Down with the old & Up with the new

[Michael Kellough]

Looks like plenty of extra space for lightweight storage above. Gonna be a nice sized shop.

 

[Cheese]

Cheese,

Looks like you're making great progress! I'm curious what you have planned for your insulated wall assembly?

I'm in the Minnetonka area with an existing 28' x 26' space. Original walls were 2x4, I've furred them out to 2x6 depth, currently working on installing R-21 mineral wool batts in the walls, and am working with the local code enforcement official on identifying an appropriate peel-and-stick membrane to use in conjunction with TimberBoard exterior insulation. Really excited to finally see these exterior wood fiber insulation products find their way to North America, looking forward to incorporating them into my remodeling process.

You had mentioned metal working tools, are those just high amperage single phase machines or will you be installing a phase converter for three phase?

Hi Tom...this garage is all 2x6 construction as it was only $350 more than standard 2x4 materials. Like you, I learned the hard way when I turned our house attic into the master bedroom and decided to furr it out to 2x6 for insulation reasons...what a picky, picky process.

If you don't take your time and be patient, once you cut corners and "just" drywall it, the wall just waves at you. Patience is the key.

I'm looking at R-21 in the walls and R-30 or R-38 for the ceiling. I just need to measure the trusses. This Timber-Batt you've referred to looks interesting. It really looks like something the Europeans have already embraced. I noticed the photo of the Festool IS 240.  [smile]

I'm curious on your thoughts about the Timber-Batt.

I have a long history with using aluminum backed Celotex...don't even know if that stuff is still available. At the time it was R-12 for 1" foam insulation. I used a ton of it in the bedroom loft and am quite satisfied with the results.

You lost me on the Peel-and Stick membrane though. Is that an outside or inside product?

The current metal working tools are all single phase but you never know what the future brings. I opted for 200 amp service because of the flexibility it presents. It's also a buried service in a 3" pvc conduit so if I need to upgrade that's also "relatively" simple.

 

[Tom the Remodeler]

Hi Cheese,

Yup, bumping from 2x4 to 2x6 construction certainly isn't optimal. I wound up furring out each stud with a 50mm board, if I could do it all over again I would have run 2x4s flat, horizontally, this would reduce thermal bridging, reduce the worst effects of warped studs, and would allow for easier panel installation. Oh well....

In terms of wall/ceiling coverings, I'm using 1/2" Birch plywood ripped to 400mm x 8' dimensions, installed with FastCap Powerhead screws (counterbored so they sit flush with the face of the plywood), 6mm gap between the panels. For the ceiling panels, I applied Rubio SuperWhite, it helps to brighten up the ceiling, adds a small amount of sheen, but you can still see the wood grain. It makes for a nice utilitarian space, and if you need to access something in the walls/ceiling you just need to back out a handful of screws.

This was an existing structure, and the previous owner had installed plywood on top of the bottom chord of the roof trusses. For the short term, I stuffed fiberglass batts in between the trusses, supported by foil faced iso foam boards taped to the trusses. Long term, the plan is to blow a ~R50 into the attic space, just need to sort out whether to use cellulose or the TimberHP product, and need to find/make the time. Attic chutes are already in place.

I haven't used the TimberBatt, but I'm terribly curious about it.

For the TimberBoard, yes this kind of product have been in use in Europe for decades and it seems really sensible to me. I'll be in Germany next Spring to attend Fensterbau-Frontale and Holz-Handwerk, I'm looking forward to asking around about best-practices and feedback on what they're using over there.

For the wall assembly, I'm planning on using the sequence detailed in Figure 6.18 of Joe Lstiburek's "Builder's Guide to Cold Climates" (2022 revision).

In a nutshell, it's a normal 2x6 light frame construction wall, but NO interior plastic layer. The air/water/wind control layer is a fully adhered peel and stick membrane applied the exterior face of the wall sheathing (instead of Tyvek or tarpaper). The membrane must be vapor-open. Outboard of the membrane is a layer of exterior insulation (rigid mineral wool, rigid fiberglass, rigid wood fiber, must be vapor-open), then furring strips, then your siding. The thickness of the exterior insulation is driven by the stud cavity insulation, and is explained on Chart 4.1.

The idea with this assembly is that you're keeping the inside face of the structural sheathing above the dew point, with an ability to dry to the interior of the space. All elements to the exterior of the peel-and-stick membrane dry to the outside.

