Down with the old & Up with the new
- Thread starter Cheese
- Start date
You would need a crystal ball to guess which will be cheaper in 5 or 10 years: Gas or electric.
Politicians routinely pass laws with restrictions on products before replacements are available.
Think of asbestos brakes for cars. The original replacements cost twice as much and lasted half as long.
And Freon for air conditioning. You had to replace the compressor, or live with poor performance (or pay for black market real Freon).
So, there is no telling if gas will be cheaper or even legal to use in 5 or 10 years. Electricity cost will be subject to whatever they use to generate that electricity.
I used to think hydropower was the kindest to the environment, but diverting river flow seems risky too. No easy answers.
Man plans, God laughs.
Politicians routinely pass laws with restrictions on products before replacements are available.
Think of asbestos brakes for cars. The original replacements cost twice as much and lasted half as long.
And Freon for air conditioning. You had to replace the compressor, or live with poor performance (or pay for black market real Freon).
So, there is no telling if gas will be cheaper or even legal to use in 5 or 10 years. Electricity cost will be subject to whatever they use to generate that electricity.
I used to think hydropower was the kindest to the environment, but diverting river flow seems risky too. No easy answers.
Man plans, God laughs.
I just got this ad from Northern Tool. Call them prescient, but they sent a flyer on garage heaters (electric).
A good deal, but exactly the same price as Amazon.
But at $120.00, a cheap way to get some instant heat when you need it.
https://www.northerntool.com/produc...Khf4dKUwiskzHWBHQZRoCA64QAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds
A good deal, but exactly the same price as Amazon.
But at $120.00, a cheap way to get some instant heat when you need it.
https://www.northerntool.com/produc...Khf4dKUwiskzHWBHQZRoCA64QAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds
rmwarren
Member
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2010
- Messages
- 3,063
Packard said:
In my case I leave it on around 40 degrees December thru March. In addition to heating it stops the condensation cycle that causes surface rust on everything. Also I don't worry about leaving liquids, finishes and adhesives in there year round.
The panel is 240V connected to a 24v contactor and garage t-stat, I'm not totally sure but estimate it cycles on about 8 hours a day. At our kWh cost this equates to about a dollar a day, acceptable to me.
RMW
Cheese
Member
- Joined
- Jan 16, 2015
- Messages
- 12,502
Richard/RMW said:
A buck a day would be acceptable to me also Richard...one can only hope. [big grin] The condensation issue is also a concern as I plan on hauling my roll cab with Snap-on tools into the garage. I've been storing them in the basement specifically because of the outside condensation issues. Not the most convenient way to work on vehicles. [sad]
So, back to the 3" pvc conduit for the buried electrical connection because the electrical people are arriving tomorrow to install the meter & the inside 200 amp service.
As I mentioned previously, I chopped most of the frost out with a rotary hammer but there were still some sporadic pockets of frost that I cut out with a SAWZALL. [big grin] And then I hit the unexpected, the compacted soil that has resided in the same location since 1952. While not frozen, it certainly was compacted more than I expected. Between tree roots, rocks and the compacted soil this task was not going to get easier anytime soon.
Over the last several years I've pretty much eliminated most of my corded Milwaukee drills. I have a 1/4" Holeshooter and a 1/2" Holeshooter left for back-up and that's about it.
However, my favorite Large Format Milwaukee drill is the 1854 and that will be the last man standing for corded drills. It draws 13 amps, spins at 350 rpm, has a 3/4" Jacobs chuck and weighs about
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=4]
So, after some inflection, I decided to use the 1854 and a 2-1/2" auger bit to loosen up the compacted soil and to ease the removal of it with a narrow spade. That worked extremely well but you still have to be careful, hitting a root even with a small diameter auger bit, can be an issue.
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
At any rate, the pvc conduit is installed/buried and the Sparktricians will arrive tomorrow for the meter/panel install. [cool]
On to the next garage crisis.
