Domino XL for Cedar Timber Frame

Hoosierkid

Member
Joined
Aug 16, 2012
Messages
5
Anyone have any experience with using the DXL on 6x6 and 4x6 cedar for timber frame on a porch structure?  These would have angle brackets of cedar dominoed as well under each joint.  I'm wondering the structural integrity of using them.  We can leave out the "its not as strong as real m/t joints", thats assumed.  Thanks for your input. 
 
welcome to the FOG!  Interesting question in my mind.  My guess is that some of our UK members might be able to offer their thoughts when their time zones allow.

Looking forward to the answers.  Can't wait to see what you have in mind.

Peter
 
I'm having trouble believing no one has tried or argued it yet.  Very little internet search results.  I have strength tested it by butt jointing it with 4, 140mm tenons and putting 300lbs on the end of a 6ft peice.  It held fine and I amagine it would do better if it was pinned as the guy from half inch shy suggests.  Very scientific indeed.
 
Ian Forsberg has been using the Domino XL to align purlins to beams in the video below. I would be careful using them for anything structural and make sure you use an ample number and size of tenons to support the joint. As I recall, this was Doug Fir. So, not cedar but the closest thing I know of that someone's used the XL on.







 
Shane's caution is valid as many outside items constructed like this rely more on friction at the joints that the glue. It is therefore necessary to have fairly hefty joints - perhaps beyond the DF700's capability. However...

In some circumstances (you or a structural engineer must decide) extra wide dominos may help. You can also make extra thick dominos as well.

The other consideration (again, you or a structural engineer must decide) is that the design of the porch can help. It is often possible to have some or all of the joints made in a structurally stable way.

I have very few pictures of the construction of my barn but I had to design it in such a way. Most of the timbers are 2x4 and I would, if building another, use the DF700 without hesitation.

Peter
 
i am no engineer but those dominoes looked disproportionate to that project. i was hoping the "test" video would be some kind of shear strength test.
 
I agree with Duburban. The size of the beams and two small Domino's, I don't want to be under them in a really bad storm. There's a reason Japanese temples are still standing after hundreds of years, really good joinery. Also a couple of screw's to toe nail the beams is still not good enough. I would be surprised if the building inspector passes the construction method. A structural engineer needs to look at the method and see if it will hold up. I looked but there is no data on the shear strength of Beech Wood Domino's. Now if the wood for the Domino's is different you still need to do shear testing to see when it will give out. I did find that one test from FWW showed the Domino failed at a peek load of 597 pounds. Now that was the typical test of one upright piece and the jointed piece glued & joined like you would a corner for a frame and the load on the cross piece. Most tests are only done that way and I have never seen a test that really shows the load it takes to break a tenon across the flat portion and at the same time any twist or racking.
Maye it will work out okay and someone can come up with some valid engineering on the joint, I sure would be interested in the numbers.
 
Hoosierkid said:
I'm having trouble believing no one has tried or argued it yet.  Very little internet search results.  I have strength tested it by butt jointing it with 4, 140mm tenons and putting 300lbs on the end of a 6ft peice.  It held fine and I amagine it would do better if it was pinned as the guy from half inch shy suggests.  Very scientific indeed.

LoL. I have a domino XL and it's cord is still rapped up  [embarassed] not even plugged it in yet.

So I can't comment on its strength but saying this I dont think it will b a problem on a average size porch especially with the gallow brackets I dont see it being a problem.

I have done gallow brackets and just housed in 10mm no tenon as most the time gallow brackets on a avarage size porch are more for decorative then structural  don't get me wrong they do make it more solid but just housing them in slightly it can't come out and it does it's job so a domino XL will be more than good enough especially cedar.  If your using oak I would say no moves way to much.

Jmb

 
Was on my ipad before had low battery so didnt watch the videos above untill now. 

[eek] [eek] [eek] I cant see a structural engineer in the uk passing that method of jointing the beam.  I know I wouldnt pass it my self and im no engineer. 

The only reaaon it would pass is because hes using structural screws.  The Domino is more just for aligning not for strength the screw will be doing the structural part and the dominos are just doing the aligning part.

I think I will do a few actual tests with my Domino NOT using a structural screw to see how strong 2 Dominos actually are.  Do a jumping test see how hard I need to jump for them to break.  [big grin]

JMB

 
tbear said:
I agree with Duburban. The size of the beams and two small Domino's, I don't want to be under them in a really bad storm. There's a reason Japanese temples are still standing after hundreds of years, really good joinery. Also a couple of screw's to toe nail the beams is still not good enough. I would be surprised if the building inspector passes the construction method. A structural engineer needs to look at the method and see if it will hold up. I looked but there is no data on the shear strength of Beech Wood Domino's. Now if the wood for the Domino's is different you still need to do shear testing to see when it will give out. I did find that one test from FWW showed the Domino failed at a peek load of 597 pounds. Now that was the typical test of one upright piece and the jointed piece glued & joined like you would a corner for a frame and the load on the cross piece. Most tests are only done that way and I have never seen a test that really shows the load it takes to break a tenon across the flat portion and at the same time any twist or racking.
Maye it will work out okay and someone can come up with some valid engineering on the joint, I sure would be interested in the numbers.

