Domino end stops

[spikfot]

  In an nut that is right on, Michael.

  At this time he tool and the attachments do their job well, and so do the wings if used as intended, the learning curve is short for well designed tools, but it seems people want some kind of auto pilot machine for all purposes.  I said I don't trust the wings to be 100% accurate, and  because of the number of variables involved it is totally unreasonable for a person to expect it.    Every tool has limitations for accuracy, the dom meets mine as I accept the reality of the variables of precise repetition. Get a cnc for about  100 times the cost of a domino if that is what you need. 
 

 

[Dixon Peer]

  In an nut that is right on, Michael.

  At this time he tool and the attachments do their job well, and so do the wings if used as intended, the learning curve is short for well designed tools, but it seems people want some kind of auto pilot machine for all purposes.  I said I don't trust the wings to be 100% accurate, and  because of the number of variables involved it is totally unreasonable for a person to expect it.    Every tool has limitations for accuracy, the dom meets mine as I accept the reality of the variables of precise repetition. Get a cnc for about  100 times the cost of a domino if that is what you need. 
 

Well, all right.  I just ordered my $300,000 CNC router.

 

[fidelfs]

  In an nut that is right on, Michael.

  At this time he tool and the attachments do their job well, and so do the wings if used as intended, the learning curve is short for well designed tools, but it seems people want some kind of auto pilot machine for all purposes.  I said I don't trust the wings to be 100% accurate, and  because of the number of variables involved it is totally unreasonable for a person to expect it.    Every tool has limitations for accuracy, the dom meets mine as I accept the reality of the variables of precise repetition. Get a cnc for about  100 times the cost of a domino if that is what you need. 
 

Well, I accept the the reality of the variables of precise repetition.  I bought and Incra (LS positioner) and believe me It is precise and cost less than some festool tools.  I know its functon is not to make mortises but I can do some with some ingenuity and my lift router, and with accurate repetition.  Is this the intended function no, but it works 100 percent with precise repetition.  Will I use it for cut all my mortises, no.  I have to do double work to make it work.

The discussion is not about the Domino, it is about the cross cuts wings. 

I would not buy a tool that cannot do its job 100%.  That is the reason why I bought the Domino, Do I regret the purchase, NO..... It is a great tool.  Do I like the other attachments, NO. 
I don't expect auto pilot functions, I am not naive.  What I expect is this attachment to stand up to the festool reputation, German Engineer, They work fine the first time out the box, etc...

 

[Warrior]

Loren,
I use the dominoes for mitered cabinet doors and picture frame casings all the time. To make it work you push together the miters on the opposite corners and then put both L sections together. Clamp it up and you have some bullet proof miters that IMO are way stronger than biscuit reinforced miters.

This thread has been of interest to me since I am not one of those who sold, gave away or otherwise abandoned my trusty DeWalt biscuit jointer after purchasing a Domino setup. 

The main reason is "I am cheap" and I had quite a stock of biscuits on hand.    Another reason is for plywood cabinetry, I have worked out a system using biscuits and drywall screws that is fast and needs no external clamping in most cases.  The biscuit system is quite forgiving on exact location.

However for solid wood joinery, where a mortise and tenon would be the best, the Domino excels. 

The only place where I still use biscuits is for the mitered corner frame and panel cabinet doors I like.  I don't see how the parts for these could be assembled using Dominoes at the corners.  Actually the first three sides could be assembled, but the last side would not be possible.  So I still use biscuits in this application.

 

[Brice Burrell]

I think an explanation is in order as to why I feel so passionate about this. I really do want to help people understand how great these tools are. I think Festool products can make a difference to a professional woodworker trying to earn a living in a competitive field. Let me give you an example, I use the Domino to make cabinets. I cut mortises in the panels using the Domino, I only make a couple of mortises using the cross stops. The accumulated error from one two mortises is insignificant, yet the speed the cross stops offers is significant. This greatly speeds up the production, which in turn increases profitability. And that makes the difference to the guy trying make a living. So when someone trashes a good tool or accessory, a guy who could have really used that product is now unsure about a potential purchase. That really ticks me off.

