Down with the old & Up with the new

[rmwarren]

[member=44099]Cheese[/member] I had the exact same saw, it met it's demise with a similar bang. I was cutting 1"11 gauge box at 45 and made the mistake of just trimming off an end that left a small drop. The blade caught the drop and pulled it up into the guard, bending the blade and breaking the guard and return spring. Scared the begezzus outa me.

Any chance you are similarly lifting up the drop off?

RMW

 

[Cheese]

[member=44099]Cheese[/member] I had the exact same saw, it met it's demise with a similar bang. I was cutting 1"11 gauge box at 45 and made the mistake of just trimming off an end that left a small drop. The blade caught the drop and pulled it up into the guard, bending the blade and breaking the guard and return spring. Scared the begezzus outa me.

Any chance you are similarly lifting up the drop off?

RMW

Maybe you're on to something Richard.  [smile]  This Milwaukee cold saw sits about 8" away from a very similar Milwaukee abrasive chop saw and thus the saw beds are the same height. So, longer off-cuts are supported by the chop saw bed while short off-cuts are not.

Now for the mystery part, I made 6 cuts with 18" off-cuts supported and I had 1 bang.  [sad]
I made another 6 cuts with 4" off-cuts unsupported and I had 2 bangs. Those inconsistencies confuse me.

I actually considered securing both ends of the material even though in woodworking that's a big no-no.

 

[rst]

As a commercial glazier. I cut tall sortsto metal, thick and thin. I always cut angle with one flat leg down, other leg against rear stop.  Thin pieces get supported under and over to protect the material..  Also tooth count matters

 

[FestitaMakool]

1. I live in a very cold climate, at least during winter. In the more extreme I’ve noticed on concrete footings there might be 4” foam. But on garages usually 2”. They seek to burry it as low as possible, and even a strip at a slope below lowest level to hinder the frost to travel further down and in.
2. As I did now, we (some) do footings in a material called Leca. It’s clay balls bound with concrete. Incredibly strong and since it has a lot of trapped air cavities it does also insulate very well.
Then, we tend to back fill with gravel or Leca in fluid form, covering with breathing cloth material to prevent soil to drain and mix in. This leaves the area around the footing to breathe, drain water and even insulate further.

3. Love the shiny corner protections - a Cheese expected treat  [big grin]. Still, you know they won’t disintegrate  [wink].

4. I’m curious how they solve the cladding. We make sure that any water ingress behind the cladding is secured by boards and bitumen/asphalt based flexible “foil” lead with overlap at every junction leading the water out from the wall, as low as over any footings and foam boards. This does also wind proof.

5. Love the dogs! They do look very alike.. even the expression of a happy face  [smile]

Festita you've brought up some very interesting questions.  [smile]  Too many I may add.  [big grin]

1. As the winter is starting to set in, the grade around the footings is what it is until spring, the downward sloping foam board sections to prevent frost being driven further into the ground are interesting. I have 4 months to noodle on that suggestion/improvement. Renting a Toro Dingo for a day would take care of that situation.  [big grin] Curious how far that sloped foam board needs to project from the footings?

2. Leca...I'm clueless but interested, the Europeans always seem to have a head-start on some of these newer techniques/materials.

3. Ya, 18 gauge stainless corners aren't going anywhere. I actually wanted 20 gauge but couldn't find a source.

4. I don't quite follow the cladding discussion, my assumption is that the OSB will be covered with Tyvek or the equivalent before the siding is applied.

When I resided the house with clear, vertical grain cedar bevel siding, I was told Tyvek and cedar didn't play well together so I used the old standby...asphaltic felt.

The garage will be using Hardieplank bevel siding so Tyvek shouldn't be a problem. Probably just another up-charge.  [blink]

5. The dogs...what more needs to be said? The maintenance costs are high but the ROI is incredible...a person couldn't ask for more pure joy.

1. I think it depends on the climate, usually on houses we dig deep, or fill with great depth of gravel. I’ve seen from 10” to 40”. Gravel, LECA or anything that leaves air pockets and drain well around the slab and footings. Air insulates too. How many days with below zero, and how cold do you usually see in a winter?

2. I think [member=3192]rvieceli[/member] nailed it..  [smile] Those balls can also be pressed into what we call “Lightweight concrete blocks” In short: LECA blocks. They do insulate like a thick (8”) timber framed wall.