Attachments
mino
Member
- Joined
- May 5, 2016
- Messages
- 1,984
Generally /bar one being in the EU */ the (natural) gas or coal will always be cheaper than electricity. With a heat pump it gets a bit complicated but even then a 4:1 heat pum gets to about 1:1 of the total costs once the gas->electricity->heatpump cycle is accounted for.Packard said:
Reason being that electricity is "concentrated" energy entropy-wise. Gas is way less than that. So while it is pretty hard to make electricity from gas (big losses) you can make heat from electricity directly the same as from gas. And since we still produce a lof of electricity from gas it makes more sense to just burn the gas directly.
Even ecologically, it is utterly stupid to burn gas to generate electricity (with like 40% efficiency) instead of just burning it directly for heat with like 110% efficiency and skiping a whole pile of secondary environmental costs.
So in places you need to heat a lot during winter, and do not need much/any AC (where a heat pump gets interesting), gas wins. Both on total lifecycle carbon emissions and raw cost.
Once one gets to nicer climates where it is about 1/3 AC and 2/3 heating, it evens out and in a hotter climate it goes clearly to electricity.
*/ All that goes outa windows in the EU. These days ideology wins so not long-term planning is possible. So solar + gas and ideally wood as auxiliary is probably best even where there is little sun during the winter. But that is more so that one gets at least some electricity and some heat when some smart fella decides rationing is a good idea 5 yrs down the line. Erm. At that point it becomes more about safety (from freezing) than costs, so kinda a different debate.
bobtskutter
Member
- Joined
- Jun 5, 2021
- Messages
- 365
[scared]
That is one beast of a drill! You must have arms like The Hulk.
Bob
Cheese
Member
- Joined
- Jan 16, 2015
- Messages
- 12,502
bobtskutter said:
Bob, that's funny...at one time I did have arms like the Hulk, but at 75, I now have arms like Bambi. [smile]
I'm serious when I say this drill has the capability to fracture your arm if you're not cautious. Anything that can drive an 8" auger and not stall out is a seriously dangerous tool. [cool]
Current hole augering tools have a quick release clutch that de-couples when the auger hits a large rock. This item does not, this item was bastardized to perform a function it was never intended to do...and so it goes...user beware. [big grin]
bobtskutter
Member
- Joined
- Jun 5, 2021
- Messages
- 365
...going off topic now (sorry)
I use one of these for post hole digginghttps://roughneck-tools.com/en/prod...ls/fencing-tools/post-hole-digger-dual-pivot/
It has a dual pivot mechanism so it can go straight down without needing s huge hole. It think it goes down about 3ft with an 8inch hole.
I also use of these to break the ground uphttps://www.diy-fence.co.uk/product/post-hole-digging-bar-6ft-x-1inch/
You need to be carefull with the digging bar, if you drop it in the hole and it hits a PVC drain it can bounce back up!
Bob
I use one of these for post hole digginghttps://roughneck-tools.com/en/prod...ls/fencing-tools/post-hole-digger-dual-pivot/
It has a dual pivot mechanism so it can go straight down without needing s huge hole. It think it goes down about 3ft with an 8inch hole.
I also use of these to break the ground uphttps://www.diy-fence.co.uk/product/post-hole-digging-bar-6ft-x-1inch/
You need to be carefull with the digging bar, if you drop it in the hole and it hits a PVC drain it can bounce back up!
Bob
Cheese
Member
- Joined
- Jan 16, 2015
- Messages
- 12,502
bobtskutter said:
Ya, I'm more than familiar with the first item, I used those to install a split rail fence at my friends summer lake home...in rocky soil. [crying] That was a 5 day adventure I'll never forget. [smile]
How do you use the digging bar? Just keep repeatedly dropping it in the hole?
Thread drift warning [big grin] When I was around 5 years my mom's twin brothers were putting up fence at the farm and used one of those larger auger bucket style hand post hole diggers to dig for the larger corner posts.