If anyone want to continue the discussion read on....

Fidelfs, I hope I've not offended you (or anyone else), that is not my goal. Your comment about "making them work" or " have to do double work to make the tenons fit" sort of implies I an somehow doing more work or taking more time to use the cross stops. As Michael and Dave pointed out using the cross stops is fast, there is no more time or effort involved in their use, so I can not agree with you. If you can't see this it is because you don't have much experience using them. Using an accessory once and getting poor results is experience, yes. However, please understand I have far more experience with this accessory.

  I completely understand, you guys are basing your opinion on your bad experience. What I don't understand is your unwillingness to see past your own limited experience. I've not read anyone arguing that what I'm saying isn't true. Using OP's example of mortises offset by 2 mm , tenons will fit into the mortises in this example, that is a fact. Yet the OP states the cross stops don't work?? If the tenons fit, what doesn't work?? Someone give my a rational explanation as to why they don't work. Saying they don't work as they should is not an explanation. I'm not kidding when I said I want to understand.

 

[greg mann]

Well, I accept the the reality of the variables of precise repetition.  I bought and Incra (LS positioner) and believe me It is precise and cost less than some festool tools.  I know its functon is not to make mortises but I can do some with some ingenuity and my lift router, and with accurate repetition.  Is this the intended function no, but it works 100 percent with precise repetition.  Will I use it for cut all my mortises, no.  I have to do double work to make it work.

The discussion is not about the Domino, it is about the cross cuts wings. 

I would not buy a tool that cannot do its job 100%.  That is the reason why I bought the Domino, Do I regret the purchase, NO..... It is a great tool.  Do I like the other attachments, NO. 
I don't expect auto pilot functions, I am not naive.  What I expect is this attachment to stand up to the festool reputation, German Engineer, They work fine the first time out the box, etc...

If you want to use your LS positioner to move the Domino along the board I have no doubt you could line up mortices accurately, because there is no cumulative error. If you are unwilling to recognize the difference between the cross stops which can be popped off and on a portable tool and used effectively in the manner intended without undue effort or care and an LS positioner bolted to a table with a full length lead screw with indexer, then forgive me, but you are just being obtuse. Festool created the ability to make wider mortices precisely to deal with the reality of accumulated error. There is no other reason that I can think of for mortices wider than the dominos than to accomodate error induced by accumulation or operator. I see no need to look any further than that to recognize that Festool understood from the very beginning that users would have trouble, under the best of circumstances, trying to make a series of tight mortices spaced out perfectly. Since that is your goal I would suggest use a tool designed for that technique, a pencil comes to mind.

 

[fidelfs]

First, This discussion is about a tool.  Please don't call me names.  I really resent being called obtuse.  I didn't say anything about anyone.  I won't even discuss it because it is not civilized.

I understand all you are saying.

Brice,

I have seen the video from festool so many times to see If I am missing something, and I am using it as intended.  As the experience with the tool, Yes, you have more than I do.  I don't see that as the problem. 

As you can tell English is not my first language so please be patient if I use more words than normal.

And again, I am not talking about the Domino.  Domino is working 100% optimal, It is innovative, well engineer, It is a great help not just for Pros, It is helping me and I am a hobbyst. 

The design of the wings is perfect, the idea behind it is great.  That will speed up the process, no argue about that.

Let's look about this.  The locating pins that come with the main body (Domino) are attached at the motor.  When you exert pressure with  the Domino, the same force is exerted to the pins.  If one the pins isn't fully inserted (as this has happen to me before, I could feel it.  The domino becomes and extension of your hand.  It is very sensitive so you can prevent and correct a user error.

The Wings are made of plastic.  Attach it with plastic dovetails.  The more you extend the pins, the more flexible these locating pins wings become.  If the pin is not fully insert then you create problems with alignments.

