plus insures that paying work can continue. The OP is doing some extraordinary work with the jigsaw that takes a lot of time to complete. Delays for cooling, regardless of the tool brand/model, have impact on paying productivity. So I stand by the recommendation of multiple tools for this kind of situation.

This is spot on. And something that a lot of hobbyists are unaware of. And which is why I hesitate sometimes to post Qs on forums because I don't know what angle the responses will be coming from.

 

[MrToolJunkie]

I think you should get a second saw. I have 3 or 4 going at times. Different blades and set up not unlike a router. I do agree with the statement about Mafell being over engineered. I find my Mafell  tools are built for rugged use and accuracy and they are a pleasure to use. That said I have also been very happy with my cordless Carvex and Trion jigsaws.

 

[mrboult]

As this is a jigsaw thread, I will mention that as someone who has used many pro jigsaws (never the Mafel) and owns both the festool jigsaws. . I think the Trion is the best by far, I’ve never understood why it seems so undervalued in the festool line up. The blade alignment does need setting properly for the blade thickness, but once that is done it is so smooth and accurate I can hardly believe it.
Even after a decade of ownership mine still surprises me when I pull it out for the more ‘serious’ jobs, over the convenience of my 18v Carvex. Carvex is still a lovely saw, but that Trion is WOW.

One day I’ll get to try the Mafel and see if really is THAT special

 

[Jim_in_PA]

As this is a jigsaw thread, I will mention that as someone who has used many pro jigsaws (never the Mafel) and owns both the festool jigsaws. . I think the Trion is the best by far, I’ve never understood why it seems so undervalued in the festool line up. The blade alignment does need setting properly for the blade thickness, but once that is done it is so smooth and accurate I can hardly believe it.
Even after a decade of ownership mine still surprises me when I pull it out for the more ‘serious’ jobs, over the convenience of my 18v Carvex. Carvex is still a lovely saw, but that Trion is WOW.

One day I’ll get to try the Mafel and see if really is THAT special

Yea, mine is a Trion barrel grip from the mid-2000s. OVer the years, I really only used it as a problem solver but sometimes that got to be creative work, such as sculpting a faux natural edge to replace rotted-beyond-salvage sapwood on the very cherry surface I'm typing on top of "as we speak".  The tool is getting used a lot more right now because I'm in a temporary shop space at our new property until I can build a building. My whole Festool arsenal use is kicked up a few notches because I had to sell my slider due to space constraints and not wanting to pay to move, store and move again a 1500 lb machine. So the Trion, track saw and my bandsaw are going to get a workout for awhile for things I can't or don't want to do on the CNC. The Trion is a beast and works very well.

 

[Joebuck]

Jonathan. Very nice work on your website. I really like the Bosch saw, but I think you’d be pretty happy with the Mafell. Based on my experience with both of them, I think the Mafell is worth the premium price tag in every respect. That said, the suggestion of having two saws is a valid one for your particular use.

 

[woodbutcherbower]

My genuine and sincere apologies to anyone who I've inadvertently offended by being honest. It never ceases to amaze me at just how wide the FOG forum chasm still is between the guy who does this to feed his family and keep a roof over his head - and the guy who likes to make stuff in his garage and has disposable ££££/$$$$ to spend on quality tools.

Professional users - like me - buy and use tools which are skilled, strong, but versatile football players - not ballerinas. If I have 20 or 30 x 6" holes to core-drill through a yard-thick stone wall and I only have one day to do it - I don't expect my Hilti drilling rig to need a relaxing R&R cooling-down rest, an aromatherapy massage or a psychotherapy-powertool-spiritual-wellness-session in between each hole. It has to work all day, every day - that's why it costs the big bucks, and that's why it contains a gearbox which looks like it came out of a miniature Kenworth/Scania truck. A gearbox which has now worked flawlessly for 20 years in a tool which now looks like junk, but which still works as well as the day I bought it.

So no - I don’t need to buy two of anything.

After a lifetime doing this - I also don’t feel the need to justify anything I do, or anything I say to other random unknown hobbyist/semi-pro people on here (and good for you all - I'm sure you're great and very skilled at what you do, and you have a lot of fun doing it) - but instead, I'll just leave you all with this picture of a vaulted green oak roof - constructed with the P1CC performing a crucial and integral role, since that is what OP Jonathan's thread was all about. I'm pretty sure that most other FOG members don't need to rent a $2500-per-day crane to install their projects.

Best wishes to all.

 

[rst]

Woodbutcher that is magnificent work, mucho kudos

 

[squall_line]

I'm glad this is the FOG (Festool Owners Group) rather than the FUG (Festool Users Group).

The number of people who own Festool tools that see less use before the warranty expires (myself included) than some pros see in a single day would probably bother people even more.

 

[FestitaMakool]

Any brushless jigsaw has a natural ability to run cooler.
A jig saw does also have a lot of mechanics involved too, generating heat from friction so a brushless motor needs mechanics that run cool too.

Judging by the wast number of used PS 300/Trion for sale from pro’s here, which still works. It tells me that it is the preferred jig saws on work sites.
However, those pro’s that are seeking high end cut quality and durability buy the Mafell. According to my dealer, they run cooler for long run times in addition to be extremely good and in a class of its own.