They thought it was fun to scoop me up and drop me in the hole to see how deep it was. [eek]
Ron
They thought it was fun to scoop me up and drop me in the hole to see how deep it was. [eek]
Ron
Cheese
Member
- Joined
- Jan 16, 2015
- Messages
- 12,502
rvieceli said:
That's funny Ron...it's interesting to note how drastically times have changed. Today that wouldn't go over well with the authorities.
It rather reminds me of burying my sister up to her neck (and she thought it was fun) in a sand pit and let her reside there for about an hour before I "rescued" her.
Cheese
Member
- Joined
- Jan 16, 2015
- Messages
- 12,502
jeffinsgf said:
No scorpions involved Jeff...but I sure wish cameras had been invented by then [tongue] because her children would have been the first to receive the photos. [smile]
So, I've been very busy with the inside details trying to wrap up certain issues, pass inspections and continue the forward momentum. The garage is completely weathered-in at this stage but the exterior will look like this until next spring. Everything is primed HARDIE® PLANK but the current overnight temps and short temperature windows don't really allow for any painting at this time. By the time the siding warms up, there's only 1-2 hours before the temps go south again.
Here's the electrical meter box up and ready to go...slight problem...no service connection until February. Don't get me started on this one. [mad]
[attachimg=1]
This is why I like the Arlington boxes...they literally disappear into the wall.
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
Alley side and back yard side. The service door is temporary, the real-deal is supposed to be installed on the 18th...let's see how that goes.
[attachimg=4]
[attachimg=5]
Here's a shot looking down on the back yard. I expect there will be major modifications to the gardens next year knowing my wife. [smile]
[attachimg=6]
And a view to the West which overlooks the Canadian Pacific trackage. Over the years this has brought just a ton of enjoyment to the entire neighborhood. From the yearly Christmas Train to live steam train runs every couple of years. It's pretty awesome to see, hear and feel a real live steam giant navigating one of the longest, continuous uphill inclines at 2.2%.
Even for diesel/electrics it's not unusual to see 4 engines pulling and a pusher in the middle or at the end.
[attachimg=7]
[attachimg=8]
Finally, a shot of the inside upstairs attic area. Should be enchanting in the summer months. [cool]
[attachimg=9]
Things got a bit out of order...certainly isn't the first time.
[attachimg=9]
Attachments
bobtskutter
Member
- Joined
- Jun 5, 2021
- Messages
- 365
The work shop looks excellent. Being able to view steam trains out of the window is an extra bonus!
Yes, that's it. I use it a little like a spear, drop / throw it down the hole and use the grabber "thing" to lift the soil out. It cuts through roots and bricks pretty good as well. Just make sure you're wearing steel toed boots.
Bob
Yes, that's it. I use it a little like a spear, drop / throw it down the hole and use the grabber "thing" to lift the soil out. It cuts through roots and bricks pretty good as well. Just make sure you're wearing steel toed boots.
Bob
Seems unreasonable on the electrical since they just have to drop wires and maybe add a transformer. [sad]
What's the plan for the interior? Did I see Rock wool on the bottom part? Is everything being sheet rocked?
Can you do the electrical yourself or do you have to use a licensed electrician?
Ron
What's the plan for the interior? Did I see Rock wool on the bottom part? Is everything being sheet rocked?
Can you do the electrical yourself or do you have to use a licensed electrician?
Ron
Cheese
Member
- Joined
- Jan 16, 2015
- Messages
- 12,502
Ya Ron, it does seem unreasonable...but then unfortunately, local government intervenes. [mad]rvieceli said:
Typically, all of the Twin Cities permits are handled through the internet so that all the scheduling issues are handled efficiently, electronically & automatically to expedite every request. Sounds good so far...
The initial garage electrical inspection was supposed to happen on 12/11/23, but when no one showed up I became curious. It seems that for structures "in or close to the the historical district" of the city, those permits are not internet driven but are handled one at a time by hand...seems like that group is 6+ weeks behind in the issuing of permits (is that surprising?)...thus Xcel Energy is also 6+ weeks behind in electrical connections. So, what was supposed to be a mid-November connection is null & void and it appears to now be a mid-January to February connection...hopefully.