The pins need to retract very easily to help positioning the Domino, this is not a problem but a potential issue if you aren't careful.  This is how they are suppose to work, but when you add the wings plastic material to the equation then is when you have the problem. 

I am able to use them and have decent align mortises, that won't prevent me to finish what I am doing.  Why they don't work as they are intended.  This is my reasoning:

The only function of this cross stop positioning attachments based on the Festool USA website "Cross stop. Allows easy indexing to run Domino tenons in series"  Is this a must attachment to index the tenons in series? NO...  You can do it with a led pencil.

Will the tenon/mortise weaker because I don't use the cross stop, NO....

Is this a reason to avoid buying the Domino? NO....

Someone give my a rational explanation as to why they don't work. Saying they don't work as they should is not an explanation. I'm not kidding when I said I want to understand.

  They work, that is what I said, but not as a Festool attachment should be.  You can index the mortises, Is this the function, yes it is. So they work, but Is there a potential issue, yes.
I know woodworking is not exact science, please understand what I am saying here.

Let's see other festool tools:
- TS55 and the guide rails.  The only problem I had with the rails is when I don't align the rail with mark.  User error.  Is this user error prone because the tool, design, material, etc? NO, simple and pure user error.
- RO125.  If I didn't change the setting back to rotary and I start sanding then I could ruin my peace. Is this cause because the tool, design, materia, etc? NO, simple user error.
- Now, the infamous jigsaw.  One complaint is you cannot see the line so you cannot cut accurate. Is this cause because the tool, desing, material, etc? NO...  If you want to see the line you have to sacrifice the dust extraction.  This is not a design problem this is a convenience to have the dust extraction. I cannot see the line very good with my Dewalt and I don't have dust extraction anyways so it is not the tool problem.

This wings could be made of something more substantial.  I am not suggesting as other that mention GPS systems, CNC routers, etc.  They are flimsy compare to the Domino robustness construction.

You also mention about giving a bad rep to a tool that can give the edge to pros, and we should not do that.  Well, If I see a tool review with mix reviews I can have a better informed purchase.  i.e. When I buy in Amazon and see different star reviews, I go first to 1 star review to see what the problem is, then I keep going to 2,3,4,5.  Then, I make my decision based in what other experience with the tool.

Believe me, people will be more interested to understand a tool when we discussed the pros and cons. 

Everything in this life is perception.  Why did you buy ABC, instead of DEF?  Because you like more ABC. That is the reasoning of buying Festool, it is more expensive but you know the quality, the service you are getting, and the tool will last longer so we like Festool, others will say no, I won't pay that amount of money to cut a hole in the wood, that is fine.  The cross stop don't help me.  I have to do more work and at the end I could have some issues, sorry they don't work for me but they do to you.
If you are talking about speed, what could be faster that using a pencil to mark the mortice's, but again that is me Fidel not you Brice.  This is a subjective point.

and again let's agree to disagree.

 

[Dixon Peer]

Right on "fidelfs".  English may not be your first language, but you do a really good job expressing yourself with it  .

 

[mastercabman]

When I buy in Amazon and see different star reviews, I go first to 1 star review to see what the problem is, then I keep going to 2,3,4,5.  Then, I make my decision based in what other experience with the tool.

that's very funny!!!    i do the same thing!

 

[spikfot]

  In an nut that is right on, Michael.

  At this time he tool and the attachments do their job well, and so do the wings if used as intended, the learning curve is short for well designed tools, but it seems people want some kind of auto pilot machine for all purposes.  I said I don't trust the wings to be 100% accurate, and  because of the number of variables involved it is totally unreasonable for a person to expect it.    Every tool has limitations for accuracy, the dom meets mine as I accept the reality of the variables of precise repetition. Get a cnc for about  100 times the cost of a domino if that is what you need. 
 

Well, I accept the the reality of the variables of precise repetition.  I bought and Incra (LS positioner) and believe me It is precise and cost less than some festool tools.  I know its functon is not to make mortises but I can do some with some ingenuity and my lift router, and with accurate repetition.  Is this the intended function no, but it works 100 percent with precise repetition.  Will I use it for cut all my mortises, no.  I have to do double work to make it work.