I highly recommend the book, and there are diferent versions for different climate zones (Hot-Humid, Hot-Dry, Mixed-Humid, Marine, etc....).

Good call on the 200A service. On the other FOG there's a few users trying to sort out how to get 600A to their shops (typically related to running a WBS and associated equipment), but for a one-person shop I think 200A is reasonable. If you ever get into three phase don't hesitate to reach out, I've been running a Phase Technology PT010 phase converter for a few years now and I love it, runs a 7.5kW machine plus a 3kW dust extractor with room to spare.

If you don't mind sharing the builder who's framing up your garage (offline) that'd be great, I have several clients asking about garages but I'm trying to stay in the Shop these days...

Congrats again on your new space, looking forward to seeing you put it to good use!

 

[FestitaMakool]

Wow, what a tedious job with insulation of the concrete blocks. However, nicely done [smile]

[member=2726]Tom Gensmer[/member] too:
I’m using the TimberBatt, well in our version, it looks the same. Usually in new builds there’s the regular mineral wool. However my reason is restoring and remodelling an old house with none real chance of adding the mandatory plastic foiling inside and the breathable windstopper outside. Reason is that the TimberBatt is absorbing any condensation thus not drain condensed water down to the horizontal framing..(and releases the moisture slowly too) which mineral based insulation will do if not near airtight sealed wall. On the plus side: The wood based insulation is a dream to work with: No itching, nice smell and is fairly easy to handle.

I think you have too: Bitumen impregnated boards for wind proofing and moisture resistant 1/2” thick. This is also what I use, as it also have breathable qualities, which are what any skilled carpenters advise of when restoring old buildings without complete tear down to the bone..

If you have the chance Cheese, check pricing and recommendations if you still have time.
(Though your building new.. and can “easily” follow regulations and recommendations)

 

[Cheese]

Wow, what a tedious job with insulation of the concrete blocks. However, nicely done [smile]

[member=2726]Tom Gensmer[/member] too:
I’m using the TimberBatt, well in our version, it looks the same. Usually in new builds there’s the regular mineral wool. However my reason is restoring and remodelling an old house with none real chance of adding the mandatory plastic foiling inside and the breathable windstopper outside. Reason is that the TimberBatt is absorbing any condensation thus not drain condensed water down to the horizontal framing..(and releases the moisture slowly too) which mineral based insulation will do if not near airtight sealed wall. On the plus side: The wood based insulation is a dream to work with: No itching, nice smell and is fairly easy to handle.

I think you have too: Bitumen impregnated boards for wind proofing and moisture resistant 1/2” thick. This is also what I use, as it also have breathable qualities, which are what any skilled carpenters advise of when restoring old buildings without complete tear down to the bone..

If you have the chance Cheese, check pricing and recommendations if you still have time.
(Though your building new.. and can “easily” follow regulations and recommendations)

Hmmm, this is an interesting discussion point and would welcome any input from those who've had first hand experience with this matter.

 

[Cheese]

So this update is about going back a few days when the trusses had to be dropped in the alley and then manually carried to the job site. A major inconvenience but according to the project manager a daily situation for him. He said it's all about urban sprawl and the need to go vertical because horizontal is no longer an option in the city.

I remember an existing garage being demo-ed last year on a small city lot a block away and a new garage being constructed in its stead. I was consumed with how they'd actually be able to side the garage because they were so close to the lot lines. The solution...hire a 140# kid that could burrow himself into a mouse hole. Seriously, it was a pretty interesting solution and a testimony to the "You gotta wanta mantra".

So when the trusses were delivered, the project manager stopped by and made the call to drop the trusses in the alley as he said that any further maneuvering in the alley would only damage the trees.

He made a call and summoned 3 additional helpers to move the trusses to the job-site. What's obvious...is this also shut down the work that was being done on the 3 other job sites. Just part of project management but it does graphically emphasize the impact of a seemingly necessary call for help and the impact it has on all of the ancillary issues that need to be addressed.

[attachimg=1]

[attachimg=2]

 

[Cheese]

So that was Friday...what a difference a day makes.  [big grin]

So these guys show up on Saturday around 1:00...and this is what it looks like.

[attachimg=1]

Well 3-1/2 hours later this is now what it looks like with a crew of 3 people.

[attachimg=2]

[attachimg=3]

[attachimg=4]

[attachimg=5]

 

[bobtskutter]

This is looking fantastic.
Why does the OSB on the outside surface appear to be in roughly 2' x 2' sections with sealant between the boards, but the inside surface appears to be 8x4 sheets?

