Domino XL hits the US...

[Ken Nagrod]

You people are acting like crazy women during an 80% off shoe sale!

Don't knock each other over to get one.

[big grin]

 

[VictorL]

I'd say $1000.

Bingo!
Tom

I guess that would be a great marketing strategy -- many, many would decide to own both models.  [wink]

Crikey yes. $1000 and I'm in.

Yep! this is magic number. I do have DF-500, and will use it mostly. I need DF XL-700 like ADDITIONAL tool, not primary or single tool. Intro price for $660 for DF-500 set back in 2007 was VERY important  selling point. Ahh. and $200 for domino assortment systainer....

 

[andvari]

I used to occasionally shop at a place called Filene's Automatic Bargain Basement in Boston. The women's clothing section didn't have dressing rooms, nor were they needed because the women would just try the clothes on in the aisles.

The men's section had dressing rooms.

The worst was when they had the annual bridal gown sale. That day you really needed to avoid the place before noon.

Filene's calls it "the running of the brides". They camp out overnight to get a early jump, and the bride would bring a team of 'helpers' to scout out likely candidates.

http://www.filenesbasement.com/running-of-the-brides/

I never heard of team shopping before.

 

[John Stevens]

You can set the depth of cut to a minimum of 15mm and buy some of the long stock Festool will be selling to custom cut 8x30 Dominos.

It's nice that the XL can be used for 8x30 tenons, but I'm hot for it because it can bore an 8mm tenon straight through a leg or stile that's 2" wide!!!  Faster and easier to make through-M&T joints, baby!  I couldn't care less if they're only floating M&Ts and not traditional ones.

Regards,

John

 

[John Stevens]

Most people want to see the tenon all the way through, any issues blowing out the other side of the work piece?

In my experience with the DF500, no.  In fact, if you plunge slowly enough, you don't even need a backer board.

Regards,

John

 

[Kev]

Wow - that's just absolutely rude to every other sucker country on the planet - $1975 base in Oz and our dollar is buying about 1.09 US last I checked. So for equivalence I'm paying over $2100 for that same thing.

Festool just made me a very unhappy customer.

Good for you US guys, but sucking the blood out of the rest of the planet to subsidies US market penetration has got to stop NOW !

 

[RONWEN]

Wow - that's just absolutely rude to every other sucker country on the planet - $1975 base in Oz and our dollar is buying about 1.09 US last I checked. So for equivalence I'm paying over $2100 for that same thing.

Festool just made me a very unhappy customer.

Good for you US guys, but sucking the blood out of the rest of the planet to subsidies US market penetration has got to stop NOW !

Of course you realize that none of us has the slightest clue of what the selling price will be, just all wishful thinking on our part.  It might end up being $1675 or $1875 or who knows what...  [huh]

 

[woodguy7]

Calm down Kev  [poke].  [big grin]

 

[Kev]

Calm down Kev  [poke].  [big grin]

Perfectly calm - alway am ... but not particularly happy.

I can see what the world is driven by (even the Festool part) ... but sadly it doesn't make it right!

I have a lot of respect for the researchers, designers, engineers, manufacturers, quality control and support people. But as with most organisations ... the marketing and sales arms should be ... well ... I'm too polite to say.

 

[GreenGA]

Because I have done very little traditional M&T construction, here is a technical question for those more experienced than I.  [embarassed]

As John pointed out, the DF700 can bore an 8mm tenon straight through 2" wide material.  Would the fact that they are floating tenons, John's description, make them any weaker, or stronger, than a normal/traditional M&T connection of approximately the same dimension?

If so, why?  [huh]

It's nice that the XL can be used for 8x30 tenons, but I'm hot for it because it can bore an 8mm tenon straight through a leg or stile that's 2" wide!!!  Faster and easier to make through-M&T joints, baby!  I couldn't care less if they're only floating M&Ts and not traditional ones.

John

 

[VictorL]

Because I have done very little traditional M&T construction, here is a technical question for those more experienced than I.  [embarassed]

As John pointed out, the DF700 can bore an 8mm tenon straight through 2" wide material.  Would the fact that they are floating tenons, John's description, make them any weaker, or stronger, than a normal/traditional M&T connection of approximately the same dimension?

If so, why?  [huh]

It's nice that the XL can be used for 8x30 tenons, but I'm hot for it because it can bore an 8mm tenon straight through a leg or stile that's 2" wide!!!  Faster and easier to make through-M&T joints, baby!  I couldn't care less if they're only floating M&Ts and not traditional ones.

John

Did not get it either. 70mm deep is 2 4/5" so you can cut through 2 3/4" stock.  8mm is the smallest bit, but there are 10mm (3/8") 12mm (1/2") and 14mm bits.

 

[RONWEN]

My question, are all of the XL700 bits capable of the 70mm depth or are they (as with the 500) of various lengths?  e.g. the 4mm bit is half the length of the others.

 

[keithjfuji1439]

My question, are all of the XL700 bits capable of the 70mm depth or are they (as with the 500) of various lengths?  e.g. the 4mm bit is half the length of the others.

The 8mm cutter is "only" capable of 50mm depth. The 10, 12 and 14mm cutters are 70mm.