The discussion is not about the Domino, it is about the cross cuts wings. 

I would not buy a tool that cannot do its job 100%.  That is the reason why I bought the Domino, Do I regret the purchase, NO..... It is a great tool.  Do I like the other attachments, NO. 
I don't expect auto pilot functions, I am not naive.  What I expect is this attachment to stand up to the festool reputation, German Engineer, They work fine the first time out the box, etc...

  The LS super does the same for me,  allthough by the time I paid duty, tax, and shipping it cost the same as my domino- with 20% off machine, 25% off dom syst.

  I didn't say naive, but I think there are a few posters here  that have unfulfillable expectations of a system that re- referenses itself constantly. Aluminum instead of plastic would add more lateral stability, but not solve the unsolvable problem.  The accuracy of the cross stops are limited, but for shorter runs they save time and work great. once the workpiece goes over a few meters, it's the pencil- right tool for the right job. 
  Your English is fine, although the word "no" isn't typically capitalized.
  Just kidding, 

  Cheers,
    Bill.

 

[greg mann]

   The LS super does the same for me,  allthough by the time I paid duty, tax, and shipping it cost the same as my domino- with 20% off machine, 25% off dom syst.

  I didn't say naive, but I think there are a few posters here  that have unfulfillable expectations of a system that re- referenses itself constantly. Aluminum instead of plastic would add more lateral stability, but not solve the unsolvable problem.  The accuracy of the cross stops are limited, but for shorter runs they save time and work great. once the workpiece goes over a few meters, it's the pencil- right tool for the right job.   
  Your English is fine, although the word "no" isn't typically capitalized.
  Just kidding, 

   Cheers,
     Bill.

If there is anything in this thread that Dixon and I agree on it is your ability to express yourself, Fidelfs. I apologize for taking a shortcut of my own in that regard. As far as invoking the LS for comparison I think Bill very accurately summed up why I think this is a poor and unfair comparison.

 

[Forrest Anderson]

The Domino comes equipped with two retractable pins which are used to space out the mortise holes. When cutting mortises in one piece of wood, the left-hand pin is used to register off the end of the piece, or the previous hole, and the right-hand pin is used when cutting mortises in the other piece of wood. In order for the holes to match on each half of the joint, the distance between the cutter and the left-hand pin must be exactly the same as the cutter and the right hand pin. One pin is fixed a constant distance from the cutter, whilst the other can be adjusted towards or away from the cutter. This pin can be moved in fractions of a millimetre so that the pins are exactly the same distance from the cutter. One method of adjustment involves making a series of test mortises in scrap wood until the holes line up in the two pieces.

Rick Christopherson's Supplemental Manual for the Domino athttp://www.waterfront-woods.com/festool/ gives details of the calibration procedure on page 21, and he states "It is important that the two locating pins are perfectly spaced from the center of the mortise hole for properly aligned mortises".

This calibration only needs to be done once, but if the machine is not calibrated, then the machine will possibly space mortises at different distances in each half of the joint, and the mortises in the two pieces of wood will not match up.

The pins in the trim stop work the same way as the pins in the Domino itself. However, instead of one being a fixed distance from the cutter and the other being semi-fixed and finely adjustable over plus or minus half a millimetre or so, both pins slide freely along an outrigger rail. For the trim stop to work properly, the left and right pins need to be set at exactly the same distance from the cutter - just like the pins in the Domino itself. The problem is that many users will just use the scale on the arm and eyeball the placement of the pins. I would suggest that this "hmm, that looks about right" approach just isn't accurate enough, and may well be the problem that is bugging some users.

For the trim stop to work properly, it needs to be calibrated before use to make sure that both pins are equidistant from the cutter. Unlike the pins on the main machine, this calibration needs to be done each and every time one of the pins is moved. Eyeballing the scale and then proceeding to cut all the mortises on the workpiece is a very risky way to do things. Since sub-millimetre accuracy is required, I suggest using a vernier/digital caliper to set the pins the same distance from the cutter, and then making some test cuts in scrap wood to prove the setting is correct - just like you have to do with the pins in the main machine.