Woodbutcherbower - That’s a roof to recline for, without closing the eyes [smile]
Having followed Grand Designs this is right up my alley, great work!

 

[Crazyraceguy]

So no - I don’t need to buy two of anything.

I'm pretty sure that most other FOG members don't need to rent a $2500-per-day crane to install their projects.

Best wishes to all.

That's just another difference in what we all do and and how we do it.
As a cabinet shop pro, I do quite a bit of laminate and veneer work. This requires multiple router bits and specific set-ups with specialty bases. Many of these are used in sequence and repetitively too. Having multiple routers is by far the better way to go. Fortunately, these can be simple laminate trimmers, so the cost is not really a factor.
The same holds true with the solid surface work, not as extreme, but multiple full-sized routers are used there too. Sure, one could do it, but you would be forever changing bits.

As far as big rental equipment to install things? Yes, there have been more than a few that required some fairly extreme measures to get things into the building. Sometimes these are because of an error somewhere. Some are planned from the beginning. Most of the time, this is removing a big window or multi-panel doorway. On remodels of existing buildings, this is planned, but a couple of times it happened because of an order of operations mistake, where a window or doorway was finished too early on new construction.
Cranes and/or scissor lifts come in to play on high wall situations or when that window that got removed was on the second or third floor. Most of the big things that I build are in multiple pieces, just to cut down on this, but sometimes, it's not possible or practical.
After a few times of renting a scissor lift and seeing it become more frequent, the company actually bought one. It worked out great, because it is very handy in our own building when it's not on-site somewhere.

I'm pretty sure that this is why you said "most FOG members" though....

 

[Tom the Remodeler]

Jonathan,

One machine that hasn't been mentioned are portable band saws. These machines are designed explicitly for the application you're describing (precise, scrolling cuts in thick timbers), and while they're not inexpensive they'd likely served you better than a jig saw in the long term. I had an opportunity to try the Mafell Z5 when I took the training a few years ago, it's very intuitive and very precise. There is a local timber framer who uses one and just loves it.
https://www.timberwolftools.com/mafell-z5ec-portable-band-saw

To those who would scoff at the price, let's remember the OP is a professional asking about a heavy duty application, thus I am suggesting a professional piece of equipment.

Alternatively, is there a scenario where you could prepare 3/4" MDF templates for your cuts, rough-cut the finished pieces on a band saw, then use a shaper with a copy ring and spiral cutter to complete the finished pieces? I do this regularly for curved work and find it much easier.....

 

[AlexThePalex]

Jonathan,

One machine that hasn't been mentioned are portable band saws. These machines are designed explicitly for the application you're describing (precise, scrolling cuts in thick timbers), and while they're not inexpensive they'd likely served you better than a jig saw in the long term. I had an opportunity to try the Mafell Z5 when I took the training a few years ago, it's very intuitive and very precise. There is a local timber framer who uses one and just loves it.
https://www.timberwolftools.com/mafell-z5ec-portable-band-saw

I vote your solution the best, but Jonathan needs two so one can cool down.  [tongue]

 

[JonathanJung]

Wow this thread has been very informative to me. I knew the difference between hobbiest and commercial user was great, but this has brought it to the forefront. The stories and comments have helped solidify in my head the strongly different approaches to woodworking one has to take, depending whether it is for paying bills or having fun.

An update:

I spoke with the president of Timberwolf tools yesterday. Neither he nor the employees he spoke with about my situation have known anyone wanting to do anything similar with a jigsaw. While he recommends the Mafell above every other jigsaw, he was not willing to fully recommend it for my application. His concern is that no jigsaw was ever designed to perform in such a way. However, he said I can try the jigsaw. The offer is there for me to purchase it, use it for a month on my project, and then decide. If I want to return it I can get about an 85% refund. The only comment he could make about heat issues was that some customers have noted the Mafell runs warm. From that he is not convinced it will run cool enough for me, but because he doesn't know, it's worth a try.

If the Mafell does run hot just as my Bosch, then the only advantage I'd be buying into would be the double-thick blade, which could reduce the number of passes from 2-4 to 1-2. So, even if I had to buy two Mafells, the savings of time could be worth it.

Knowing now that the Mafell may not beat the heat issue, yesterday I played around with using my Bosch. I'm making drawer fronts for 3 office cabinets. What I discovered was:

the gold Carvex blade is ~2.35mm thick and useful for the first pass
the Festool fine blade is then good for the second pass
only once or twice was a third pass necessary

The Mafell double-thick blade is 3mm, for a .7mm advantage over the Carvex blade

The question I have yet to learn is, does that extra kerf width alone make enough of a time savings to justify the Mafell?

Will likely only know if I have the Mafell and can run half my project with it and half with the Bosch, timed against each other.

Can anyone recommend a fine-cut blade for curves? The straight fine blade is ok but bound up a few times when at a tight radius.

[attachimg=1][attachimg=2][attachimg=3]

 

[JonathanJung]

Jonathan. Very nice work on your website. I really like the Bosch saw, but I think you’d be pretty happy with the Mafell. Based on my experience with both of them, I think the Mafell is worth the premium price tag in every respect. That said, the suggestion of having two saws is a valid one for your particular use.

Thank you. That is helpful feedback.