I get that the hysterical district want's to make sure that new buildings with orange siding, green metal roofs and purple trim are not erected next to stone buildings built in the 1850's, but this isn't about colors, materials or windows...just connect the flipping electricity.
The plan for the interior is sheet rock. I'm in the process of insulating the north side firewall minus any cavities that have electricity installed so that the electrical inspection, whenever that happens, goes smoothly. After the electrical inspection, then I can finish insulating the remaining wall cavities, install the vapor barrier and the fire wall installation can proceed.
I know I've vented on this before but this is the reason I prefer to do 90% of these tasks myself. It seems everyone has an excuse as to why they CAN'T complete the job as opposed to why they CAN complete the job. Every trade seems to blame every other trade for not upholding their part of the deal. The framers blame the concrete people, the roofers blame the framers, the siders blame the roofers, the electricians (which are probably the messiest of the bunch) blame everybody within earshot. Just let me muddle through it by myself...I'll take care of it and the rest of you can argue amongst yourselves.
Ya I'm doing most (90%) of the finishing myself, I just can't afford the prices. So that would be all the electricity, insulation, drywall, taping, mudding & painting and then we move to the outside of the structure...
As an example, the day the electricians arrived, I suddenly realized that once the fire wall was finished, any additional electrical service I wanted in the fire wall area would have to be installed by myself. That would mean this 75 year old guy would be removing 12 foot sheets of drywall to install the electrical wiring...that doesn't sound like a good thing. [smile]
So, on a moments notice I enquired if the electricians could install an additional 2 each 120V outlets and a 240V/50amp outlet on the same wall as they were already installing a garage door opener circuit.
I offered up the usual prerequisite...cash but that didn't go anywhere. [sad]
So the next step was for the electrician to call in and get an estimate from the home office.
So the quote came back, $500 for 20' of 14 gauge Romex and 12' of 6 gauge 240 wire...boxes included but no outlets. How can average folks afford these prices? Well, I buckled because I was expecting to have an inspection within 2 days...well that didn't happen. [mad]
And on we go...this reminds me of when I was sailing in the Virgin Islands...everyday was an adventure. [cool] then...not so [cool] now.
Ouch on the electrical, Cheese. I feel your pain. But I like where you're going with this project.
When I first built my shop, I hung all of the electrical boxes in the wall cavities prior to drywall. A few years later I regretted that when I wanted to add some outlets and switches. Now I've got all boxes surface mounted to the drywall with exposed EMT conduit between them. Makes for much easier modifications down the road. And all outlets are minimum 48" above the floor, so a sheet of plywood stored along the wall doesn't obstruct the outlets. Of course I'm not sure if this is legal in your jurisdiction. But I don't mind the electrical being exposed like that. Sometimes, the EMT even makes it easy to hang things (like spring clamps). Just my $.02. Good luck.
When I first built my shop, I hung all of the electrical boxes in the wall cavities prior to drywall. A few years later I regretted that when I wanted to add some outlets and switches. Now I've got all boxes surface mounted to the drywall with exposed EMT conduit between them. Makes for much easier modifications down the road. And all outlets are minimum 48" above the floor, so a sheet of plywood stored along the wall doesn't obstruct the outlets. Of course I'm not sure if this is legal in your jurisdiction. But I don't mind the electrical being exposed like that. Sometimes, the EMT even makes it easy to hang things (like spring clamps). Just my $.02. Good luck.
Cheese
Member
- Joined
- Jan 16, 2015
- Messages
- 12,502
BarneyD said:
We're on the same wave length Barney... [big grin] For me there were 2 considerations, how to easily rewire in the future and filling the stud cavity with the max amount of insulation because it's a northern wall. So, simply mounting the box ON the wall instead of IN the wall solved both of those issues.
[attachimg=1]