If a user is finding that the Domino is misaligning mortises, then surely the first thing to do is to check the calibration of the pins and adjust them so that they are exactly the same distance from the cutter. This applies to the built-in pins or the pins on the trim stop.

If the user doesn't want to go to all this trouble, then he must accept that the mortises on each half may not exactly match up with each other, and he should use the Domino's ability to cut wider mortises to allow for such mis-alingment.

Forrest

 

[Dave Rudy]

Fidelfs,

Sorry if I missed this in an earlier post on this thread, but could you answer a question to get us from theoretical to practical:  exactly what do you want to do with the cross stop that the tool is preventing you from doing?  To put it another way, if we designed a cross stop that was calibrated to a much greater level of precision, what would you use it for that you can't do with the cross stop?  Or, if you were the Festool engineers, what application would you design the cross stop to accomplish that it cannot accomplish now?

Thanks

 

[Loren Hedahl]

Loren,
I use the dominoes for mitered cabinet doors and picture frame casings all the time. To make it work you push together the miters on the opposite corners and then put both L sections together. Clamp it up and you have some bullet proof miters that IMO are way stronger than biscuit reinforced miters.

Eiji,

Thanks.  I learn something new every day.  Of course it should be done that way.  Don't know what I wasn't thinking!

The problem is it is just going to take that much longer to use up all those biscuits I got cheap on e-bay.  So I don't know if I'm actually ahead.  But I do really appreciate the advice.

 

[Brice Burrell]

Forest, there is no ability to sub millimeter adjust the cross stops, there is a detent at each mm.

Fidel, thank you for taking to explain your point of view. This is good, we have some dialog going now. I'd like to hear you and Dixon answer Dave's question:

...exactly what do you want to do with the cross stop that the tool is preventing you from doing?  To put it another way, if we designed a cross stop that was calibrated to a much greater level of precision, what would you use it for that you can't do with the cross stop?  Or, if you were the Festool engineers, what application would you design the cross stop to accomplish that it cannot accomplish now?

Fidel you have said at least twice now that we should agree to disagree. My problem is we don't really disagree. You agree the cross stops work, you (or no one else) has disagreed with what I have presented as "evidence" that the cross stops work. What we do disagree about is our own decisions to use them or not. One more thing about the pencil method, it is only fast in you don't measure out the marks, if you randomly place the marks across both pieces. In a production application it is important for all parts to fit together with its mate. Meaning the mortises in all top panels match with all side panels and so on. The random pencil method won't allow that. The marks would have to measured out and that would take much longer that using the cross stops.

 

[Forrest Anderson]

Forest, there is no ability to sub millimeter adjust the cross stops, there is a detent at each mm.

That would certainly make it a bit tricky to calibrate!  :-[

I wonder if there would be any mileage in asking the people who are having problems with their trim stop to accurately measure the gaps between the left/right stops on the outrigger bars
and the cutter? Naturally both stops would have to be set to the same measurement on the scale.

Forrest

 

[Brice Burrell]

  Forrest, I measured my cross stops with digital calipers, there was an error 0.19 mm between the two pins.

 

[fidelfs]

Fidelfs,

Sorry if I missed this in an earlier post on this thread, but could you answer a question to get us from theoretical to practical:  exactly what do you want to do with the cross stop that the tool is preventing you from doing?  To put it another way, if we designed a cross stop that was calibrated to a much greater level of precision, what would you use it for that you can't do with the cross stop?  Or, if you were the Festool engineers, what application would you design the cross stop to accomplish that it cannot accomplish now?