About the cladding, yep - Tyvek is used here, expensive and fast fixed. I think the latter is why builders wants to use it [wink]. And yes, asphalt felt, asphalt boards (Those made from wood Fiber and treated with asphalt) is what I’m using. It apparently do insulate similar to 2” insulation too. Easy to work with, but certainly a lot more time consuming than laying Tyvek…

 

[FestitaMakool]

A real mishap on that stainless [eek].. even with the correct blade..
Good that you weren’t harmed!

I don’t know to much about cutting steel, but I learned a very long time ago to back it with scrap wood.. it’s ages since I’ve done it, but would a square stock that fits inside the L-profile hot glued or double sided to the stock (wood) work?
- I can see the danger of a small cut off piece of steel go ptwang!.. [blink]

 

[Cheese]

So, an additional part of this garage build story is to include underground electrical service. I've had a nasty relationship with the existing power pole and the connections to the house because of a tree that grows forever and continues to meddle with the electrical lines...news flash...that will always be the case.  [sad]

Several years ago I suddenly noticed that the incoming electrical leg voltage was swinging from 60 to 160 volts...that's definitely not a good thing. Long story short, the neighboring tree successfully interfered with the incoming electricity and created a floating ground that eventually took out a microwave, multiple ceiling fans, the computer isolation feed bar and several Festool battery chargers. Interestingly enough, the Milwaukee battery chargers were not affected, they continue to this day.  [big grin]

So to mitigate that issue the garage service will be buried in 3" pvc conduit, 24" deep. Even though we've had daily temps in the 40's to 50's, nightly temps are down in the upper 20's. Unknown to me, that's just enough to start driving frost into the ground. So when I decided to dig the trench for the conduit, there was already 8"-10" of frozen soil that a shovel would not penetrate.  [crying]

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I thought about igniting a couple of rows of charcoal on the surface to drive out the frost but decided that the Milwaukee rotary hammer with a wide blade might do the job instead.

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That actually worked extremely well. Once I got below the frost level which was 10" deep in places, the dirt was easily removed with a narrow spade. There were still small pockets of frost and a ton of tree roots to deal with but the Sawzall made quick work of both of those items. Cutting out the frost pockets was actually easier than taking the heavy rotary hammer to them. Sawzall...what would a person do if you didn't already own one? See my previous rant about that situation...still can't believe that it's an "optional" tool for demo.

I took these last two photos and was suddenly struck with this thought...this definitely was a "red tool day". From the tools themselves to the power cord, to the tape measure and even to the Thermapen to measure the soil temperature.

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[Cheese]

This is just an FYI...I've installed Arlington electrical boxes on the house exterior and am very happy with the results. Their claim to fame is that most of their depth is installed within the stud wall cavity so there is a minimum of the box that protrudes outside of the siding. I think maybe there's a 3/4" maximum protrusion from the siding. At that point they really become almost invisible.  [smile] 

When properly sealed & flashed, there is minimal, minimal, minimal chance for water intrusion. Here's a quick look at the install.

One more note...I absolutely HATE plastic electrical boxes and every box I install in the house or garage is a conventional metal box. I also don't nail the boxes onto the studs, rather I use screws instead which gives them a more secure purchase and prevents them from loosening up later on which can happen.

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[bobtskutter]

hehe I love the "red tool day" picture.  It's nice to see you've also included a "red / green tool combo photo".
How about one with yellow and blue just to cover all the bases?

I've use my SDS drill and 1" masonry drill to make air holes in the lawn (heavy clay and sunshine makes the ground very hard).

Regards
Bob

 

[rvieceli]

[member=44099]Cheese[/member] Is this a new drop and meter from your POCO?

Do they have the roof on yet? Are those nail spacings code required or are you paying them by the nail? [scared]

I like that box are they readily available or do you have to get them from Arlington?

thanks. Ron

 

[Cheese]

How about one with yellow and blue just to cover all the bases?

Regards
Bob

I'd love to help you out Bob but the only yellow I own is Stabila and Bostitch nail guns. The only Dewalt I own is a DW735 planer which resides in the basement although, thinking about that a little more, it may just end up in the garage at some point.  [smile]

The issue I've always had is room...to run a 10' board through it I need 22' of room.  [sad]

And blue...not a single blue tool.  [huh]

 

[Cheese]

[member=44099]Cheese[/member] 1. Is this a new drop and meter from your POCO?