 

[RussellS]

As John pointed out, the DF700 can bore an 8mm tenon straight through 2" wide material.  Would the fact that they are floating tenons, John's description, make them any weaker, or stronger, than a normal/traditional M&T connection of approximately the same dimension?

The loose tenons could be a fraction of a fraction of less than 1% less strong than a traditional tenon.  With the traditional tenon the tenon is part of the wood with the grain running the same direction.  With the loose tenon the tenon is glued into both pieces of wood.  Grain does not match.  So in theory it could be less strong.  But glue is actually stronger than the wood, so it would not be much less strong.  The problem with all the way through loose tenons is that the wood is a different species.  Its a beech loose tenon.  While the wood you are using is cherry, walnut, oak, maple, etc.  So the Domino loose tenons won't match too well if they are a loose tenon.  Concealed loose tenons, no problem.  Exposed through tenons, wood won't match.

 

[andvari]

Some third party outfit sells an item "Tuffer Tenons" that are supposed to be Domino compatible in a variety of wood species - oak maple etc.

I haven't tried them, but perhaps they would be more suitable in through tenon designs.

 

[Rick Christopherson]

My question, are all of the XL700 bits capable of the 70mm depth or are they (as with the 500) of various lengths?  e.g. the 4mm bit is half the length of the others.

I hadn't noticed it until Keith mentioned it, but the shank on the 8mm bit does have a shorter shoulder location. This will limit the depth to about 50mm. Unlike the 4mm cutter, all of the DF700 cutters are the same overall length.

 

[GreenGA]

So, leaving aside differences in wood species because of color and grain orientation when using a through tenon, the resultant connection would be almost the same.???

As John pointed out, the DF700 can bore an 8mm tenon straight through 2" wide material.  Would the fact that they are floating tenons, John's description, make them any weaker, or stronger, than a normal/traditional M&T connection of approximately the same dimension?

The loose tenons could be a fraction of a fraction of less than 1% less strong than a traditional tenon.  With the traditional tenon the tenon is part of the wood with the grain running the same direction.  With the loose tenon the tenon is glued into both pieces of wood.  Grain does not match.  So in theory it could be less strong.  But glue is actually stronger than the wood, so it would not be much less strong.  The problem with all the way through loose tenons is that the wood is a different species.  Its a beech loose tenon.  While the wood you are using is cherry, walnut, oak, maple, etc.  So the Domino loose tenons won't match too well if they are a loose tenon.  Concealed loose tenons, no problem.  Exposed through tenons, wood won't match.

 

[stairman]

So who is going to use this to make window sashes and wooden storm windows?

Most people want to see the tenon all the way through, any issues blowing out the other side of the work piece?

I don't really see the XL as a jobsite tool, which correlates with my, I can get a mortiser and tenoner for about what the XL would cost.

I beg to differ.  I'll begin assembling 2 stairs with it next week,  12mm dominos for treads and 4x14mm for ea newel.  Once I finish milling the handrails and fittings, I'll use it with the handrail fence to join handrail parts.
there's no guessing about it, it WILL save a lot of time while providing a better product,  -but that's what Festool is all about  (& I need not mention the part about looking a lot better while doing it  :)

 

[Rick Christopherson]

  Would the fact that they are floating tenons, John's description, make them any weaker, or stronger, than a normal/traditional M&T connection of approximately the same dimension?

Floating tenon is the correct term, and it just means that the tenon joint is comprised of 3 members instead of two. With all other things being equal, unless the tenon length into the parallel grain is short, there is no difference in strength. With all things NOT being equal, sometimes a floating tenon like Domino can actually be stronger. Specifically, instead of a single wide tenon, there would be several smaller tenons with a web of material in between them. This remaining web of material keeps the two joining pieces stronger. Of course you can do the same thing with a traditional tenon. Another thing that improves the strength of a Domino tenon joint is how tight the mortise and tenon fit together. When the DF500 first came out, a lot of people complained about how tight the tenons fit, but didn't realize that this is what made them so good. Glue by itself has no strength. It is only the close contact of the joining surfaces with the glue, that makes a glue joint stronger than the surrounding wood.

 

[Rembo]

  Would the fact that they are floating tenons, John's description, make them any weaker, or stronger, than a normal/traditional M&T connection of approximately the same dimension?

Floating tenon is the correct term, and it just means that the tenon joint is comprised of 3 members instead of two. With all other things being equal, unless the tenon length into the parallel grain is short, there is no difference in strength. With all things NOT being equal, sometimes a floating tenon like Domino can actually be stronger. Specifically, instead of a single wide tenon, there would be several smaller tenons with a web of material in between them. This remaining web of material keeps the two joining pieces stronger. Of course you can do the same thing with a traditional tenon. Another thing that improves the strength of a Domino tenon joint is how tight the mortise and tenon fit together. When the DF500 first came out, a lot of people complained about how tight the tenons fit, but didn't realize that this is what made them so good. Glue by itself has no strength. It is only the close contact of the joining surfaces with the glue, that makes a glue joint stronger than the surrounding wood.

I conducted an experiment with homemade spikes. this is what came of it ..