Thanks

Well, my first attempt with cross stop was a big shock.  If you read one of early entries I mentioned how different of quality between the Domino as a tool vs the cross stop as an attachment.  When I inserted the dovetails portion of the wing, I left maybe 1/32" out of alignment.  This is an user error and I make a point of difference between the Domino quality vs the wings.  If I change the bit and I open the Domino and don't alight correctly the fence body and the motor housing, the Domino simple won't close. 
In other words the Domino is so well design that a little variance is not supported.  The tool helps the user prevent and error. 

In the other hand, I was able to insert the wings and close the lock.  They were firmly attached but with a 1/32" misalignment and my cabinet parts didn't alight when I finish cutting the mortises.  This time the problem couldn't be solved using the large setting, It was another type of error caused for me, yes for me but if you have used another festool tools you will know when something is not properly attached.  This time it was like the wings were something cheap made in China, that didn't belong with my Domino.

I learned my lesson and didn't trust the wings anymore, I had to double check they were fully inserted before I locked them up.

My second frustration was when I made some cabinets for my shop.  I route the first mortise using the first Domino setting, the rest using the mid setting.  When I try the dry fit, I couldn't fit them together.
It looks like one of the locating pins didn't fully insert into the previous mortise, so it was a misalignment.  How I fixed this, I set the Domino to the largest setting and went over the mortises again.  Problem solved.

If you see a previous post I mentioned how the Domino became an extension of your hand.  This time I didn't feel a thing with the wings.  The resistance that the Domino fence body locating pins exert is enough to be transmitted to the user via the hand.  It is easy to detect a problem, not with the wings.  When you move the pin farther from the center of the Domino the more force you make against the wood, there is a potential flex for the wings.  This causes a misalign error that will accumulate.

Ok, I learned my lesson.  Every time I used the cross stops I have to cross my check list.

1. Double check the wings are fully inserted.  Being able to lock the wings does not guarantee they have being installed correctly.
2. Check for no debris in the mortises where the locating pin will go next.
3. Make sure when you press the Domino against the wood the pins are inserted into the mortises.
4. I am right handed so, before I start the cut use my left hand to check the pin is fully inserted and against the edge of the mortise.

It sounds trivial but I rather use a led pencil and not baby sit the cross stops.  I have perfect results using the led pencil without much hassle.
They don't prevent me to do my job, but I found out I can do it better, faster not using the attachment.

Let's imagine the Domino and the wings as an airplane.  The wings are part of the fuselage not an appendix of the airplane.  The wings are design to flex up and down, but they are not design to flex front and back. 

The function is to index the mortises.  They do that but create potential problems.

The TS55 and the rails, is a good sample.  Why festool made the TS55 to run on the rails and not against an edge of the rail?  Accuracy comes to my mind.  When you setup the TS55 on the rail, both of them become one, that is a system.  It is easy to sense the TS is not fully placed into the rail channels, that is what I am talking about the Festool quality.

I rest my case.  ;D

 

[Mirko]

   Forrest, I measured my cross stops with digital calipers, there was an error 0.19 mm between the two pins.

Brice,
Digital calipers???  0.19 mm??? your a carpenter aren't you?  How the f$%k can you make money  with that kind of accuracy?
Dude, its wood deal with it.

Mirko

 

[Dave Ronyak]

Brice,

I agree with your comments -- in a production setting in which you are making multiple identical cabinets or whatever and want the components to be interchangeable (side from cabinet A will fit equally well with top of cabinet A, B, C, etc.), the cross stops should be a great time saver.  As a hobbyist,  I am not likely to encounter that production situation.  Rather, I am usually making only one or two cabinets at a time.  I normally mark and keep the components of cabinet A together, and those of cabinet B together, etc., as I am also paying attention to the color and grain pattern in the wood (including plywood) I am working with.  So for me, use of a lead pencil to mark where I want the Domino mortises instead of using the cross stops and having to be sure no debris is causing false registration of the indexing pin, the pencil is my preference.  The cross stops work fine - I have no issues with left versus right variation of the stops themselves, or flexing, but the indexing pins whether on the Domino base or the cross stops don't have any means (other than the operator) to identify the presence of debris that is causing false index pin registration in a prior cut mortise.

Dave R.