+1.  That concept looks fine for alignment, but watching the videos make my gut crawl for the lack of a properly housed mortise and tenon joint to support the purlins.  I'd have hoped he would have had a structural engineer sign off on that kind of joinery before going ahead with the project. 

[sad]
 
The jump test is possibly not an accurate test either.  If my 135 #' is doing the jumping, I would not be too impressed with the quality of the impact.  There are those who may be on board the FOG who are more than double my weight.  for them to do the jumping might be overkill for certain constuctions.

When ever i bought scaffold planks (Mason contractor so planks needed to have some flex but not break qualities) I would specify what their use and that if not of good enough strength, i would send them back.  For planking, i used only spruce, as it had the qualities need for the heavy loading and they were lighter weight than D-fir.  When delivery was made, i would tell the driver I was going to unload by myself and would check each and every plank.  If they did not meet my test, the entire load was going back. 

My test? First i would check for knots.  If there were knots (in spruce planks, there were almost always a few knots, but some i knew from experience were ok while others could be dangerous.)  The ones I considered to be dngerous were either put aside for return or, if the driver siad they were ok, I would tell him either they go back or i test hem.  If they did not meet my test, he had to either take them back or do whatever he liked with them.  I would place one end of a plank on the ground and the other on the truck body.  I would them jump up and down at the center of the span.  If the plank held up, it was good to stay.  If it did not hold up, it was the driver's problem. In the days when i was masoning, i was considerable better shape than i am now and weighed in at about 155 #'s.  I would jump three times.  The first time I did this, I did break a couple of planks and told the driver to take the whole load back

About an hour later, the owner of the biz called me on the site phone.  he was melting the phone lines, but after about five minutes of his yelling, and my, of course, verrryyy calm speaking  ::) ,we finally arrived at an understanding.  I never, in the next thirty or so years, got another bad load of spruce planking from that company.

A few years later, i was working for a builder who did outweigh me by nearly 2x (nearly 300#') my weight.  My help was unlaoding some of my planks that had been around a while and even tho covered with cement, were still strong.  Every time we loaded, either I, or my site foreman, would test the planks or, if obvios problems, would shorten for odd job use or go into the form lumber pile.  When my helper arrived of the site with the load of scaffold lumber, the nearly 300# builder told him the planks need to be tested.  My helper told him I had already tested them to my satisfaction.  The builder said he had to be sure and set each end of a plank on a saw horse, climbed up to the middle of the plank and jumped just .  i don't think any 2x10 (the size of spruce planking) could have stood that punishment and of course, each plank snapped.  Needless to say, the builder and i had a few words about that little episode.

It does make a little difference who is doing the jumping [scratch chin]
Tinker
 
jmbfestool said:
Was on my ipad before had low battery so didnt watch the videos above untill now. 

[eek] [eek] [eek] I cant see a structural engineer in the uk passing that method of jointing the beam.   I know I wouldnt pass it my self and im no engineer. 

The only reaaon it would pass is because hes using structural screws.  The Domino is more just for aligning not for strength the screw will be doing the structural part and the dominos are just doing the aligning part.

I think I will do a few actual tests with my Domino NOT using a structural screw to see how strong 2 Dominos actually are.   Do a jumping test see how hard I need to jump for them to break.  [big grin]

JMB

Do the test!!! orient them vertical and horizontal to see if it makes a difference. I'm hoping there was a real floor system above the perlins in the above video.
 
Sparktrician said:
tbear said:
I agree with Duburban. The size of the beams and two small Domino's, I don't want to be under them in a really bad storm. There's a reason Japanese temples are still standing after hundreds of years, really good joinery. Also a couple of screw's to toe nail the beams is still not good enough. I would be surprised if the building inspector passes the construction method. A structural engineer needs to look at the method and see if it will hold up. I looked but there is no data on the shear strength of Beech Wood Domino's. Now if the wood for the Domino's is different you still need to do shear testing to see when it will give out. I did find that one test from FWW showed the Domino failed at a peek load of 597 pounds. Now that was the typical test of one upright piece and the jointed piece glued & joined like you would a corner for a frame and the load on the cross piece. Most tests are only done that way and I have never seen a test that really shows the load it takes to break a tenon across the flat portion and at the same time any twist or racking.
Maye it will work out okay and someone can come up with some valid engineering on the joint, I sure would be interested in the numbers.

+1.  That concept looks fine for alignment, but watching the videos make my gut crawl for the lack of a properly housed mortise and tenon joint to support the purlins.  I'd have hoped he would have had a structural engineer sign off on that kind of joinery before going ahead with the project. 