2. Do they have the roof on yet?

3. Are those nail spacings code required or are you paying them by the nail? [scared]

4. I like that box are they readily available or do you have to get them from Arlington?

thanks. Ron

1. A new drop and meter...200A service.

2. Yes the roof and shingles have been on for about 3 weeks. The skylights were just installed last week.

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3. Not exactly code Ron...I think they're charging me by the nail.  [scared]

4. They've always been readily available, however when I recently stopped at Graybar, they're now special order. Same for Crescent Electric, Viking Electric and Zoro.  [mad] [mad]  So these boxes now became part of the critical path because the siders have arrived to install the Hardie. I found one at Amazon and am still waiting for the 2nd one to arrive from All Data Resource.
Who'd have thought something like this would screw things up?

 

[Packard]

Well, I was cutting the stainless corner protectors for the foam board insulation to length and towards the end of the project I became a bit lazy/anxious and fed the blade a bit too fast into the 304 stainless corner protectors...and heard a bang...that's never a good thing.  [smile]

Just look at those beavered edges and the less than 90º angles...not good.  [sad]

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I decided to check the condition of the saw blade and sure enough it was toast. Of the 90 teeth, 29 of them were damaged or missing. This is a major issue but I don't believe a 2 second lack of judgement on my part caused this catastrophic failure.

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The only thing I can trace this down to is that I was cutting some 440C round stock previously with this same blade and I'm wondering if because of its hardness, it was the culprit and it started to unravel the carbide blade chips dilemma?

I bought this bandsaw from Northern Tool on sale several years ago.  I probably paid about $250.00 on sale. 

No sparks or dust and the shavings fall directly below the cut.  A good option for chopping metal.

Northern Tool is an excellent vendor.  Their products are just a few dollars more than Harbor Freight but light years better.  They also sell branded products.  If you get on their mailing list, they will notify you about specials and those “specials” feature some really good prices on very nice stuff.
https://www.northerntool.com/produc...d-saw-5in-x-4-7-8in-400-watts-110-120v-101670

 

[RAW]

This is excellent. You won't regret the radiant heat. I did the same for my shop in Canada where we get minus 40 C. The Radiant floor is the only heat source and I'm very comfortable. What is most important to protect your investment is the correct wall assembly. I strongly suggest 2x6 construction, mineral wool vs Fiberglass (like Roxul), Blueskin VP100 building wrap, (do not use Tyvek or similar staple on product), 1" rigid insulation, strapping, and air space siding. You won't regret the comfort you will receive if you build the walls correctly. I should also add that in the summer people ask me why I air-conditioned the shop. I didn't, the envelope is so well designed that it stays cool all day long while the sun heats up everything else. The extra money you spend on the blue skin wrap will eliminate all micro air drafts between the substrate and exterior finish. The biggest mistake people make is believing that insulation is the most important element in a wall assembly. The building wrap is far more important than insulation as it controls the vapor transmission through the wall by eliminating the micro drafts caused by mechanically fastened Tyvek-style wraps. It will pay for itself in a couple of years of energy savings.

 

[Packard]

My friend put radiant in a seldom used room.  He complained that it took a long time to warm the room if you had set the thermostat down while it was not being used. 

He liked it because he said, “If your feet are warm, you feel warm.”

But still, he complained about how slowly it warmed up the room.

 

[Cheese]

My friend put radiant in a seldom used room.  He complained that it took a long time to warm the room if you had set the thermostat down while it was not being used. 

He liked it because he said, “If your feet are warm, you feel warm.”

But still, he complained about how slowly it warmed up the room.

Well unfortunately, your friend was operating from a common misconception.

Radiant heat is all about thermal mass and it takes a long time to heat the thermal mass and it also takes a long time to cool the thermal mass. So it's not like turning on a conventional furnace and receiving immediate warmth. That's not what it is. It's more like cooking beef brisket on the grill...low & slow. Use a minimal amount of heat but sustain it over a long period of time and the brisket turns out perfectly.  [smile]

Soapstone furnaces/fireplaces are another example of thermal mass heat release. You don't build a raging fire inside the fireplace, just a medium sized fire and the heat will be generated and the heat will be continuously radiated for 12-15 hours. Check out Tulikivi.
https://www.tulikivi.com/usa-can

I'll start with setting a floor temperature of 50º and see where that goes. The air temperature is supposed to feel 10º warmer than the floor temperature. The whole thing with thermal mass is once you put energy (heat) into it, don't shut it off, just modulate the heat input/output.