Just curious...

Thanks
Bob

 

[rvieceli]

[member=76043]bobtskutter[/member] Those lines are inked on at the factory in standard US framing spacing and act as fastener guides when attaching. Lines go both along the length and the width causing the squares so depending on how you orient the rectangle (horizontal or vertical) you have the nailing guides lining up.

Ron

 

[bobtskutter]

That's a great idea!

Thanks for clearing that up.
Regards
Bob

 

[Michael Kellough]

Those guys are fast!

What is on the studs on the left side of the garage door opening? Looks like Sheetrock.

 

[Cheese]

Why does the OSB on the outside surface appear to be in roughly 2' x 2' sections with sealant between the boards, but the inside surface appears to be 8x4 sheets?

Also, to add to what Ron said, those marks are for both 16"OC & 24"OC.

[attachimg=1]

 

[Cheese]

Those guys are fast!

What is on the studs on the left side of the garage door opening? Looks like Sheetrock.

A form of it...[big grin]...that's a designated firewall so both sides of the studs need to be covered with 5/8" gypsum board. The exterior stuff has a wax-treated, water resistant core and is faced on both sides with a water repellent paper.

 

[Cheese]

On Sunday the same crew of 3 arrived around 8:00 AM. Through a combination of dead lifting along with using leverage and then sliding, all of the trusses were set in place.

[attachimg=1]

[attachimg=2]

[attachimg=3]

At 5:00 PM this is what it looked like.

[attachimg=4]

 

[FestitaMakool]

Wow! This is faaaast building Cheese  [big grin]

Those line markings on the OSB’s was clever.. I’m doing it manually.. well, it’s also an old building so the “new” standard spacing wouldn’t have worked anyway…

I also liked the temporary lumber rack inside!

Judging by the photo, I think your neighbour, you.. have stolen your neighbour’s, yours.. view [scared]
It’s enormous in comparison to the old.. but that loft looks like a small one room apartment..
You’ll move in with the stereo and the MC and woodworking downstairs?  [big grin]

 

[Michael Kellough]

The varied spacing of the trusses is to accommodate roof sheathing?

I see two trusses are moved over a couple inches.
I guess if all the “slack” was taken out by moving just one truss the span between trusses would be too much and you’d have to consider buying an additional truss or nailing a bunch of blocking? A couple sheets of plywood waste must cost a lot less.

 

[Cheese]

The varied spacing of the trusses is to accommodate roof sheathing?

I see two trusses are moved over a couple inches.
I guess if all the “slack” was taken out by moving just one truss the span between trusses would be too much and you’d have to consider buying an additional truss or nailing a bunch of blocking? A couple sheets of plywood waste must cost a lot less.

Wow... [not worthy] ...you're pretty darn observant Michael.  [cool]

Actually, the additional truss spacing is needed to sandwich in a couple of 30" wide skylights.

I originally had 3 Velux skylights left over from some previous projects. Two of the skylights were GGL style which means the opening handle is at the very top of the opening. Unfortunately where these skylights needed to be placed on the roof, the handles were too high to reach without standing on something. At that point they became nothing more than non-venting skylights.  [sad]

So, I decided to purchase a new Velux that matches the other one I already have and I gifted the GGL models to the local Habitat for Humanity.

 

[Michael Kellough]

Skylights! A much better reason.

Your garage has the potential to be a nice home.

 

[Cheese]

I also liked the temporary lumber rack inside!

That innocent lumber rack turned out to also be a work table, look closely and you can see the layout of one of the stair stringers along with some of the treads...pretty clever.

[attachimg=1]

 

[Cheese]

I plan on insulating the footings with 2" foam board left over from the in-floor heat project. So I spent a few hours yesterday smoothing out the cement with the AGC 18 and a diamond wheel. My original intent was to use the corded 12 amp Milwaukee 6156-20 RA grinder as that's my go-to item because of the power. However, I decided to try out the AGC 18 and see how that would perform.

Well, 5 battery changes later and 3 of the footing sides were completed. Pretty stoked about the Festool offering, it's smoother and quieter than the Milwaukee, has the equivalent grunt of the Milwaukee and it's cordless. I would have been dragging the cord through cement dust, mud and water which would then need to be given a bath. When I was finished I simply took the leaf blower and blew off the grinder and the 5 batteries.

Here's some before & after photos.

[attachimg=1]

[attachimg=2]

[attachimg=3]

[attachimg=4]

[attachimg=5]