[sad]

I didn't watch all of the video so maybe they explained more that I missed.  Without knowing the full construction of the project we can only speculate as to the load the purlins are carrying, if any.  I wouldn't be surprised if they were only decorative.

I don't know the contractor in the videos but I'll assume this isn't his first rodeo.  If he is comfortable using the XL then there is probably good logic and years of experience behind his decision.  That said, I too an curious to see some test data.   
 
Tinker said:
The jump test is possibly not an accurate test either.  If my 135 #' is doing the jumping, I would not be too impressed with the quality of the impact.  There are those who may be on board the FOG who are more than double my weight.  for them to do the jumping might be overkill for certain constuctions.

When ever i bought scaffold planks (Mason contractor so planks needed to have some flex but not break qualities) I would specify what their use and that if not of good enough strength, i would send them back.  For planking, i used only spruce, as it had the qualities need for the heavy loading and they were lighter weight than D-fir.  When delivery was made, i would tell the driver I was going to unload by myself and would check each and every plank.  If they did not meet my test, the entire load was going back. 

My test? First i would check for knots.  If there were knots (in spruce planks, there were almost always a few knots, but some i knew from experience were ok while others could be dangerous.)  The ones I considered to be dngerous were either put aside for return or, if the driver siad they were ok, I would tell him either they go back or i test hem.  If they did not meet my test, he had to either take them back or do whatever he liked with them.  I would place one end of a plank on the ground and the other on the truck body.  I would them jump up and down at the center of the span.  If the plank held up, it was good to stay.  If it did not hold up, it was the driver's problem. In the days when i was masoning, i was considerable better shape than i am now and weighed in at about 155 #'s.  I would jump three times.  The first time I did this, I did break a couple of planks and told the driver to take the whole load back

About an hour later, the owner of the biz called me on the site phone.  he was melting the phone lines, but after about five minutes of his yelling, and my, of course, verrryyy calm speaking  ::) ,we finally arrived at an understanding.  I never, in the next thirty or so years, got another bad load of spruce planking from that company.

A few years later, i was working for a builder who did outweigh me by nearly 2x (nearly 300#') my weight.  My help was unlaoding some of my planks that had been around a while and even tho covered with cement, were still strong.  Every time we loaded, either I, or my site foreman, would test the planks or, if obvios problems, would shorten for odd job use or go into the form lumber pile.  When my helper arrived of the site with the load of scaffold lumber, the nearly 300# builder told him the planks need to be tested.  My helper told him I had already tested them to my satisfaction.  The builder said he had to be sure and set each end of a plank on a saw horse, climbed up to the middle of the plank and jumped just .  i don't think any 2x10 (the size of spruce planking) could have stood that punishment and of course, each plank snapped.  Needless to say, the builder and i had a few words about that little episode.

It does make a little difference who is doing the jumping [scratch chin]
Tinker

Never said my tests would be proper. But if the dominos break when I jump on them then they are defiantly not strong enough!

Then I'll ask some one to jump with me then another another until they break i will keep going until it breaks. 

I would NEVER think one person jumping no mater how heavy they are would be a good enough test crazy for you to think that.

I would expect a minimum off four people jumping atth same time at least before I'm even remotely happy with it's structural strengh for something like floor joisting using 2 dominos.

Jmb

 
The purlins in that project were decorative from what I was told and were not load bearing. The Dominos were used primarily for alignment.
 
Shane Holland said:
The purlins in that project were decorative from what I was told and were not load bearing. The Dominos were used primarily for alignment.

Yay like I said [big grin]
 
Never said my tests would be proper. But if the dominos break when I jump on them then they are defiantly not strong enough!

Then I'll ask some one to jump with me then another another until they break i will keep going until it breaks. 

I would NEVER think one person jumping no mater how heavy they are would be a good enough test crazy for you to think that.

I would expect a minimum off four people jumping atth same time at least before I'm even remotely happy with it's structural strengh for something like floor joisting using 2 dominos.

Jmb

[/quote]

Sounds good to me JMB.  Put the heaviest guy closest to the Domino ends
Tinker
 
Tinker said:
Never said my tests would be proper. But if the dominos break when I jump on them then they are defiantly not strong enough!

Then I'll ask some one to jump with me then another another until they break i will keep going until it breaks. 

I would NEVER think one person jumping no mater how heavy they are would be a good enough test crazy for you to think that.

I would expect a minimum off four people jumping atth same time at least before I'm even remotely happy with it's structural strengh for something like floor joisting using 2 dominos.

Jmb

Sounds good to me JMB.  Put the heaviest guy closest to the Domino ends
Tinker
[/quote]

That's me then  [unsure] (10stone) lol
 
=> DXL on 6x6 and 4x6 cedar for timber frame on a porch structure?

Alignment = yes.  Load bearing/structural integrity = no.

I've placed over 1000 14mm 120/130/140 with WestSystems Epoxy in outdoor projects.  I would not rely on it for anything like a load bearing application. Maybe when they introduce the XXL w/ 20x180 tenons...
 
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