A common issue with radiant heat is when you open the garage door all of the heat that took hours to build-up, vanishes. If it's a busy garage then radiant heat may not be the best solution.

Some folks have added gas fired Reznor heaters or IR heaters to fill in the immediate need for additional heat when the garage door is opened. We'll see how that plays out.

The only instance where radiant heat can be instant on and instant off...relatively speaking, is if you're using it for staple-up applications for the underside of a floor. Again, that's because you're not heating thermal mass concrete but rather simple 3/4" plywood and wood flooring.

 

[bobtskutter]

What are you using for the heat generator?  Do you have a methane / LPG supply to the workshop?

If you're going to burn gas, may I suggest you look at a condensing boiler (furnace?) that can maintain a low water outlet temperature, e.g.  40C (104F).  That will maximise the efficiency and be a good fit for the underfloor heating.

Are you planning to have a blend valve and control the water temperature to the underfloor pipes?  That would allow you control a very low water temperature to the underfloor pipework.

Regards
Bob

 

[rmwarren]

My little stick framed and poorly insulated shop is heated with a 8 square foot 750 watt electric radiant overhead panel. The panel hangs overhead at 96" centered inside a 10' by 12' area. I keep it set at 40-something and only bump it up to 50 when in use, it's the most comfortable area on the property.

In the case of overhead radiant the thermal mass is everything in the space. Using an infrared thermometer to check, everything from the 3/4" ply floor thru the work surfaces and cabinets on the wall to bench tools measures within a degree or two of the set temp at all times.

I'll often leave the door open if the winds are not blowing in and the space remains comfortable all day. The heat radiating off all the mass doesn't drop noticeably.

RMW

 

[Packard]

So, if someone was using their shop just on weekends, would radiant heating be a good choice?  In that case, you would be paying to heat the room for 7 days and using it for 2 days.

I once tried explaining to a friend that a log cabin had no insulation value to speak of.  The logs were just heat sinks and they were slowly conducting the heat/cold.  That concept eluded him.

I always admired the Tulikivi soap stone stoves.  Aside from the high cost of the stove, it would have required expensive structural changes to deal with the weights.  But if you are building your shop on a slab, a really cool way to heat the shop and dispose of your scrap lumber.

 

[BarneyD]

When my brother built his house 45 years ago, he snaked some copper tubing before pouring the basement slab. He just uses a gas fired water heater with a 1/12 HP B&G circulating pump. Works great. The dog goes down to sleep on the basement floor. I wish had done the same when I poured the slab for my shop. I think you'll love it Cheese.

 

[Cheese]

What are you using for the heat generator?  Do you have a methane / LPG supply to the workshop?

If you're going to burn gas, may I suggest you look at a condensing boiler (furnace?) that can maintain a low water outlet temperature, e.g.  40C (104F).  That will maximise the efficiency and be a good fit for the underfloor heating.

Are you planning to have a blend valve and control the water temperature to the underfloor pipes?  That would allow you control a very low water temperature to the underfloor pipework.

Regards
Bob

The heat source is kind of a conundrum.  [sad]  In 2005 I installed a 450 sf bluestone patio. And knowing that I would SOON be building a new garage, I decided to run 4 each, 2" pvc conduit runs under the patio and to within 3' of the old garage. The thought was any services such as gas, water, electricity that were needed from the house could be contained within the conduits.

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Fast forward to 2023 and the inspector informed me that gas service from the house to the garage had to enter each structure above ground. I'm fine with the garage but the house service is about 20" below the soil. So I need to dig down 20", cut the conduit and elbow it up to enter the house above ground. The ground is frozen and there is an AC unit that's in the way...so, not something that will happen this year.  [sad]

So, I've been thinking about installing an electric boiler and monitoring what it costs to heat the garage. The plan is to also install some solar panels on the roof so they may offset the electric boiler heating costs...we'll see what shakes out.

Electric boiler, easy fix but expensive to run, gas boiler, difficult fix but much cheaper to run...the conundrum. [smile]

In regards to the blend valve, I'm running 2 different zones. One for the garage in-floor pex and one for the attic under-floor pex each one controlled by a separate thermostat and pump.